Report: Close-range blast sank S. Korean ship

[skunk]

Report: Close-range blast sank S. Korean ship (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/04/25/south.korea.ship/index.html?hpt=T1)

An explosion at close range, and not a direct hit, caused the 1,200-ton patrol ship Cheonan to sink last month, a team of South Korean military and civilian investigators has tentatively concluded.

The investigators' determination was reported Sunday by the Yonhap news agency.

"Instead of being directly hit by a torpedo or other underwater weapon, the Cheonan was affected by a strong explosion that occurred below its bottom at a close range," the news agency quoted a government official as saying.

The explanation matches one that investigators offered shortly after the ship's stern was salvaged 10 days ago.

A final result is not expected for a month, Defense Minister Kim Tae-young told reporters.

He said that the most likely cause of the sinking was a "bubble jet" created by the external explosion under the ship.

A bubble jet effect occurs when an explosion goes off under a ship. The change in pressure causes a huge column of water that strikes the ship with great impact.

On Saturday, recovery crews found the body of a missing sailor in the wreckage of the ship.

The ship sunk in the Yellow Sea near the western sea border with North Korea on March 26.

Forty of Cheonan's 104 crew members have now been confirmed dead, and six more are also believed dead, though they are still listed as missing.

Fifty eight others were rescued before the vessel sank.

South Korea has not ruled out a theory that North Korea was involved.

But Seoul has avoided directly blaming North Korea, which sloughed off allegations it is responsible.

The families of the dead sailors began a five-day mourning period on Sunday.

On Thursday, the South Korean navy will hold a funeral ceremony at a naval command in Pyeongtaek, about 70 kilometers (43 miles) south of Seoul.

The navy has also decided to posthumously promote the dead seamen by one rank and award them a military honor for their patriotism.

Sounds likely the NK's sunk this ship...

[mur]

Did you see the photos of the two halves of the ship being lifted out of the water?


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/04-16-2010.ni_16_South_Korea_Ship_Sinks.GSR2Q56VR.1.jpg


http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20100425/000d87ad41a00d3e385806.jpg

[skunk]

You think it hit a mine?

[mur]

The fucking thing was cut in half....can one mine do that?

[Pam]

Missile.

[Alessandra]

human missiles :>

[skunk]

The blast came from underwater...Could be a submarine, could be a mine.

[mur]

The blast came from underwater...Could be a submarine, could be a mine.


Suicide Torpedo

[Alessandra]

Suicide Torpedo

BAND NAME AMG

[MrPenny]

The fucking thing was cut in half....can one mine do that?

Yup. It isn't just the explosives in the mine, but the blast causes a cavity that when water rushes back into, creates a tremendous amount of up force.

I've seen videos of ships like that lifted nearly clear of the water from that effect.

[WITCH HUNT]

Yup. It isn't just the explosives in the mine, but the blast causes a cavity that when water rushes back into, creates a tremendous amount of up force.

I've seen videos of ships like that lifted nearly clear of the water from that effect.

Definitely a torpedo. Nowadays every major navy has switched from impact detonation to something loosely refered to "blast wave detonation" torpedos. US NAVY torpedos detonate almost exactly under the center point of the ship, the resulting blast pushes the center of the ship up and breaks it's spine or keel. It then sinks in minutes. There is a video somewhere showing a WW2 battleship being sank by a "mark" series torpedo. The whole ship rises about 10 feet out of the water and sinks in about 3 minutes. AWESOME!

If it was a mine, then it was a mine anchored below the surface and not floating on the surface. It was the only mine in the area as opposed to being in a cluster. For a single mine to sink a ship in that large a body of water, is a million to one shot.

For me the mystery is why is the S. K. government slow playin' this. They want to kick the shit out of the NORTH desperately!

[mur]

DPRK has nukes....maybe?

[skunk]

They're also probably worried about igniting WW3. China and Russia are both allies of N.K.

[MrPenny]

Here's a good source (http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_wpns/uw_wpns.htm). Very first section.

I was remembering it slightly wrong....the blast lifts the ship up, then when it slams back down, the final damage is caused.

[WITCH HUNT]

Here's a good source (http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/uw_wpns/uw_wpns.htm). Very first section.

I was remembering it slightly wrong....the blast lifts the ship up, then when it slams back down, the final damage is caused.

So was I, thanks for the refresher, and a new link to cruise through.:carrot:

What do you think about hypersonic torpedos?
Gotta love super-cavitation!

[Lexion]

Did you see the photos of the two halves of the ship being lifted out of the water?


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/04-16-2010.ni_16_South_Korea_Ship_Sinks.GSR2Q56VR.1.jpg


http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20100425/000d87ad41a00d3e385806.jpg


The fucking thing was cut in half....can one mine do that?

How do you figure ?

And, initial reports were that it
exploded aft, but the screws are
intact.

[MrPenny]

lex, it's pretty clear from the images that a high explosive device detonated directly under the keel of that ship.

Although, I may be telling you something you already know.

[mur]

How do you figure ?

And, initial reports were that it
exploded aft, but the screws are
intact.


The top picture is the aft half...the bottom is the bow half.

I'd say it is close to being halved

[Lexion]

See the tarp over the bow ?

That's where the explosion
happened.

Edit:

Hmmmm.

Tarp is on the bow, in one;
aft in the other.

[mur]

See the tarp over the bow ?

That's where the explosion
happened.

Edit:

Hmmmm.

Tarp is on the bow, in one;
aft in the other.


Two difference pieces

[MrPenny]

Maybe covering secret stuff?

The tarps are covering the broken ends of the ship. Something to prevent forensic evidence from sinking back into the sea?

[Lexion]

Matter of fact, those are two
different vessels.

Look at the conning length, and
turrets.

[MrPenny]

Someone needs to find a photo of the complete vessel.

[Lexion]

The vessel IS complete.

The screws and rudder are intact
in one pic.

The other pic has a shorter screw
shaft area.

And, the conning and turrets are
different.

Plus, the tarp is in a different
position.

The keel is intact.

[hohum]

See the tarp over the bow ?

That's where the explosion
happened.

Edit:

Hmmmm.

Tarp is on the bow, in one;
aft in the other.

Very astute Soldier! I agree with your synopsis entirely.

[MrPenny]

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k352/mgeorg/Goofy%20Crap/story_skorea_navy_afp_gi.jpg

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k352/mgeorg/Goofy%20Crap/_47543840_009016398-1.jpg

Crappy pictures...but I think the two are halves of the same ship.

[mur]

That is two pieces of the same ship.

The rear was raised first....the front was raised about a week later


I'll find the links

[MrPenny]

Lex...the tarps are placed over the open ends of each end of the ship. There is no tarp on a bow.

[Lexion]

Are ya'll suggesting it was
split length-wise ?

:facepalm:

[Lexion]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/04-16-2010.ni_16_South_Korea_Ship_Sinks.GSR2Q56VR.1.jpg


Tarp on the bow.

