View Full Version : Israel rejects Middle East nuclear talks plan
Snow Crash
05-29-2010, 02:05 PM
Israel says it will not take part in a conference aimed at achieving a nuclear-arms free Middle East, proposed at a UN meeting in New York.
Nearly 200 nations, signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), backed plans for the meeting in 2012.
In a document agreed at the talks, Israel was singled out for criticism.
Israel, which has not signed the NPT, dismissed the document as "deeply flawed" and "hypocritical".
"It ignores the realities of the Middle East and the real threats facing the region and the entire world," the Israeli government said in a statement quoted by the AFP news agency.
"Given the distorted nature of this resolution, Israel will not be able to take part in its implementation."
The statement was issued in Canada, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is visiting.
Some 189 nations agreed to the 28-page document following a month-long conference on strengthening the NPT, the cornerstone of global disarmament efforts.
The document urged Israel to sign the NPT, but did not mention Iran, a nation widely suspected of having a nuclear-weapons programme.
Analysts say this was a diplomatic victory for Iran, which denies seeking a nuclear weapon.
The US was among the nations who agreed the document, but warned that the reference to Israel could jeopardise efforts to persuade the Israelis to attend the proposed talks
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10191339.stm)
What COLOSSAL fucking hypocrisy! I take it by "distorted nature of this resolution" what the Israeli Government actually means is "we are The Chosen Ones, how dare you say we should practice what we preach".
Muthafukkas...
cerebcat
05-30-2010, 12:15 AM
To think that Israel would ever reduce their stockpile, is naiive. I don't perceive it's because they think they are "the chosen ones". In light of some of the comments made by the little shit (i'm not bothering to try and spell his name) in Iran, I can't blame the Israeli's. On the issue of settlements however, I can't support Israel.
Cere
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 12:28 AM
To think that Israel would ever reduce their stockpile, is naiive. I don't perceive it's because they think they are "the chosen ones". In light of some of the comments made by the little shit (i'm not bothering to try and spell his name) in Iran, I can't blame the Israeli's. On the issue of settlements however, I can't support Israel.
Cere
You mean Ahmadinejad. And Israel had nukes long before he got into office. And they came very close to using one on Cairo. The whole "Israel needs nukes because of Iran" argument fails simply because of the timeline of Israel's WMD programs compared to that of Iran's. In fact, if anything, Iran needs nukes to create a MAD scenario so the Israelis will have to think twice before bullying their way around the middle east, as they are so fond of doing.
And yes, it is very much an issue stemming from the attitudes fostered by Zionism. Divine rights to be an Apartheid, nuclear armed, terrorist state, and all that jazz. Everyone else is scum. How dare you ask that they act in a civilised manner.
It seems obvious that Iran will not deny their own weapons given that Israel is armed. It makes it difficult to fault Iran only on that point.
I think if N. Korea get aggressive it will further hurt Iran's position with the west. Does the rest of the mid east not feel any threat from a nuclear Iran? Sort of sounds that way or it is just game to discredit Israel.
Bottom lines is that nukes are not going away.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 12:47 AM
It seems obvious that Iran will not deny their own weapons given that Israel is armed. It makes it difficult to fault Iran only on that point.
I think if N. Korea get aggressive it will further hurt Iran's position with the west. Does the rest of the mid east not feel any threat from a nuclear Iran? Sort of sounds that way or it is just game to discredit Israel.
Bottom lines is that nukes are not going away.
I think the Middle East fears a nuclear Israel more than a nuclear Iran. I also think most of the Middle East realise that balance is needed, because some folks are too used to chucking their weight around without threat of a huge fuck you in return.
If you believe the rumours, Saudi Arabia may have nukes or may be one of these nations that has the ability to put them together. Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabist state that fancies itself as a heavyweight in the Middle East arena. They have a reason to fear a nuclear Iran, because they love to operate against Iran, and would have to reel themselves in a bit. The animousity is mostly based off the whole Sunni/Shia divide (though some SUnnis would argue that Wahhabism is to Sunni Islam what Zionism is to Judaism, ie, a perversion of the faith).
I would think the Saudis are lined up just behind Israel for backing by the US. The Bushs have big ties and I bet so do others. If it came down to them needing nukes I bet some one we all know would supply them.
Royal
05-30-2010, 01:33 AM
eh, Jewden.
Royal
05-30-2010, 01:57 AM
Nasty guys.
