Occupation 101

[Snow Crash]

A very powerful documentary regarding Palestine. Thoughts of Amkon should be interesting to see after this.

-2451908450811690589&ei=ftQjSZSeLJ722wKqqJGnAg&q=occupation+101#

[mur]

I'm sure it's good, but I don't have an hour and a half.

What was the main ideology the documentary wanted to sell?

Both sides have been wrong and continue to be wrong

Apparently not enough blood has yet been spilled.

[Snow Crash]

What was the main ideology the documentary wanted to sell?

Yep, you should DEFINATELY watch it...

[mur]

Why?

It won't stop the blood.

It's to the death....until they both decide it isn't

They aren't ready yet

[skunk]

I'm just pissed we're paying for that shit. If they want to kill each other off, let 'em.

[Snow Crash]

Why?

It won't stop the blood.

It's to the death....until they both decide it isn't

They aren't ready yet

Did I say it would stop the blood?

I said you should watch it. Correct me if I am wrong, but with your first post, you seem to assume its either a Zionist or a Hamas propaganda piece. That's why I said you should watch it.

[mur]

I'm just pissed we're paying for that shit. If they want to kill each other off, let 'em.

I agree with that

Snow...no disrespect, but I cant watch it.

It's too painful to be confronted by the senseless violence.

As far as I'm concerned there is guilt on both sides and neither side wants peace.

It's only a matter of time before what we all know is going to happen

[Snow Crash]

Snow...no disrespect, but I cant watch it.

It's too painful to be confronted by the senseless violence.

That's fine. Pity though...

[mur]

Alright...I'll watch it if you can give me a decent reason why it's worth my time

[Snow Crash]

Alright...I'll watch it if you can give me a decent reason why it's worth my time

Because it might be nice to get a perspective from people other than the fundies?

I dunno... your choice though, entirely. Don't watch if you don't want to. I just thought it'd be a good docu to share.

[mur]

I don't take either side except the nonviolent.

But it won't be over until the Earth there is scorched for neither side is interested in peace that the other will accept

[Snow Crash]

I don't take either side except the nonviolent.

But it won't be over until the Earth there is scorched for neither side is interested in peace that the other will accept

Sooooo....................... are you watching it or not?

[WhispersInTheDark]

In the age of short sharp soundbites, things need to be expressed as fast as a suicide bomber.

[mur]

I skipped around...watched about 20 minutes total.

Like I said, neither side is interested in a peace that the other will accept.

Neither is willing to accept the reality of what the situation is now.

Both sides are going to have to settle if they want the violence to stop.

Each blames the other and both are right and both are wrong.

But that video is biased

[egg]

Why?

It won't stop the blood.

It's to the death....until they both decide it isn't

They aren't ready yet

Agreed.

Edit to add - after reading all of Mur's posts, I think we're in complete agreement.

[Snow Crash]

I skipped around...watched about 20 minutes total.

Like I said, neither side is interested in a peace that the other will accept.

Neither is willing to accept the reality of what the situation is now.

Both sides are going to have to settle if they want the violence to stop.

Each blames the other and both are right and both are wrong.

But that video is biased

Sooooo.... you watched twenty minutes worth and feel you're in a position to comment on the video?

Sounds like you shouldn't have wasted your time Mur. If you were that against watching it, why the fuss?

[MissSilver]

I am downloading it in .mp4 format to view it at my leisure. If it is like the documentary Death in Gaza, I will view it in segment so much those are harsh to watch.


Thanks Snow


If the quality wasn't so iffy, i'd convert it to avi to watch on our dvd player... I might check out torrents later on.

Have you seen Death in Gaza?

[MissSilver]

Never mind... found it on torrents, good quality as well :cool:


http://www.torrentz.com/search?q=Occupation+101

[mur]

Sooooo.... you watched twenty minutes worth and feel you're in a position to comment on the video?

Sounds like you shouldn't have wasted your time Mur. If you were that against watching it, why the fuss?

I'm against watching anything slanted to a particular view point when it comes to this conflict.

Each side blames the other while ignoring their own atrocities.

This video's point is that Israel started it, so they are to blame for all of the conflict, ignoring any violence committed against innocents as justified.

The video offers no solutions...only blame.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but the real courage would be to offer a solution.

What is the solution that actually could exist in reality Snow?

[Hazelnut]

Damn good question Mur. Pride comes before a fall.

[GeneralStriker]

What is the solution that actually could exist in reality Snow? moralistic hatred avoids that issue. common sense does not apply to arabs and Jews I guess..

[pack3tg0st]

moralistic hatred avoids that issue. common sense does not apply to arabs and Jews I guess..

what happened to never stepping foot in the icky pool of whatever it was that you said?

Were you lying through your teeth?