[mur]

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/mambots/content/multithumb/thumbs/350.0.1.0.16777215.0.stories.large.2010.04.15.sk98 468170.jpg (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/images/stories/large/2010/04/15/sk98468170.jpg)

A giant floating crane lifts the stern of a South Korean warship to place it on a barge on April 15, 2010. The 1,200-ton patrol combat corvette PCC-772 Cheonan was split in two by a big external explosion on March 26 near a disputed Yellow Sea border, wit (Hong Jin-Hwan/AFP/Getty Images)



http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/33491/

[mur]

Tarp on the bow.


See my last post

[MrPenny]

Tarp on the bow.

That's half of the ship lex.....that tarp is covering the open end of the hull.

[Lexion]

Mur, with all due respect,

That's a complete vessel.

[MrPenny]

Mur, with all due respect,

That's a complete vessel.

Dude....do you need to see an eye doctor? I know that sounds shitty...but really.

[Lexion]

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20100425/000d87ad41a00d3e385806.jpg

And, if you say it was blown
in half, explain the above pic.

[MrPenny]

And, if you say it was blown
in half, explain the above pic.

That's the front half lex. The other image is the rear half.

[mur]

http://beta.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00109/AVN_KOREASHIP_109561f.jpg

AP A giant offshore crane salvages the front portion of the sunken South Korean naval ship Cheonan off Baengnyeong Island, South Korea. Photo: AP


http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article409041.ece

[Lexion]

:facepalm:

I'm not the one needing glasses.

[mur]

:facepalm:

I'm not the one needing glasses.


Read the links I just provided

[mur]

The tarps were placed where the vessel broke apart

[Lexion]

See the tallest point on the conning ?

Why is it on both pics ?

These are two different vessels.

[mur]

http://media.cnsnews.com/resources/64612.jpg
The stern of the salvaged South Korean naval ship Cheonan. (AP Photo/Yonhap, Im Hun-jung)

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/64611


There is no conning tower above


http://joongangdaily.joins.com/_data/photo/2010/04/23212402.jpg
The bow of the Cheonan breaks the sea’s surface yesterday, 28 days after the corvette sank in an unexplained explosion. Salvage teams repositioned the bow, which had lain on its side on the ocean floor, and will hoist it today. [YONHAP]

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2919614




The Conning tower is on the bow above.

If you read the links or even the captions you will notice that one photo is the stern, the other is the bow

[mur]

Big Ass Crane though


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/media/ALeqM5j-v9TpfCLSbmQgise7w_NFLJ5ZXw?size=l
A giant offshore crane salvages portion of the sunken South Korean naval ship Cheonan off Baengnyeong Island, South Korea, Saturday, April 24, 2010. South Korea lifted remaining half of its warship Saturday in waters near the disputed sea border with North Korea, a month after it sank following a mysterious explosion that left 46 sailors dead or missing. (AP Photo/Yonhap, Choi Jae-ku)


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/slideshow/ALeqM5jQydsIWmNQZpwRriADac51u5rx8gD9F9DFP80?index= 7

[mur]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/media/ALeqM5is1Xw1MvbKNFcRnXorzoDGlewnaQ?size=l
The salvaged bow of the South Korean warship PCC-772 Cheonan, is salvaged near the disputed Yellow Sea border

« Back to article (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j2hk031rtbbPSX-5k6OiynEI-2fA?index=0&ned=us)

[Lexion]

http://media.cnsnews.com/resources/64612.jpg
The stern of the salvaged South Korean naval ship Cheonan. (AP Photo/Yonhap, Im Hun-jung)

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/64611


There is no conning tower above


http://joongangdaily.joins.com/_data/photo/2010/04/23212402.jpg
The bow of the Cheonan breaks the sea’s surface yesterday, 28 days after the corvette sank in an unexplained explosion. Salvage teams repositioned the bow, which had lain on its side on the ocean floor, and will hoist it today. [YONHAP]

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2919614




The Conning tower is on the bow above.

If you read the links or even the captions you will notice that one photo is the stern, the other is the bow

Mur, look at the pics.

The both show a turret in front of the
conning.

They both show a structure similar on
top of the conning.

Two different vessels.

[Lexion]

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k352/mgeorg/Goofy%20Crap/_47543840_009016398-1.jpg


Where is the turret, in the middle
of the conning ?

[mur]

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/South-Korea-Chenoan-10-4-26.jpg




http://www.pattayadailynews.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/pic2138.jpg

[Cogburn]

You mean in this pic?

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/_data/photo/2010/04/23212402.jpg

Uhhh... its behind some chains on the left side of the photograph.

The fore gun would be out of the frame.

[Lexion]

I really need to learn how to circle
shit in pics.

[mur]

9paY4S0oNNM



Both halves shown in video

[Lexion]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/Lexion07/turret.jpg

See that turret ?

Where is the rest of the conning ?

Two different vessels.

[lala]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/3802/soustov.7c/0_3d27b_c5d952a2_L.jpg (http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/soustov/view/250491/)


http://u-96.livejournal.com/2067032.html


The Cheonan split in two about one third of the way in from the stern. The stern section lies where the vessel sank, but the bow is believed to be have drifted due to the strong current to a seaweed-infested spot some four miles away between Baengnyeong Island and Daecheong Island. A military official said they have a general idea of the bow’s location, but they have mobilized minesweepers to determine the exact location.



Edit to add,

The illustration shows the layout and probable chain of events of Patrol Combat Corvette (PCC) Cheonan. Most of the officers in the officers quarters located in the front of the PCC were rescued, while many sailors in the sailors quarters in the stern of the PCC are among those who are missing. From the left, 1. warehouse 2. powder magazine 3. bridge of the ship 4. combat intelligence center 5. fuel tank 6. gas turbine room 7. diesel engine room 8. powder magazine and sleeping quarters (located between numbers 2 and 4, and between numbers 7 and 8)

[mur]

You're wrong


The 1,200-ton Navy frigate "Cheonan", with 104 crew members onboard, went down on March 26 off the South Korean island of Baekryeongdo off the west coast due to an unexplained explosion that split it in two. Fifty-eight sailors were rescued alive, while 40 sailors were confirm dead. Six others are still unaccounted for but are believed dead.
The bow of the sunken ship was salvaged on Saturday while the stern of it was raised out of water on April 15.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-04/25/c_13266424.htm

[mur]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/PCC-783.jpg

From wiki

ROKS Cheonan (PCC-772) was a South Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea) Pohang-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohang_class_corvette) corvette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette) of the Republic of Korea Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Korea_Navy) (ROKN), commissioned in 1989. On 26 March 2010, it broke in two and sank after a non-contact external explosion, possibly from a torpedo.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohang_class_corvette


Picture above is the Pohang-class Sinsung (PCC-783)

[mur]

737

[hp]

This should be the class of ship - Pohang-class corvette - said to be 772

http://www.wikiwak.com/image/PCC-783.jpg?s=300

http://www.wikiwak.com/wak/ROKS_Cheonan_(PCC-772 (http://www.wikiwak.com/wak/ROKS_Cheonan_%28PCC-772))


http://media.cnsnews.com/resources/64612.jpg

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20100425/000d87ad41a00d3e385806.jpg

Looks like the break is at the rear third of length. I am too lazy now to mirror and resize.