They can't get exterminated. If they can't do it on amkon, well...
Never fuck with guys with nukes.
cerebcat
05-30-2010, 02:37 AM
You mean Ahmadinejad. And Israel had nukes long before he got into office. And they came very close to using one on Cairo. The whole "Israel needs nukes because of Iran" argument fails simply because of the timeline of Israel's WMD programs compared to that of Iran's. In fact, if anything, Iran needs nukes to create a MAD scenario so the Israelis will have to think twice before bullying their way around the middle east, as they are so fond of doing.
And yes, it is very much an issue stemming from the attitudes fostered by Zionism. Divine rights to be an Apartheid, nuclear armed, terrorist state, and all that jazz. Everyone else is scum. How dare you ask that they act in a civilised manner.
Yes I am aware of how long Israel has had nuclear weapons. Ahma is not the first middle east leader to question Israel's right to exist as a nation. And as a nation Israel has the right to protect itself, and this probably includes keeping the detail of its arsenal a secret. Try, for just a moment, to put yourself in their shoes. If you were the leader of this country in the sea of Arab countries, knowing all the history of the middle (mistakes aside) what would you do? Honestly.
Yes, Iran's acquiring of nuclear weapons could be seen as creating a balance of power in the middle east and I believe they will achieve this, if they haven't already. Correct me if I am wrong, but at present there are several nations not signed on to the NNPT agreement (India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea). So why are you signalling out Israel? Personally, I would be a lot more concerned about North Korea and possibly Pakistan. Can you see the Israelis selling weapons to fundamentalist terrorists? I don't think so. I won't get in to how the middle east was destablized by the taking out of Sadam or how Iran should be thankful to Israel for taking out Sadam's nuclear power plant.
I abhor this practice also (aparteid, zionism). But through oh so many discussions and arguments with Israeli friends, I can also see their side. The "right of return" could, in time, drastically change the character and customs of their nation. Were Arabs (acknowledging that some are Christians as well as muslim) to become a majority in Israel, what guarantees would the minority( Israelis) have in regards to their relgion and customs.
I guess this is a challenge many countries face. I see a parallel in those Americans who harbour a fear of the influx of Hispanics. In the last election they did represent an important voting block. I see issues in my own cournty even though multi-culturism his heavily promoted.
If you ask me to cut to the chase and tell you where I stand, my answer would be to let nature and evolution take its course. It could be tough going in the short term because people fear change; but 100 or 200 years from now it may no longer be an issue.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Cere
Royal
05-30-2010, 03:06 AM
Never fuck with guys with nukes.
Japanese are like "lol".
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 10:54 AM
Yes I am aware of how long Israel has had nuclear weapons. Ahma is not the first middle east leader to question Israel's right to exist as a nation. And as a nation Israel has the right to protect itself, and this probably includes keeping the detail of its arsenal a secret. Try, for just a moment, to put yourself in their shoes. If you were the leader of this country in the sea of Arab countries, knowing all the history of the middle (mistakes aside) what would you do? Honestly.
Amusing. You say that Israel has the right to protect itself, and thus has the right to nuclear weapons, yet Iran does not? Why is Israel above having its WMD's investigated, yet Iran is fair game? And incidently, while we're discussing right to exist, what about the Palestinians right to exist? What about the Lebanon's right to not have its sovereignty violated constantly?
This is the kind of hypocrisy that makes it hard to take Israel seriously. They want respect, yet show absolutely ZERO to even their Sugar Daddies in Europe and the US.
And in answer to your question, if I were the Israeli leader, I'd probably go the way of Rabin and get shot by one of my own colonists, as I would be in favour of using words instead of threats to solve my nation's issues. I believe it was Roosevelt who said "walk softly and carry a big stick". Israel runs around threatening to hit people with the big stick constantly. That's not the way to peace. That's the way to make others want big sticks to retalliate with.
Yes, Iran's acquiring of nuclear weapons could be seen as creating a balance of power in the middle east and I believe they will achieve this, if they haven't already. Correct me if I am wrong, but at present there are several nations not signed on to the NNPT agreement (India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea). So why are you signalling out Israel?
Firstly, because Israel is the subject of the news article, secondly because Israel believes it is a divine nation yet exports terrorism, practices apartheid, and threatens its neighbours constantly, and thirdly, you assume I am comfortable with people like Kim Jong Il having nuclear weapons, an assumption that I assure you is deeply flawed.