Or displaying the particular style of piss poor ethics that you've become famous for by trolling here for members?

[GeneralStriker]

Or displaying the particular style of piss poor ethics that you've become famous for by trolling here for members? that's it! door number three. you be a putty smart dood.

[pack3tg0st]

that's it! door number three. you be a putty smart dood.

hahahaha

Gotta love how the guy who tries to shove 'ethics' in everyone's faces is the first guy to conduct himself in gross unethical conduct.

What a hypocrite...

BE:

http://amkon.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=696&stc=1&d=1271359428

[GeneralStriker]

gross unethical conductOh my!

[pack3tg0st]

nothing unethical about telling a washed up has been that he should off himself before his supposed self created 'legacy' gets buried under even more shit.

Its just advice.

[skunk]

Were you lying through your teeth?

We have a winner.

[MissSilver]

Indeed

http://pumapac.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sara-special-olympics.jpg

[Snow Crash]

I'm against watching anything slanted to a particular view point when it comes to this conflict.

So then why did you bother, really? If you were that anti, you should have saved the whining and gone off to watch Family Guy or something. Jesus... talk about bitching for the sake of bitching...


This video's point is that Israel started it, so they are to blame for all of the conflict, ignoring any violence committed against innocents as justified.

I see. So you advocate ignorance of history then?


The video offers no solutions...only blame.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but the real courage would be to offer a solution.

Solutions have been offered numerous times. Israel is not interested in peace, so always sabotages negotiations. Hamas does not help either, by giving the Israelis an excuse to attack civillians. In fact, an Israeli politician was killed by a settler once for daring to work for peace...

Of course though, you would know that, right? Or did you only bother to do twenty minutes of research before making that statement?


What is the solution that actually could exist in reality Snow?

Cut off all funding to Israel. Shrink it back to its 1967 borders. If settlers don't like it, they should fuck off back to Europe or North America. The US and UK should purge all civil servants and politicians from its governments who have dual nationality with Israel.

Thats a good start.

[Snow Crash]

moralistic hatred avoids that issue. common sense does not apply to arabs and Jews I guess..

I thought you'd quit?

[Snow Crash]

Have you seen Death in Gaza?

I have not. I'll see if I can dig it up over the weekend. Thanks for the suggestion Sil.

[mur]

So then why did you bother, really? If you were that anti, you should have saved the whining and gone off to watch Family Guy or something. Jesus... talk about bitching for the sake of bitching...

I bothered because you asked and i don't watch family guy



I see. So you advocate ignorance of history then?

Do you really believe that was an unbiased history?



Solutions have been offered numerous times. Israel is not interested in peace, so always sabotages negotiations. Hamas does not help either, by giving the Israelis an excuse to attack civillians. In fact, an Israeli politician was killed by a settler once for daring to work for peace...

Israel is not interested in a peace that says it doesn't exist.
Violence is not the answer...from either side.
But both side should realize the other will exist.



Of course though, you would know that, right? Or did you only bother to do twenty minutes of research before making that statement?

I'm 46 years old, I've studied the region for years...do you honestly believe that biased propaganda piece is the truth? I've seen countless video's of propaganda from both sides.

The truth is that area is going to be nuked and millions will die, and no one is going to have anything....but the conflict will end.

Or both sides could cease fire and negotiate in reality as opposed to fantasy.

But here is a cold reality, Israel has firepower, the other side does not.
It should be clear to Hamas that violence is just not going to get them what they want...

On the other hand, violence gets Israel exactly what they want, a reason to attack.

Think Ghandi, Think MLK, Think period.




Cut off all funding to Israel. Shrink it back to its 1967 borders. If settlers don't like it, they should fuck off back to Europe or North America. The US and UK should purge all civil servants and politicians from its governments who have dual nationality with Israel.

Thats a good start.


It fantasy and it's just not going to happen....but just how much blood needs to be spilled before this is understood?

And propaganda works both ways...


5V6dy3qaLZY

[Snow Crash]

I bothered because you asked and i don't watch family guy

So watch whatever you want to watch. Seriously, if it you had that much of an issue with watching, you shouldn't have bothered. It's no skin off my nose.


Do you really believe that was an unbiased history?

Well by all means, tell us what really happened, if you are an expert.


Israel is not interested in a peace that says it doesn't exist.
Violence is not the answer...from either side.
But both side should realize the other will exist.

So that's why they sabotage the two state solution consistantly. Again, try doing your research.


I'm 46 years old, I've studied the region for years...do you honestly believe that biased propaganda piece is the truth? I've seen countless video's of propaganda from both sides.

I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that it was a propaganda piece after watching less than a quarter of it. Its your assumption that it is just another HAMAS propaganda piece that led me to telling you that you should definately sit down and watch it. But you couldnt be arsed. So why you bothered is really just beyond me.