Almost looks like part is missing from the center. Guess it is picture scale.

[Lexion]

I'm not wrong.

Whatever.

[Cogburn]

I'm not wrong.

Whatever.

:lol:

Oh c'mon, dude.

[mur]

I'm not wrong.

Whatever.

Lex....it's cool

You know how I feel about you, and it hasn't changed

[KIWI]

theyre "nets" not "tarps"

just sayin


I reckon a US sub took this vessel out

[Alessandra]

ITS A TARP

[MrPenny]

I reckon a US sub took this vessel out

That's exactly a suspicion I've had. It's entirely possible that somewhere, some captain had a "whoops" moment.

[KIWI]

That's exactly a suspicion I've had. It's entirely possible that somewhere, some captain had a "whoops" moment.

I think when you look at history and the way political gains are made via the use of covert military action ..... what would suit the "west" more at the present point of time than to have an excuse to put their boot on the N Koreans neck .....

without straining your good selves, or striking out for "google".... how many historical military operations can you call to mind where this sort of deliberate act has been engineered to allow for an excuse to invade , attack and harass another nation for their own gain? ..... it seems abhorrent that an ally would do this to another for the reason of "finding an excuse" to join the fray .... but we all know that the end goal (in their minds) most definately justifies the means , and have no qualms at all of engaging in this type of behaviour

[MrPenny]

Further woolgathering......how likely is it that the "rescued" crewmen were merely a skeleton crew to get the vessel to a particular place, and the rest comfortably "reassigned".

[hp]

I'm sure a couple of navy seals from a sub with some type of explosive device would neatly do the trick.

[Lexion]

Ok.

This has taken a GLP turn.

I'm out.

[Alessandra]

so have you lex.

[MrPenny]

Ok.

This has taken a GLP turn.

I'm out.

No shit? You're the one insisting it's two different ships......despite what everyone eyes are telling them. :D

[hp]

I'm not ready think that anyone (if hostile) other than the North most likely did the damage.

[MrPenny]

Well then, I think they must have gotten extremely lucky. I'm not sure their Navy has the tech to deliver a torpedo with that kind of precision.....unless it was truly one of those suicide torps we saw earlier.

[KIWI]

Further woolgathering......how likely is it that the "rescued" crewmen were merely a skeleton crew to get the vessel to a particular place, and the rest comfortably "reassigned".


I'm sure a couple of navy seals from a sub with some type of explosive device would neatly do the trick.


its a major problem for me when shit like this gets "officially acessed" .. how could anyone possibly rule out the actions of the submarine service and US special forces .... when there where-abouts and activities are not known? .... it is a huge part of the equation missing

[KIWI]

Ok.

This has taken a GLP turn.

I'm out.

because its pointed out there are several plausible scenarios to this event?

how is that a GLP turn?

[hp]

A bit hard to believe it wasn't deliberate not matter what device or technique was used.

[MrPenny]

I think it was absolutely deliberate. Seems incredibly unlikely the ship encountered a single rogue mine at exactly the right location and place to do that kind of damage. And a mine field is even more unlikely given the willingness of S. Korea to move a large number of salvage vessels into the local waters so quickly.

[hp]

Waiting for the world to work in Somalia or Iran.

[mur]

It was a suicide torpedo/ small sub from NK

If this was a set up for war by the USA or SK...war would have started already.

Think about it...the South is an industrial powerhouse and has everything to lose from war.

The North has nothing to lose and everything to gain...they've got the bomb and relish the thought of being able to actually threaten to use it.

A big crisis will ensue and the North will be bought off by the US quietly...with food, oil...who knows.

This is the pattern of how the North operates.

The US already has wars on 2 fronts, a possible Iran problem.

No way this was engineered for a third or forth front....by the US.

It's obvious that NK sunk that ship....because there is a motive and a benefit and no downside whatsoever

[hp]

Very reasonable theory.

[MrPenny]

Hard to argue with mur's assessment.

[KIWI]

It was a suicide torpedo/ small sub from NK

If this was a set up for war by the USA or SK...war would have started already.

Think about it...the South is an industrial powerhouse and has everything to lose from war.

The North has nothing to lose and everything to gain...they've got the bomb and relish the thought of being able to actually threaten to use it.

A big crisis will ensue and the North will be bought off by the US quietly...with food, oil...who knows.

This is the pattern of how the North operates.

The US already has wars on 2 fronts, a possible Iran problem.

No way this was engineered for a third or forth front....by the US.

It's obvious that NK sunk that ship....because there is a motive and a benefit and no downside whatsoever

thats a regression to the old "cold-war" mentality Mur ...... puppetry in motion .... I dont see any of this as a North v South issue .... it is a stage from which the super-power bully's make the call's

[mur]

I have my moments....but I'm looking around to see where Mr. Burn is....he frequently comes up with something I hadn't thought of.

But regardless of the delivery method, everything points to NK including the subdue reaction and the reluctance of the South to actually accuse them officially.

This is exactly what the North wants...to ratchet up the rhetoric so it can imply it's threat, and get the goodies to back down. We did help to create this problem though because we have bought them off over and over in the past.

[mur]

thats a regression to the old "cold-war" mentality Mur ...... puppetry in motion .... I dont see any of this as a North v South issue .... it is a stage from which the super-power bully's make the call's

You're right, it isn't North versus South at all....it's the North extorting the US...because, we keep buying them off with oil and food.

The South ship was a ways to means...a target of opportunity.

Any talk of a War in Korea catches the US's attention...just as there nuclear power plant did. They said they would shut it down....we sent them oil and food. However...they never did. When they want something, they seek to attract negative attention...missile launches, holding american reporters...I'm sure they wanted something ...oil, food.

Let's see how it plays out over the next few months.

I'd also add that NK still plays by cold war rules because we cave in everytime.

War in Korea would not be a good thing.

Best we can hope for is that the regime is over thrown from within...I'd even welcome a military coup....they might be more reasonable.

[skunk]

Mur, with all due respect,

That's a complete vessel.

Dude.

The ship in question is called the Cheonan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_(PCC-772)) and is a Pohang-class (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/pohang.htm) corvette ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pohang_class_corvette).