Personally, I would be a lot more concerned about North Korea and possibly Pakistan. Can you see the Israelis selling weapons to fundamentalist terrorists? I don't think so. I won't get in to how the middle east was destablized by the taking out of Sadam or how Iran should be thankful to Israel for taking out Sadam's nuclear power plant.
Do you have evidence that Pakistan or North Korea has sold elements of their nuclear program to 'fundementalist terrorists'? And just in case you're wondering if Israel would bite the hand that feeds it, I suggest you look into Israel selling weapons tech to the Chinese.
Oh, and please don't make out that Israel took out Saddam's nuclear plant for Iran's benefit. Israel was serving itself. And incidently, if the West weren't so eager to fund and arm Saddam, then perhaps he wouldn't have had any WMD to use against his enemies, let alone nuclear weapons.
I abhor this practice also (aparteid, zionism). But through oh so many discussions and arguments with Israeli friends, I can also see their side. The "right of return" could, in time, drastically change the character and customs of their nation. Were Arabs (acknowledging that some are Christians as well as muslim) to become a majority in Israel, what guarantees would the minority( Israelis) have in regards to their relgion and customs.
Well unfortunately, due to the actions of the Israelis, should Arabs somehow get out of this Apartheid situation, and somehow be allowed to be part of the nation of Israel rather than subhuman autoterrorists, then the Israelis cannot realistically espect anything less than to receive some MAJOR karma. It could have been avoided, but that's what you get when you create a country off the back of religious fundementalist extremism, bigotry, hatred, and facism. Perhaps if the Israeli government, the military, and the settlers werent so hell bent on fucking everyone over, maybe they wouldnt need security checkpoints everywhere. Maybe they woudln't need a wall to keep out those evil, evil Palestinians. Maybe they wouldn't be so paranoid about Iran. Maybe they wouldn't feel the need to turn the Gaza Strip into the Warsaw Ghetto. Maybe they wouldn't have to be worried about Hezbollah handing their arse to them.
But that is no excuse not to try and start talking. I hope for the day when the Likudniks get the boot, and the settlers and the military get told to fuck off. But I tell ya, if I was the Israeli leader who pulled off that miracle, I sure as shit would not let my guard down for a second, because the Zionist Taleban would be gunning for me big style.
I guess this is a challenge many countries face. I see a parallel in those Americans who harbour a fear of the influx of Hispanics. In the last election they did represent an important voting block. I see issues in my own cournty even though multi-culturism his heavily promoted.
I am interested to see how you can compare what is going on with the situation in Israel to hispanics in the US. Does the US frequently send tanks into Miami to kill off a few leaders of the hispanic community here and there? A few helicopter gunships maybe? What about a naval blockade? State sponsored famine? I don't see the US walling off a section where there is a large hispanic community, then importing rednecks from Tennessee to start occupying land owned by hispanic families.
Point is, there are massive and obvious differences between immigration, and Apartheid.
If you ask me to cut to the chase and tell you where I stand, my answer would be to let nature and evolution take its course. It could be tough going in the short term because people fear change; but 100 or 200 years from now it may no longer be an issue.
Maybe it won't, maybe it will. I guess it all depends on two things: will Israel manage to wipe out the Palestinians in that time, or will they grow up and realise that their current path is incredibly flawed.
I am not holding my breath on the latter. I don't think Israel will grow up as long as the US and Europe continue to cover for their bullshit.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 12:45 PM
the timeline of Israel's WMD programs
Abbreviated : USA
We are Israels WalMart of weapons.
Originally Posted by cerebcat http://amkon.net/Styles/DARK_VB%20GREEN/dark_vb/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://amkon.net/showthread.php?p=429446#post429446)
Yes I am aware of how long Israel has had nuclear weapons. Ahma is not the first middle east leader to question Israel's right to exist as a nation. And as a nation Israel has the right to protect itself, and this probably includes keeping the detail of its arsenal a secret. Try, for just a moment, to put yourself in their shoes. If you were the leader of this country in the sea of Arab countries, knowing all the history of the middle (mistakes aside) what would you do? Honestly.
Point well taken. That is exactly the Israeli view of the world. Iran needs to get its own fucked up house in order before it lectures the Israelis on human rights.
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/IranHangsWoman.jpg
cerebcat
05-30-2010, 08:43 PM
Amusing. You say that Israel has the right to protect itself, and thus has the right to nuclear weapons, yet Iran does not? Why is Israel above having its WMD's investigated, yet Iran is fair game? And incidently, while we're discussing right to exist, what about the Palestinians right to exist? What about the Lebanon's right to not have its sovereignty violated constantly?