General characteristics
Displacement: 1,350 tons
Length: 88 metres (288 ft 9 in)[1]
Beam: 10 metres (32 ft 10 in)[1]
Propulsion: CODOG unit[1]
Speed: Maximum 32 knots (59 km/h)
Cruising 15 knots (28 km/h)[1]
Range: 4,000 nautical miles (7,400 km)[1]
Crew: 95
Sensors and
processing systems: Signaal PHS-32 Hull mounted sonar
Armament:
2 OTO Melara(76mm)/62 compact
2 Breda 40mm/70
4 RGM-84D Harpoon SSM or 2 MM-38 Exocet, MK-46 mod 2, 12 MK-9 depth charge racks

The ship is 288 feet and 9 inches long.

Are you trying to tell me that one of those halves is almost 300 feet?

Come on now.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/04-16-2010.ni_16_South_Korea_Ship_Sinks.GSR2Q56VR.1.jpg

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20100425/000d87ad41a00d3e385806.jpg

Place them together, and one ship emerges.


Ok.

This has taken a GLP turn.

I'm out.

The only one talking GLP nonsense if you man.

[Cogburn]

Ok.

This has taken a GLP turn.

I'm out.

No worse than the suggestion it was two ships when the images clearly show that it is not.

I guess you could call it going with the flow.

[skunk]

Can anyone scale that image so we can get a better estimation of each half's length? The people are too far away to make an accurate guess.

[mur]

I don't think that is really necessary.

One ship sank...not two.

If it was two, I doubt it would be covered up and I can't even think of a reason why it would be.

[skunk]

Just trying to help ease lex's paranoia. I suspect he's been spending too much time on glp and ae.

[KIWI]

You're right, it isn't North versus South at all....it's the North extorting the US...because, we keep buying them off with oil and food.


cog will issue me an A.S.B.O for mentioning Anthony Sutton again but Im do gonna it any way .... what he proved was commerce and trade carry's on regardless of the official status of a nations relationship with its"enemies" .... Nk has been no different in that respect ... cog would have me believe that those points are not applicable today, as the major communist threat no longer applies (Russia/China) .... I say the exact same buisness is still current today ..... so I regard all sabre-rattling with a healthy and,imo, well warranted degree of suspicion .... isnt it strange that a country with the resources and global clout that the US has , its proud abillity to deploy a military force to any corner of the planet at a moments notice ..... fails to understand that the very same strength it uses to supply these situations with a "helping-hand" , usually through the medium of a smart-bomb down ya chimney, could be turnrd through 180 degrees and acheived a lot quicker if they left their bang-bangs at home? ....... uncle sam can have a carrier fleet in your back-pond within 24 hours, no matter where you are, .... but cant get help to the victums of Katrina inside 24 days.. "scratches noodle"

the only diff today is the "pinko's" have been changed to muslims, they are the new threat-du-jour ..... Ive gotta sit down, spin-doctoring is giddy work

[Cogburn]

Hehehe... I said that folks have yet to continue the research as diligently to continue to validate the applicability.

Furthermore, I believe that the folks whom Sutton highlighted are no longer as large a player in the game. Sure, they use the names of those archons of finance, but they are pretenders to the throne that have usurped power.

The 60s and 70s were the time when it shifted.

I think you misunderstand what I meant originally, KIWI.

[KIWI]

Hehehe... I said that folks have yet to continue the research as diligently to continue to validate the applicability.


and therein lies the catch 22 ..... all exposure is historical, the grubby actions and motives by the world powers today will not become available for research scrutiny until such times as the information is "released" .... and to hold any one responsible from a retrospective point of veiw will never happen .... shit , cant even get "little george" and his cronies into the witness stand and they have only been gone a couple of days! lol



Furthermore, I believe that the folks whom Sutton highlighted are no longer as large a player in the game. Sure, they use the names of those archons of finance, but they are pretenders to the throne that have usurped power.

the old guard die off for sure, but I think the song remains the same.....like any other criminal gang they simply find other methods to carry on buisness as usual when they get caught



I think you misunderstand what I meant originally, KIWI.

snafu :)

[mur]

North Korea denies sinking warship; South Korea vows strong response

STORY HIGHLIGHTS


NEW: Investigators recovered propeller from torpedo that blew Cheonan in half
North Korea denies torpedoing warship, says report is part of a smear campaign
South Korea vows resolute measures to make North Korea accept responsibility
North Korea fired torpedo that hit South Korean warship, killing 46, investigators say



Washington (CNN) -- The president of South Korea has vowed "resolute" measures against North Korea for its alleged attack on a South Korean warship, South Korea's Yonhap News Agency reported Thursday.
A five-country committee announced Thursday morning in Seoul that they had concluded a North Korean submarine fired a torpedo that sunk the South Korea warship in March.
Investigators recovered a propeller from the torpedo that blew the Cheonan in half on March 26, Yoon Duk-yong, the committee's co-chair, told reporters.
The propeller was from the kind of "torpedoes that were exported from North Korea and the letters and the fonts on the torpedo are the are the same that are used by North Korea," Yoon said at a Thursday morning news conference. "This torpedo was manufactured in North Korea."
Yoon said that the investigation found that a small to mid-sized North Korea sub "fired the torpedo that sunk the Cheonan vessel and retreated back to their border."
As the 1,200-ton vessel went down, 46 sailors were lost near disputed waters in the Yellow Sea.
"(We) will take resolute countermeasures against North Korea and make it admit its wrongdoings through strong international cooperation and return to the international community as a responsible member," President Lee Myung-bak told Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd in phone talks, according to Lee's office, Yonhap reported.
North Korea denied torpedoing the warship just as the team of investigators in Seoul unveiled their report.
"We had already warned the South Korean group of traitors not to make reckless remarks concerning the sinking of warship Cheonan of the puppet navy," North Korea's National Defence Commission said in a statement, according to the Korean Central News Agency. "Nevertheless, the group of traitors had far-fetchedly tried to link the case with us without offering any material evidence."
"It finally announced the results of the joint investigation based on a sheer fabrication" the defense commission said, according to the state-run KCNA. The commission called the new report part of a "smear campaign."
The White House backed the report issued Thursday in Seoul, saying it "points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that North Korea was responsible for the attack."
"This act of aggression is one more instance of North Korea's unacceptable behavior and defiance of international law," said a statement by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. "This attack constitutes a challenge to international peace and security and is a violation of the Armistice Agreement."
President Obama spoke with South Korean President Lee bak on Monday and "made clear that the United States fully supports the Republic of Korea, both in the effort to secure justice for the 46 service members killed in this attack and in its defense against further acts of aggression," Gibbs said.
"North Korea must understand that belligerence towards its neighbors and defiance of the international community are signs of weakness, not strength," Gibbs' statement said. "Such unacceptable behavior only deepens North Korea's isolation. It reinforces the resolve of its neighbors to intensify their cooperation to safeguard peace and stability in the region against all provocations."
The United States has a mutual defense treaty with South Korea and Japan to defend "against any aggression," so if a military confrontation develops, the United States would be responsible for defending South Korea, a U.S. military official said.
"I don't think it will come to that," the official said. "They know they need to have a response, but there is too much at stake for South Korea to have a confrontation on the Korean peninsula. North Korea has nothing to lose, but South Korea is a serious country with a huge economy."
There are military options for South Korea beyond firing missiles, said John Delury, who studies North and South Korea at the Asia Society.
Anything combative would hurt South Korea economically, Delury said, but the country could increase its naval presence along the line that divides South and North Korea in the waters surrounding the countries. He notes that comes with a risk.
"Those actions could trigger a conflict," he noted.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who will visit Seoul next week, will talk with the South Korean government about the investigation, Assistant Secretary Campbell said.
Clinton will also visit Japan and China during her trip, and the North Korean issue is likely to be high on the agenda.
Clinton will have "the closest possible consultations with Japan, China and South Korea about the next phase," Campbell said.
On Monday, President Obama spoke on the phone about the investigation with President Lee.
The president reiterated "the strong and unwavering commitment of the United States to the defense and the well-being of its close friend and ally, the Republic of Korea," a White House statement said about the conversation.

CNN's Elise Labott and Mike Mount contributed to this report.
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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/south.korea.ship/index.html?hpt=T1

[KIWI]

The White House backed the report issued Thursday in Seoul, saying it "points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that North Korea was responsible for the attack."
"This act of aggression is one more instance of North Korea's unacceptable behavior and defiance of international law," said a statement by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs. "This attack constitutes a challenge to international peace and security and is a violation of the Armistice Agreement."


will suprise suprise ....



North Korea fired torpedo that hit South Korean warship, killing 46, investigators say



Investigators recovered a propeller from the torpedo that blew the Cheonan in half on March 26, Yoon Duk-yong, the committee's co-chair, told reporters.
The propeller was from the kind of "torpedoes that were exported from North Korea and the letters and the fonts on the torpedo are the are the same that are used by North Korea," Yoon said at a Thursday morning news conference. "This torpedo was manufactured in North Korea."


pray tell Mur .... where did they find the evidence, laying on top of Kim Jong il's passport, inadvertantly picked up by a passing porpoise? .... they cant plug a fucking pipe in the gulf but found the "smoking" gun here?

its pretty obvious the US authorities couldnt find their own arse's with both hands and a map ...... baaaaaaaaa



http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/report-says-n-korea-torpedoed-ship-3560907?ref=rss
A report by investigators, including experts from the United States, Australia, Britain and Sweden, concluded that a North Korean submarine had fired the torpedo which sank the Cheonan corvette in March, killing 46 sailors.

"There is no other plausible explanation," their report said

:jerkoff::jerkoff::jerkoff:


The report, announced in a nationally televised news conference, said intelligence had shown that North Korean submarines were likely in operation near the scene of the sinking, with similar vessels of other neighbouring countries all inside their territorial waters.

"The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine," it said.


:jerkoff:

NK subs were LIKELY in the area???? ... will, if they were "likely" there thats good enough for.....?



At a news conference chief investigator Yoon Duk-Young showed a propeller fragment bearing a serial number that matched the markings on a North Korean torpedo that South Korea obtained years earlier.
"The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine," he said in a nationally televised news conference.



http://amkon.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=916&stc=1&d=1274351959

err... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight .... , how convenient

[mur]

It is much shallower water where the ship sunk as opposed to where the oil spews.

I'm not saying that article is the truth though....but I doubt we blew up the ship or any body but NK...because no one else has a motive.

But please do lay out your theory

[KIWI]

But please do lay out your theory

theory??? ...jeeziz mur ... lay off, you know damn well I make it up as I go along :geek:

[BE2]

theory??? ...jeeziz mur ... lay off, you know damn well I make it up as I go along :geek:Theoretically?

[KIWI]

Theoretically?

its made of the same stuff as Atta's pass-port

[KIWI]

99% pure Bovine fecal deposits

[BE2]

its made of the same stuff as Atta's pass-port Oh! Asbestos. Well why didn't you just say so instead of wasting all those valuable electrons?

[mur]

The thing is....this fits a pattern of NK being provocative, and getting concessions in the end.

Everyone involved has something to lose except NK.

Obama isn't going to do a thing except talk, and SK has everything to lose.

NK is playing a dangerous game, but in the end they will concede that a rogue sub captain sunk the ship acting without orders....and in exchange America will send them food and oil.

[KIWI]

The thing is....this fits a pattern of NK being provocative,

and the pattern of historical US provocation to that part of the world??? hmmmm

I wonder why they're "cagey"?

[BE2]

and the pattern of historical US provocation to that part of the world??? hmmmm

I wonder why they're "cagey"?
You're being way too objective here, nasal boy. What the hell kind of American are you anyway?

[mur]

Agreed...however there is no benefit for us to be involved in a third war...and SK has everything to lose.

I guess anything is possible...but taking on NK means taking on China...and I'd be shocked if the US wanted to take on China right now.

The stake are just way too high.

NK wants something, and they will probably get it for a half assed admission of guilt.

[KIWI]

Agreed...however there is no benefit for us to be involved in a third war

they are the most powerful fist on the planet mate ...... just showing up is usually enough to get their way .... its what happens behind the scenes, trade embargoes etc , they hold all the cards and deal from both sides of the street ... look at the network of the US mil/intel machine, I almost doubt my own suspicions at times as I watch the bumbling way in which they wield this behemoth at their disposal ...

[mur]

I agree with everything you say...but in this instance...we blew up the SK ship to get what out of NK?

They got nothing we want.

The last thing I would think that we would want is that area destabilized at the moment.

I fail to see how the US benefits from that

[KIWI]

I agree with everything you say...but in this instance...we blew up the SK ship to get what out of NK?

They got nothing we want.


sabre rattling is still a valuable tool .... they will "build" on this, by the time the shit really hits you may well be lucky to even recognise their grubby paw prints on it .... until 60 years in the future when some as yet unborn researcher back-engineers the deal as a school paper ..

you raise the best point mur ... what for? what do they have to gain? give your wild side licence to wander and see if you see what I think I do

[mur]

Well...I've thought about this.....

Far fetched but a significant crisis is this region give us an excuse to default on the Chinese debt and still claim to hold the moral high ground, and preserve our markets.

I mean the Chinese are going to back NK.

However, i believe that there is just too much risk involved having this type of confrontation with the Chinese.....and I would think there are better ways to get what we want out of China than this.

China needs us to buy their exports.....without that, they are fucked.

I default to the idea that this fits the pattern of NK provocation to win concessions...because they know it has worked before and will work again

[Chorlton]

All out war’ threatened over North Korea attack on warship Cheonan



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7131533.ece

[mur]

All out war’ threatened over North Korea attack on warship Cheonan



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7131533.ece


Exactly the play I would expect from NK...they have everything to gain from the "threat" of all out war, just as they had everything to gain from the "threat" of acquiring nukes.

Wafr is what SK fears the most...they have a huge economy that would suffer if war broke out.