I don't believe I ever stated that Iran has no right to nuclear weapons. I only wondered why you singled out Israel. Ah, I see your reply below; the subject was Israel and I'm looking at the overall situation. Then I can't answer you, because I can't ignore the 3 orther nations, who, like Israel, are not part of NNPT.
This is the kind of hypocrisy that makes it hard to take Israel seriously. They want respect, yet show absolutely ZERO to even their Sugar Daddies in Europe and the US.
They're a sovereign nation and I don't recall them trying to curry respectability from other nations; quite the opposite;but further below.
And in answer to your question, if I were the Israeli leader, I'd probably go the way of Rabin and get shot by one of my own colonists, as I would be in favour of using words instead of threats to solve my nation's issues. I believe it was Roosevelt who said "walk softly and carry a big stick". Israel runs around threatening to hit people with the big stick constantly. That's not the way to peace. That's the way to make others want big sticks to retalliate with.
Then you would be dead, and in no position to protect your citizens. I asked you to put aside the mistakes and history.
Firstly, because Israel is the subject of the news article, secondly because Israel believes it is a divine nation yet exports terrorism, practices apartheid, and threatens its neighbours constantly, and thirdly, you assume I am comfortable with people like Kim Jong Il having nuclear weapons, an assumption that I assure you is deeply flawed.
Kim Jong. Actually, this is not what I assumed. I was merely looking for some balance.
Do you have evidence that Pakistan or North Korea has sold elements of their nuclear program to 'fundementalist terrorists'? And just in case you're wondering if Israel would bite the hand that feeds it, I suggest you look into Israel selling weapons tech to the Chinese.
I didn't claim to know this as a fact, only that it was a possibility. And I didn't know that Chinese terrorists were a world threat; although I'm sure they would be a threat to the Chinese government. China is not a rogue state although I acknowledge that they may well be on their way to becoming the next world power.
Oh, and please don't make out that Israel took out Saddam's nuclear plant for Iran's benefit. Israel was serving itself. And incidently, if the West weren't so eager to fund and arm Saddam, then perhaps he wouldn't have had any WMD to use against his enemies, let alone nuclear weapons.
Of course it was self serving. But you can't deny that Iran benefited. Iraq was Iran's closest and most immediate threat. On your second point, I am in full agreement.
Well unfortunately, due to the actions of the Israelis, should Arabs somehow get out of this Apartheid situation, and somehow be allowed to be part of the nation of Israel rather than subhuman autoterrorists, then the Israelis cannot realistically espect anything less than to receive some MAJOR karma. It could have been avoided, but that's what you get when you create a country off the back of religious fundementalist extremism, bigotry, hatred, and facism. Perhaps if the Israeli government, the military, and the settlers werent so hell bent on fucking everyone over, maybe they wouldnt need security checkpoints everywhere. Maybe they woudln't need a wall to keep out those evil, evil Palestinians. Maybe they wouldn't be so paranoid about Iran. Maybe they wouldn't feel the need to turn the Gaza Strip into the Warsaw Ghetto. Maybe they wouldn't have to be worried about Hezbollah handing their arse to them.
Settlements and the breaking of treaties is the issue I have with Israel. As well as a refusal to support a Palestinian state. But bigotry, hatred and extremism exists on both sides making me unable to fully support either. And caught in the middle are those sincere souls (both Arab and Israeli) who have a firm belief that they can live side by side in peace. They do have my support.
But that is no excuse not to try and start talking. I hope for the day when the Likudniks get the boot, and the settlers and the military get told to fuck off. But I tell ya, if I was the Israeli leader who pulled off that miracle, I sure as shit would not let my guard down for a second, because the Zionist Taleban would be gunning for me big style.
Trust has been destroyed, and may take several generations to rebuild. We need some imaginative thinking here. I don't see much around, do you?
I am interested to see how you can compare what is going on with the situation in Israel to hispanics in the US. Does the US frequently send tanks into Miami to kill off a few leaders of the hispanic community here and there? A few helicopter gunships maybe? What about a naval blockade? State sponsored famine? I don't see the US walling off a section where there is a large hispanic community, then importing rednecks from Tennessee to start occupying land owned by hispanic families.
Point is, there are massive and obvious differences between immigration, and Apartheid.