NK has nothing to lose and their threat tactics have worked before and it will work again.


NK will will save face after a huge build up of tensions, and get the ransom it wants...it always does.

[skunk]

All out war’ threatened over North Korea attack on warship Cheonan

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7131533.ece

NK admits they attacked the ship with a torpedo???

North Korea has threatened “all-out war” if there Seoul retaliates for the torpedo attack that sank the South Korean warship Cheonan in March.

Pyongyang made the threat as it dismissed as fabrication a report by an international team of investigators that concluded that a torpedo fired by a North Korean submarine was responsible for the explosion that ripped the 1,200-tonne corvette in two, killing 46 sailors in one of South Korea’s worst naval tragedies.

In an escalating war of words Lee Myung Bak, the South Korean president vowed to take “resolute counter-measures” against North Korea for the torpedo attack on the Cheonan, which happened near the disputed border between the two countries.

The investigators’ report, published today, is understood to include a computer simulation of the attack in which the Cheonan is shown being struck by an acoustic homing torpedo armed with a quarter-tonne warhead.

It concludes: “The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine. There is no other plausible explanation.”

[BE2]

NK admits they attacked the ship with a torpedoI think they've denied it.

[mur]

I think they've denied it.


Yes...it was denied...and they probably always will....until it is in there interest to accept partial responsibility for a "rogue" Sub Captain.

There interest would be some type of payment....oil, food etc. in exchange for a lowering of tensions.

The West gives into there ploys every time.....nuke crisis, hostage journalists etc.

They are going to keep on coming up with more ploys....and I think they sense Obama's weakness in giving in.

Like I said before...they have nothing to lose and they know they will not be attacked

[BE2]

I think they sense Obama's weakness in giving in.What's the alternative? The problem isn't the nation per se but 20 million starving people. I say- feed 'em. They're human beings.

[mur]

What's the alternative? The problem isn't the nation per se but 20 million starving people. I say- feed 'em. They're human beings.

I agree with you...but NK bears the responsibility of sinking a ship and killing folks to get food.

I can't condone that.

Clinton says there must be consequences...and there should be...but just what the hell can we take away from them that they haven't already lost?


Clinton: N. Korea must face consequences

By the CNN Wire Staff

STORY HIGHLIGHTS


Sec. of State Clinton says North Korea must face consequences
South Korea's Lee: North's alleged attack violates armistice agreement
North Korea accuses Seoul of creating an atmosphere conducive to war
North Korea denies it sank a South Korean warship in March



(CNN) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Friday that North Korea must faces consequences after a report that it fired a torpedo that sank a South Korean warship in March.
"I think it's important to send a clear message to North Korea that provocative actions have consequences," she said amid heightened tensions and a diplomatic war of words between Seoul and Pyongyang over the incident. "We cannot allow the attack on South Korea to go unanswered by the international community."
Clinton was speaking in Tokyo, Japan, for the first leg of her week-long tour in Asia. She said she was consulting with international allies to find the appropriate reaction.
North Korea threatened to back out of a nonaggression pact between the nations, while the South Korean president accused its northern neighbor of engaging in military provocation, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported on Friday.
"Firstly, from now on (North Korea) will regard the present situation as the phase of a war...", the North's Committee for the Peaceful Reunification of Korea said Friday, according to Yonhap.
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, meanwhile, said that North Korea's alleged torpedo attack on a South Korean warship was tantamount to a military provocation and that it violates the armistice agreement between the nations, Yonhap reported.
South Korean (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/South_Korea) military officials on Thursday announced the results of an official investigation into the sinking of the ship, the Cheonan, which concluded that North Korea (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/North_Korea) fired a torpedo that cut the vessel in half.
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak vowed Thursday to take "resolute countermeasures" against North Korea for its alleged attack, according to his office.
On Friday, North Korea said it would scrap its nonaggression pact with South Korea if Seoul attempts to punish it for the sinking of the warship, South Korea's Yonhap news agency reported.
Should South Korea take steps to retaliate, North Korea will "strongly react to them with such merciless punishment as the total freeze of the inter-Korean relations, the complete abrogation of the north-south agreement on nonaggression and a total halt to the inter-Korean cooperation undertakings," the committee's statement said, Yonhap reported.
North Korea denied Thursday that it sunk the warship, which went down on March 26, killing 46 sailors.
"We had already warned the South Korean group of traitors not to make reckless remarks concerning the sinking of warship Cheonan of the puppet navy," North Korea's national defense commission said in a statement Thursday responding to the investigators' report, according to the Korean Central News Agency.
"Nevertheless, the group of traitors had far-fetchedly tried to link the case with us without offering any material evidence," the statement said.
The South Korean military group that presented its report on the ship's sinking Thursday comprises experts from South Korea, Australia, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States.
"The evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that the torpedo was fired by a North Korean submarine," said Dr. Yoon Duk-yong, the group's co-chair.
"There is no other plausible explanation," he said.
China asked both sides to stay calm to avoid an "escalation of the situation," said the country's foreign affairs ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu.
U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen said the status of the 28,500 U.S. troops in South Korea has not changed because of the findings.
"They are on their normal state of readiness. They are engaged very routinely out there," Mullen said.
The United States is bound by treaty to assist South Korea if it goes to war.
Japan said it stands behind South Korea. "We had received extensive explanation from the ROK [Republic of Korea] side prior to today's announcement," Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama said in a statement.
"On this basis, Japan strongly supports the ROK. North Korea's action cannot be condoned by any means, and Japan together with the international community strongly condemns North Korea," the prime minister said.
"In handling this matter, Japan will continue its close coordination and cooperation for regional peace and stability with the countries concerned, including the ROK and the United States."
Military and civilian briefers said that damage to the Cheonan's hulk and injuries on the bodies of the sailors were consistent with the kind of "shock-wave and bubble effect" produced by a homing torpedo attack. Seismic data, witness statements and computer modeling provided further corroboration, Yoon said.
Briefers displayed torpedo parts recovered from the Cheonan wreck site: part of a motor, a shaft and parts of the propeller. Korean writing, with the words "Number 1" were inscribed on fragments of the weapon. The parts displayed in a glass case were compared and shown to be identical to the blueprint of a 7.35 meter torpedo, obtained from a North Korean weapons export brochure.
General Han Won-dong, director of South Korea's Defense Intelligence Agency, declined to state how or where South Korea had obtained the brochure, citing security sensitivities.
International members of the investigative team agreed with the conclusions.
"We worked closely and collaboratively, using separate tools and methods," said Adm. Thomas Eccles of the U.S. Navy, adding that all members of the international team were in agreement.
Military officials also identified what they believe to be the type of vessel responsible.
"A few small submarines and a mother ship supporting them left a North Korea naval base in the West Sea [Yellow Sea (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Yellow_Sea)] two - three days prior to the attack," Yoon said, citing information gathered by a multinational task force made up of Australia, Canada, South Korea, the UK and the U.S.
The likely culprit was a midget submarine of the Yeono ("Salmon"), a vessel equipped with night vision equipment, Han said.
This is not the first clash the two Koreas have had near the maritime border.
In 1999 and 2002, there were fatal naval clashes between surface patrol boats near the inter-Korean maritime border in the Yellow Sea. A November shooting incident also may have killed North Korean sailors.
However, the use of a submarine is a significant escalation in terms of weapons used. It's also the deadliest North Korean attack since the bombing of a South Korean airliner killed 115 people in 1987.
Gen. Park Jung-i, who co-chaired the investigative committee, said that South Korea would give the evidence to the Armistice Commission that oversees the ceasefire that ended the 1950-1953 on the Korean peninsula. The commission would make the findings available to North Korea, he said.
Asked what defensive moves the South Korean navy is taking to prevent a recurrence, Han said that that the navy would establish anti-submarine detection measures, but admitted the difficulty of detecting an underwater submarine once it has left its base.
Journalist Andrew Salmon, CNN's Mike Mount and CNN's Kyung Lah contributed to this report.
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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/south.korea.sunken.ship/index.html?hpt=T1

[KIWI]

.....and I would think there are better ways to get what we want out of China than this.

China needs us to buy their exports.....without that, they are fucked.


so what happens when the US places an embargo on trade? ..... I would think trade with them is a 1st magnitude reqirement, could your long suffering markets survive an import ban? or would it be the final straw?

Your not wrong though mur insofar as it must be a no-brainer to see that of course it must effect China also to lose the volume of trade already flowing, but its a 2 way street, ... and if it came to a Mexican stand-off between the 2 super-powers .... whose society do ya reckon would handle the ensuing shit better, to what would amount to another drop in living standards and more pressure on your staggering economy.... its why I dont find it hard to see that this is just not a lot of hot air and posturing ...we have what is released through the media spin doctors on one hand... and then we have the cold hard reality of balance sheets.... the US simply need a prescence in the area, a sanctioned excuse accepted by by all their little NATO pals.... and the miraculous find of the Torpedo case , only to be finally topped with the fact there is also NK writing visible!!! , is the perfect excuse. while we are there, if the SK's are US allies, what is the level of technology used in its navy compared to that of NK? .... it must be the latest US tech surely? ....the crews are highly trained, are we seeing another case like 911? .... where in spite of the claims by the US forces, when its time to really react their gear is not up to it?, meaning in this case, how did they get fucked over by a 3rd rate piece of cold-war hardware? ( Im assuming of course that the SK navy is superior in detection equipment, US equipment)

they have a bigger reason to be their , the current episode is just a smokescreen

or of course Im totally wrong :)


What a ship....no wonder 'Made in China ' is
displacing North American made goods big time.
This monster transports goods across the Pacific in about 5 days!!!

This is how Wal-Mart gets its stuff from China . 15,000 containers and a
207' deck beam!

The crew-size: 13 people on a ship longer than a US aircraft carrier (which
has a crew of 5,000).

Notice that 207' beam means it cannot fit through the Panama or Suez Canals .

It is strictly transpacific. Cruise speed: 31 knots.

The goods arrive 4 days before the typical container ship (18-20 knots) on
a China -to-California run. So this behemoth is hugely competitive when
carrying perishable goods.
The ship was built in five sections. The sections floated together and
then welded.

The command bridge is higher than a 10-story building and has 11
cargo crane rigs that can operate simultaneously.


Additional info:

Country of origin - Denmark
Length - 1,302 ft
Width - 207 ft
Net cargo - 123,200 tons
Engine - 14 cylinders in-line diesel engine (110,000 BHP)
Cruise Speed - 31 knots
Cargo capacity - 15,000 TEU (1 TEU = 20 cubic feet)
Crew - 13 people !
First Trip - Sept. 08, 2006
Construction cost - US $145,000,000+

Silicone painting applied to the ship bottom reduces water resistance and saves 317,000 gallons of diesel per year.


A recent documentary in late March on the History Channel noted that nearly
all of these containers are shipped back to China , . Yep, that's right.
We send nothing back on most of these ships. What does that tell you about
the current financial state of this country? Just keep buying those imported
goods (mostly gadgets) until you run out of money.



http://amkon.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=948&stc=1&d=1274531469

[BE2]

but NK bears the responsibility of sinking a ship and killing folks to get food.
You are wrong on that. That little nutcase Kim Jong Il bears the responsibility- not the 20,000,000 people he's holding captive. That's a different problem altogether. Aside from that the US has no dog in this fight. Let China and SK deal with the asshole.

[mur]

http://amkon.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=948&stc=1&d=1274531469


Impressive boat

[mur]

You are wrong on that. That little nutcase Kim Jong Il bears the responsibility- not the 20,000,000 people he's holding captive. That's a different problem altogether. Aside from that the US has no dog in this fight. Let China and SK deal with the asshole.


Well I didn't mean to imply it was the people fault...I was speaking of the leaders....Kimmy has some help.

I'm afraid that SK's problems in this regard are our problems since we will be the ones that have to payoff NK's bad behavior.

Besides...how many troops do we have there?

[mur]

See how NK has manipulated this?


Tensions Mount in Asia; North Korea Prepares for Combat; South Korea Won Sinks to 8-Month Low; Futures Sink, Nikkei Hammered Again (http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/05/tensions-mount-in-asia-north-korea.html)




NK will back down eventually and offer up the "rogue" sub captain in exchange for some food, oil...something.

Maybe another month of saber rattling...but there won't be a war...the south has everything to lose, and the North has nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Damn fucking dangerous ploy/bluff by NK leadership though.

Would anyone not support the US IC murdering this fuck already?

The guy is a prick

[KIWI]

The guy is a prick

shall we sic the Info-maniac-Housewife on him :)

[KIWI]

actually mur the headlines you linked .... notice anything there?

[mur]

actually mur the headlines you linked .... notice anything there?


Not beyond the headlines....what do you see?