The comparison I'm making is in zenophobia and the possible need to accommodate sizeable cultural groups. Segregation/aparteid/ghettoization needs no physical border or military protection to exist.
Maybe it won't, maybe it will. I guess it all depends on two things: will Israel manage to wipe out the Palestinians in that time, or will they grow up and realise that their current path is incredibly flawed.
I am not holding my breath on the latter. I don't think Israel will grow up as long as the US and Europe continue to cover for their bullshit.
I have tremendous hope in future generations and believe that there will be growth in both quarters. A lot can change in the next 50 years.
Again, thanks for the great discussion.
Cere
cerebcat
05-30-2010, 08:48 PM
I would think the Saudis are lined up just behind Israel for backing by the US. The Bushs have big ties and I bet so do others. If it came down to them needing nukes I bet some one we all know would supply them.
I think the Saudi regime talks out of both sides of its mouth.
Cere
The fact that Israel is singled out as somehow the world's most blatant violator of human rights indicates a certain latent tenor of antisemitism.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 10:12 PM
They're a sovereign nation and I don't recall them trying to curry respectability from other nations; quite the opposite;but further below.
If they don't care what other people think, then why do they make such a meal out of people not recognising them as a nation? I believe Israel desperately wants to be taken seriously, hence all the work their allies put into forcing them on the people of the world.
Then you would be dead, and in no position to protect your citizens. I asked you to put aside the mistakes and history.
You still have my answer. But to ignore 'mistakes' (because a settler assassinating his prime minister for daring to work for peace is obviously a 'mistake') and history is quite foolish.
I didn't claim to know this as a fact, only that it was a possibility. And I didn't know that Chinese terrorists were a world threat; although I'm sure they would be a threat to the Chinese government. China is not a rogue state although I acknowledge that they may well be on their way to becoming the next world power.
Quick question, because I am curious to know what kind of person I am talking to here: what do you define as a 'rogue state'?
And you asked me if I could see Israel selling weapons to terrorists, implying that you believe North Korea and Iran to have sold WMD's to terrorist groups. I am asking if you have any proof, or if that is just something you saw on the news.
And incidently, I was not limiting my comment to 'terrorists', as that is incredibly narrow minded and short sighted. So when I say CHina, I mean the Government in Beijing. I am demonstrating that Israel is regularly biting the hand that feeds it.
Trust has been destroyed, and may take several generations to rebuild. We need some imaginative thinking here. I don't see much around, do you?
Oh its there. It just cant be heard at the moment. But I am curious, what would you ask such imaginative thinking to bring about? What could you imagine as a solution?
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 10:13 PM
The fact that Israel is singled out as somehow the world's most blatant violator of human rights indicates a certain latent tenor of antisemitism.
Haha... wowwwww.... and I really thought you were above playing the anti-semite card.
It's not a 'card' it's a factor in world affairs. Any clear thinker will recognize it. It's the reason we reserve our animus for a tiny country like Israel while ignoring worse offenders such as N. Korea, China, Iran, Zimbabwe, and on and on.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 10:34 PM
It's not a 'card' it's a factor in world affairs. Any clear thinker will recognize it.
It IS a card.
Ask IEF.
What the hell does IEF have to do with it? Did I miss something?
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 10:39 PM
It's not a 'card' it's a factor in world affairs. Any clear thinker will recognize it. It's the reason we reserve our animus for a tiny country like Israel while ignoring worse offenders such as N. Korea, China, Iran, Zimbabwe, and on and on.
Who ignores them? You're just playing the card because you're having issues defending Israel. And if your comment about anti semitism is aimed at me, then you can fuck STRAIGHT off.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 10:40 PM
What the hell does IEF have to do with it? Did I miss something?
Obviously.
I'm not defending Israel. I'm simply stating that there's an additional reason that somehow it's condemned as the most evil nation in the world- in fact that it's very right to exist as a nation is called into question. It was not very many years ago that this same social pathology was raised to a matter of policy and millions were stuffed into ovens for its sake. You think that's dead and buried after just 65 years? Take a good look at yourself.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 10:51 PM
Exactly what?
Oh, come on.
The same card as Race.
Surely you see that ?
No I don't. Not even IEF would conflate his struggles with bigotry to the holocaust. We all have our issues.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 10:55 PM
No I don't. Not even IEF would conflate his struggles with bigotry to the holocaust. We all have our issues.
:facepalm:
It's all about bigotry, in the end.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 10:55 PM
I'm not defending Israel. I'm simply stating that there's an additional reason that somehow it's condemned as the most evil nation in the world- in fact that it's very right to exist as a nation is called into question. It was not very many years ago that this same social pathology was raised to a matter of policy and millions were stuffed into ovens for its sake. You think that's dead and buried after just 65 years? Take a good look at yourself.
Oh, so now I am a Nazi? Jesus... fucking... christ...
Actually, I am kinda glad you brought the Nazis up, because that brings something that needs to be considered next time you decide to play the anti-semite card: Has it ever occured to you that Israel bleating on and on and on and on about the Holocaust as a means of guilt tripping people into doing its bidding is so outrageously hypocritical when you see what it does to the Palestinians? If it would not completely blow their ace in the hole out of the water, you can bet your bollocks to a fucking barndance some fuckers in israel would be advocating orderly disposal of undesirable subhumans. Can you not see how that sheer hypocrisy makes them lower than a snake's bollock, aside from the atrocities they commit?
Shit, even ACTUAL holocaust survivors in Israel have commented on how sickened they are by Israel's apparent desire to emulate the Nazis.
It's all about bigotry, in the end. And it's all about relative degrees and consequence. Moral equivalencies the stuff of shallow thinkers.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 10:59 PM
And it's all about relative degrees and consequence. Moral equivalencies the stuff of shallow thinkers.
Oddly, we agree.
Just because I point it out, doesn't
mean I adhere to it.
Oh, so now I am a Nazi? Jesus... fucking... christ...
Actually, I am kinda glad you brought the Nazis up, because that brings something that needs to be considered next time you decide to play the anti-semite card: Has it ever occured to you that Israel bleating on and on and on and on about the Holocaust as a means of guilt tripping people into doing its bidding is so outrageously hypocritical when you see what it does to the Palestinians? If it would not completely blow their ace in the hole out of the water, you can bet your bollocks to a fucking barndance some fuckers in israel would be advocating orderly disposal of undesirable subhumans. Can you not see how that sheer hypocrisy makes them lower than a snake's bollock, aside from the atrocities they commit?
Shit, even ACTUAL holocaust survivors in Israel have commented on how sickened they are by Israel's apparent desire to emulate the Nazis.
I'm no friend of Zionism and Likudniks. But i do recognize the historical context in which they arose. And I also see that there are possible solutions to the Palestinian/Israeli conundrum. Two states. Not the elimination of Israel. Not the elimination of Palestine. But two sovereign nations living beside one the other as most sovereign nations ultimately manage to do.
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:07 PM
I am not certain it is antisemitism that makes countries dislike Israel. In fact, it is an American/Western worldview that would even suggest that everyone is more affronted by Israel than other nations.
The US and UK is disliked more abroad than the Israelis. Israel is disliked in the Middle East because of the Palestinian issue, but they are not a threat to small nations, especially those in Latin America, Africa, or the Far East.
The reason why Israel is targeted is less antisemitism and more a non-caring for other non-white or "Western" nations (which Israel is defacto still).
We don't care about North Korea for the same reason that we seem to disregard the Chinese elephant in the room. To put it bluntly...Asians don't count. Latinos don't count. Black Africans don't count.
The reason the Middle East is even on our radar at all is because of its religious connotations.
I am not arguing that there is no antisemitism but that it really is not at play in international politics. At the level of those playing...money is. Within the context of our peon discussions it boils down usually to who is more white.
After all, look at how our governments react to Israel? We have open trade, military alliances, etc. If that is what antisemitism looks like then I would bet those in the Sudan, Bolivia, East Timor and others would start converting just for those sorts of relations.
The reason the Middle East is even on our radar at all is because of its religious connotations oil.fixt™
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:10 PM
Not gonna argue that one with you at all. True, true, and true.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 11:11 PM
Not gonna argue that one with you at all. Women in Burqua's are hot. True, true, and true.
fixt
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:11 PM
You're just playing the card because you're having issues defending Israel.
As much as this pains me.....I think BE has a valid point here. When viewed dispassionately, there are many other countries with records of actrocities surpassing what Israel has commited.
But on Internet forums....it's easy to stir up an argument about Israel. Try stirring one up about the hellish life experienced in Zimbabwe. Or India, where a supposedly dead 'caste' system still breathes......commiting an even worse form of "apartheid".