[BE2]

oh jeezizzz- don't get him started... :lol:

[mur]

North Korea condemns South over warship claims

By the CNN Wire Staff

STORY HIGHLIGHTS


North Korea denies claim it torpedoed warship
Pyongyang says South Korea fabricated evidence
China, Japan, South Korea address crisis at meeting



(CNN) -- A North Korean official has questioned South Korea's credibility for its rhetoric and actions over the sinking of a South Korean warship in March, state-run media in North Korea reported Saturday.
Maj. Gen. Pak Rim Su lashed out against the South for saying the North Koreans sank the Cheonan warship, a claim fiercely denied by his communist government. He said the evidence produced by South Korea to make its claim has been fabricated.
He said South Korea has aggravated what has become a grave situation, and he warned that any accidental confrontation between the countries would result in war, according to an article in the state-run Korean Central News Agency. He cited North Korea's "nuclear deterrent" to deal with such situations.
Pak spoke at a rare press conference from the country on Friday. He addressed Korean and foreign reporters and representatives of military attaches at foreign embassies and international organizations, the North Korean news agency reported.
China, Japan and South Korea plan to discuss the warship's sinking this weekend. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao has that his country will not defend whoever is responsible for sinking the South Korean warship. He also said that China is not ready to accept South Korea's conclusion that the North is to blame.
China meets with South Korea (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/28/china.koreas/index.html)
South Korea says a North Korean mini-sub fired torpedoes at the Cheonan South Korean Navy ship, killing 46 people. Pak says South Korea cooked up the claim, and he called their investigations a farce.
He said that the involvement of the United States shows that the probe couldn't be objective.
Why are the two Koreas so hostile? (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/north.south.korea.explainer.background/index.html)
Pak said people who disagreed with the investigators' assertions were expelled from the investigation team. He said the changes in investigation results as the case moved forward cast suspicion on the review, according to the state-run news agency's account.
For example, the North Koreans say, the warship captain said at first there wasn't outside provocation but later said there was. And they say the military said at first there were no grounds to say it was an attack by the North but later changed that viewpoint.
The North Koreans say the South is attempting to undermine efforts to promote reconciliation and North Korea's progress. They argue that the claim has served to rally conservative forces in South Korea and help them politically in upcoming elections.
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Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/29/north.korea.warship/index.html?hpt=T2

[KIWI]

Would anyone not support the US IC murdering this fuck already?


I wouldnt ...... you did at least acknowledge it would be a murder though, but that has a different meaning when authorised by the US as we know... dont forget the same sentiments were expressed on 911 Mur... shit, I would have joined a vigilante group to help exterminate the global terrorist threat



South Korea’s won slumped to an eight-month low on growing hostilities with the North ...



its all going to plan:thumright: ... I would say any slump in ther egion is more likely to be due to the fact the US have stuck their big noses in and as we all know the net result will be to blow the fuck outa anything that moves.. ( this has been known to also include their own forces and allies at times :))

[nixon]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/07/23/north.korea.threat/index.html?video=true&hpt=T2

North Korea ramps up threats against military exercises

By the CNN Wire Staff

STORY HIGHLIGHTS


NEW: North Korea says it will counter joint exercise with its "nuclear deterrence"
The military exercise is scheduled to begin Sunday on both South Korean coasts
Clinton: A peaceful resolution is possible only if North Korea changes its behavior
Expert Han Park says North Korean military should not be underestimated



Hanoi, Vietnam (CNN) -- North Korea on Saturday heightened its threats against upcoming U.S.-supported military exercises after talks over the sinking of a South Korean warship.
North Korea "will legitimately counter with [its] powerful nuclear deterrence the largest-ever nuclear war exercises to be staged by the U.S. and the South Korean puppet forces," the state-run KCNA news agency said.
Earlier, the isolated communist nation vowed a "physical response" to massive U.S.-South Korean military drills set to begin Sunday. The U.S. Defense Department said the drills are in response to the sinking of the South Korean warship Cheonan and are intended to send a strong message to Pyongyang to stop "provocative and warlike acts."
At a regional security conference Friday, North Korea lashed out at the impending exercise.
"There will be a physical response against the threat imposed by the United States militarily," North Korea (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/North_Korea) spokesman Ri Tong Il said outside the Association of Southeast Asian Nations meeting in Hanoi, Vietnam.
Two U.S. military officials told there was no sign of significant troop movement in North Korea.
Why are the two Koreas so hostile? (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/north.south.korea.explainer.background/index.html)
About 8,000 military personnel from the United States and South Korea (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/South_Korea) are scheduled to participate in the joint military exercises.
Meanwhile Friday, in the demilitarized zone between the two Koreas, officers from the North sat down for talks about the Cheonan incident with their counterparts in the U.S.-led United Nations Command.
During the almost two-hour meeting in the international truce town of Panmunjom, the U.N. Command reminded the North Koreans of the Security Council's condemnation this month of the Cheonan attack.
The Security Council did not mention North Korea by name but condemned the attack strongly, called for "full adherence" to the armistice agreement that halted fighting in the Korean War in 1953 and encouraged "the settlement of outstanding issues on the Korean peninsula by peaceful means."
An international inquiry found North Korea culpable for the March attack that killed 46 South Korean sailors. But North Korea denies a role in the incident, which elevated tension between the two enemies.
North Korea demanded again Friday that it be allowed to conduct its own investigation of the Cheonan's sinking and said the upcoming war games are being conducted under false pretext.
"The U.S. forces side would be seriously mistaken if it calculates it can browbeat [North Korea] through large-scale war exercises," the state-run KCNA news agency said. "It should immediately stop the [anti-North Korean] nuclear war racket."
"[This] double-dealing attitude is a dangerous one of driving the situation on the Korean Peninsula to a war phase," KCNA said.
At the ASEAN meeting, nation after nation expressed deep regrets and offered condolences to the South Koreans. The United States has accused North Korea of aggressive behavior and imposed new sanctions Wednesday.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton reiterated U.S. support for South Korea on Friday.
"Here in Asia, an isolated and belligerent North Korea has embarked on a campaign of provocative, dangerous behavior," she said in Hanoi, Vietnam.
Later, after a repatriation ceremony for the remains of three soldiers who died in the Vietnam War, Clinton said the door remains open for dialogue if North Korea commits to abandoning its nuclear weapons program.
"We would love for them to have the same opportunities that the people of South Korea have been able to enjoy for the last 60 years," Clinton said. "So, it is distressing when North Korea continues its threats and causes so much anxiety among its neighbors and the larger region."
Ri described the planned U.S.-South Korea joint military exercise as "another example of a hostile policy" against North Korea.
"It is a grave threat to the Korean peninsula and also to the region of Asia as a whole," he said.
He said the exercise is a threat to North Korea's sovereignty and security.
The military exercise, dubbed Invincible Spirit, is scheduled to run from Sunday through Wednesday. In addition to the 8,000 personnel involved, military officials say, it will include 20 ships and submarines and about 200 aircraft.
The exercises are to take place in the Sea of Japan on South Korea's east coast and the Yellow Sea on the west coast, according to a joint U.S. and South Korean statement.
China has objected to war games in the Yellow Sea, so close to its coastline. And that is what bothers North Korea as well, said a University of Georgia professor who returned two weeks ago from his 52nd trip to Pyongyang.
"I think it's a bad idea," said Han Park, who helped arrange former President Carter's visit to North Korea in 1994 and is the only American to have visited the rogue nation since the Cheonan incident.
Park said the United States should never underestimate the resolve of the North Korean military, one that is further emboldened now by Chinese opposition to the military drills.
"I will hold my breath if this takes place anywhere near the west coast," he said.
CNN's Elise Labott, Barbara Starr and Moni Basu contributed to this report.
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