*Who cares....?*
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:13 PM
fixt
In terms of temperature AND sexiness, no less.
If that is what antisemitism looks like then I would bet those in the Sudan, Bolivia, East Timor and others would start converting just for those sorts of relations. And I think you ought to re-read my original post-
The fact that Israel is singled out as somehow the world's most blatant violator of human rights indicates a certain latent tenor of antisemitism. I'm not talking about governments and trade partners- I'm talking about those who are totally obsessed with the very fact of its existence and relentlessly attack it is the second coming of NAZIism.
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:16 PM
As much as this pains me.....I think BE has a valid point here. When viewed dispassionately, there are many other countries with records of actrocities surpassing what Israel has commited.
But on Internet forums....it's easy to stir up an argument about Israel. Try stirring one up about the hellish life experienced in Zimbabwe. Or India, where a supposedly dead 'caste' system still breathes......commiting an even worse form of "apartheid".
*Who cares....?*
I agree. However, that goes both ways. We care about them less because they aren't Jews/Judeo Christian white people. I don't think it is antisemitism that we care more about Israel. I think we just care less about those other nations because they aren't white.
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:16 PM
fixt™
Nah....I agree with that.
The situation in the Middle East is every bit rooted in religion. This conflict is rooted in events that occurred two millenia ago.
It is insanity defined.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:17 PM
As much as this pains me.....I think BE has a valid point here. When viewed dispassionately, there are many other countries with records of actrocities surpassing what Israel has commited.
But on Internet forums....it's easy to stir up an argument about Israel. Try stirring one up about the hellish life experienced in Zimbabwe. Or India, where a supposedly dead 'caste' system still breathes......commiting an even worse form of "apartheid".
*Who cares....?*
I'd suggest ignorance is not the sole cause of this. I have yet to find anyone online who has defended the actions of Kim Jong Il, or Mugabe, or whoever when it comes to human rights violations. Yet you will find people who will ignore blatant and irrefutable evidence of atrocities carried out by the Israelis just so they can say Israel is the butter wouldnt melt victim of the Middle East. These people tend to be Zionist scumbags, or their Neocon lapdogs, but thats beside the point...
We care about them less because they aren't JewsNow you're getting somewhere.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 11:18 PM
I'm, 1/4 Seminole.
You see me crying ?
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:19 PM
I think we just care less about those other nations because they aren't white.
Exactly Correct.
I guess....*shrug*..........I agree with it anyway.
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:20 PM
I'm, 1/4 Seminole.
You see me crying ?
The Seminole tribe is one of the richest tribes. Don't see many of them crying.
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:20 PM
And I think you ought to re-read my original post-I'm not talking about governments and trade partners- I'm talking about those who are totally obsessed with the very fact of its existence and relentlessly attack it is the second coming of NAZIism.
I think Israel had a crisis of pragmatism versus conscience and have had to go with "realist politics".
Having been to Palestine in 2002 I can say that there is an apartheid. They had many years to change these policies before it got to that point. Now, however, they are stuck. Their finger (apartheid) is in the dam. If they release the pressure they will be overrun.
Tucker's book on Theory and Practice of Revolution talks about absolute and relative deprivation and their part in when a revolution or revolt occurs.
Had the Israelis used smaller measures and instituted more lenient policies in the 80s and 90s they would not be where they are now where they are literally forced to be "absolute" in their Palestinian policies.
Unfortunately, they are stuck. The hatred on the Palestinian side is now generational. If the Israelis were to lighten up they would have a state ending crisis on their hands.
It is quite unfortunate. They are now stuck being what they never wanted to be. Hindsight is a bitch and I actually empathize with them.
Lexion
05-30-2010, 11:22 PM
Hindsight is a bitch and I actually empathize with them.
Sucks to be you.
If the Israelis were to lighten up they would have a state ending crisis on their hands.With that I disagree. But I also say, "So what?"
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:28 PM
With that I disagree. But I also say, "So what?"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k8647kp43g215594/
Link to a good article on human behavioral motivations and relative deprivation.
If the Palestinians think that things will never get better no matter what they do they will cease to show discontent (as Russia under Stalin). If they think they can have better or things will change with a push they will continue to push until there is another war (as Russia under Gorbachev). Russians revolted under Gorbachev because they felt they could, IE he was weak.
If Israel makes too many concessions they will have a large scale revolt. History has shown this.
Now they must decide "who" they want to be. A country that uses those same tactics used against Jews during the Hoshoah or if they want to become a beacon of freedom in the Middle East.
I would not want to be a policy maker in Israel today. They are left with the hot potato of their recent predecessors.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:30 PM
I think Israel had a crisis of pragmatism versus conscience and have had to go with "realist politics".
Having been to Palestine in 2002 I can say that there is an apartheid. They had many years to change these policies before it got to that point. Now, however, they are stuck. Their finger (apartheid) is in the dam. If they release the pressure they will be overrun.
Tucker's book on Theory and Practice of Revolution talks about absolute and relative deprivation and their part in when a revolution or revolt occurs.
Had the Israelis used smaller measures and instituted more lenient policies in the 80s and 90s they would not be where they are now where they are literally forced to be "absolute" in their Palestinian policies.
Unfortunately, they are stuck. The hatred on the Palestinian side is now generational. If the Israelis were to lighten up they would have a state ending crisis on their hands.
It is quite unfortunate. They are now stuck being what they never wanted to be. Hindsight is a bitch and I actually empathize with them.
Old Zionist militants who will be dead within years have left their children a terrible legacy to deal with. Their children could possibly reap a whirlwind that these current leaders cannot even comprehend.
MissA
05-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Old Zionist militants who will be dead within years have left their children a terrible legacy to deal with. Their children could possibly reap a whirlwind that these current leaders cannot even comprehend.
This will sound incredibly sappy, but I see no easy and clear cut solution so I try to remember to keep them in my prayers. The Palestinians used to be known for their warmth, much like Turks are known today. This is no longer the case. The Jewish children of today will grow up with this as their legacy. You are right. Terrible, indeed.
Very sad for all of them.
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:36 PM
But it's not really new to the Israelis. Their children have been born into a maelstrom for generations....since 1948. I would find it unlikely that those that have children now find it odd that their children will be born into a shitstorm.
Know what I mean?
Tough concept to get across.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:38 PM
This will sound incredibly sappy, but I see no easy and clear cut solution so I try to remember to keep them in my prayers. The Palestinians used to be known for their warmth, much like Turks are known today. This is no longer the case. The Jewish children of today will grow up with this as their legacy. You are right. Terrible, indeed.
Very sad for all of them.
Indeed. There have been studies that have shown quite emphatically the psychological issues that have become commonplace in Palestinian children. These children will grow with these issues. When they rule the roost... eeeeish...
The great hope for the region comes with certain sections of Israeli society. Students are becoming increasingly aware of the atrocities carried out in their name, and they are growing more and more vocal in their opposition. Then of course, there are groups like JFJFP and B'Tselem. I hope these people will be able to bridge the gaps that their leaders have been so keen to foster.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:40 PM
But it's not really new to the Israelis. Their children have been born into a maelstrom for generations....since 1948. I would find it unlikely that those that have children now find it odd that their children will be born into a shitstorm.
Know what I mean?
Tough concept to get across.
I get what you mean, but this is where the information age comes into its own. People with information at their beck and call have a massive advantage over people who have the information preapproved then dished out to them.
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:46 PM
True. And what we see in some of the younger generations there, may be a direct consequence of the Internet's growth.
Snow Crash
05-30-2010, 11:50 PM
True. And what we see in some of the younger generations there, may be a direct consequence of the Internet's growth.
I'd agree with that. The one thing that the internet has done is served to break down borders. People are constantly finding they have friends where their government has told them they have enemies. I love the internet for that shit, I really do.
MrPenny
05-30-2010, 11:55 PM
At least we haven't been hearing about Israel blocking specific Internet resources......like Iran and China......
That's interesting. Can't express why right now.....
Infinite`Eternal`Forever
10-13-2010, 12:24 AM
Oh, come on.
The same card as Race.
Surely you see that ?
Hey Lex, if you never would've stooped to the level of playing an e-racist, then I would've never called you out for being one. It's that fucking simple.
Sidenote: The term "race card" was invented by racist whites to ignore or triviualize actual situations of racism.
Paroxysm
10-13-2010, 12:51 AM
Hey Lex, if you never would've stooped to the level of playing an e-racist, then I would've never called you out for being one. It's that fucking simple.
Sidenote: The term "race card" was invented by racist whites to ignore or triviualize actual situations of racism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Infinite`Eternal`Forever
10-13-2010, 08:56 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Don't front like you have any knowlegde of logical fallacies, let alone argumentation.