The truth is that area is going to be nuked and millions will die, and no one is going to have anything....but the conflict will end.

Oh really. And who will do that? You? Or the Evil Iranians/Muslims/Terrorists?


Or both sides could cease fire and negotiate in reality as opposed to fantasy.

So yeah, you have done about twenty minutes research.


But here is a cold reality, Israel has firepower, the other side does not.

So might is right yes? Cool. That's a very civilised attitude.


It should be clear to Hamas that violence is just not going to get them what they want...

On the other hand, violence gets Israel exactly what they want, a reason to attack.

So what would you suggest they do? Just out of interest? Let Israel continue on their current path?


Think Ghandi, Think MLK, Think period.

That would be ideal. But you assume that Ghandi style would work against an apartheid regime. If you're viewed as less than shit, what makes you think your life an opinion means anything?

[mur]

So watch whatever you want to watch. Seriously, if it you had that much of an issue with watching, you shouldn't have bothered. It's no skin off my nose.

You led me to believe it was different, it wasn't




Well by all means, tell us what really happened, if you are an expert.
I'm not an expert, but I don't need to be one to realize that video wasn't a solution for peace, after 5 minutes.



So that's why they sabotage the two state solution consistantly. Again, try doing your research.

You see what you want to see, but the reality is that both sides are not interested in peace that is acceptable to the other.




I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that it was a propaganda piece after watching less than a quarter of it. Its your assumption that it is just another HAMAS propaganda piece that led me to telling you that you should definately sit down and watch it. But you couldnt be arsed. So why you bothered is really just beyond me.

Propaganda might have been too strong a word, but slanted and biased seems appropriate.




Oh really. And who will do that? You? Or the Evil Iranians/Muslims/Terrorists?

I'm not sure who does it, only that it will.




So yeah, you have done about twenty minutes research.


Like this video is the definitive research on the subject.
That is laughable



So might is right yes? Cool. That's a very civilised attitude.


I didn't say it was right, I said it was reality.



So what would you suggest they do? Just out of interest? Let Israel continue on their current path?

I suggest non-violence




That would be ideal. But you assume that Ghandi style would work against an apartheid regime. If you're viewed as less than shit, what makes you think your life an opinion means anything?

Non-violence works.

However if one is to resort to violence, you better have a big stick.

But the reality is that Israel has the biggest stick in the region. It won't be defeated militarily.

It just won't happen

Non-violence is the only feasible method for both sides to get something of what they want.

Another reality is neither one is going to get everything it wants.

And as reality is denied, blood will flow.

[Snow Crash]

You led me to believe it was different, it wasn't

How do you know that to be the case, having only watched less than a quarter of it?


I'm not an expert, but I don't need to be one to realize that video wasn't a solution for peace, after 5 minutes.

Could you perhaps point out for me where exactly it was that I suggested that this video was the answer to all the ills in that region? I must confess, I am having trouble remembering making that statement.


You see what you want to see, but the reality is that both sides are not interested in peace that is acceptable to the other.

I see an apartheid state that uses terrorism and chemical weapons against civillians. What do you see? A bastion of all that is right among the Evil Muslim lands? The Promised Land of the so called Chosen Ones?


Propaganda might have been too strong a word, but slanted and biased seems appropriate.

So again, having only watched less than a quarter of the vid, what makes you think you are in a position to make that statement?


I'm not sure who does it, only that it will.

And what leads you to that conclusion?


Like this video is the definitive research on the subject.
That is laughable

Who said it was?


I didn't say it was right, I said it was reality.

I suggest non-violence

Non-violence works.

However if one is to resort to violence, you better have a big stick.

But the reality is that Israel has the biggest stick in the region. It won't be defeated militarily.

It just won't happen

Non-violence is the only feasible method for both sides to get something of what they want.

Another reality is neither one is going to get everything it wants.

And as reality is denied, blood will flow.

Ok, so please, do tell me how you propose this can be solved with peaceful methods. I'd love to see how Ghandi would deal with this.

[WITCH HUNT]

That would be ideal. But you assume that Ghandi style would work against an apartheid regime. If you're viewed as less than shit, what makes you think your life an opinion means anything?

Thanks Snow, I did watch it. It didn't change my mind because it is like so many other propaganda pieces about this conflict. SLANTED! It shows the demolition of homes, but not the reason. It shows human suffering but not the cause.

Since the Camp David Accords to the Gang of Four and their road map to peace, there have been numerous attemps to build a lasting peace in the region. Bill Clinton even got Isreal to give back portions of the Occupied Territory, remember "land for peace?" You know what derailed those attempts, Hamas rockets! If Hamas and Hezbullah would stop kidnapping Isrealis, stop the indescriminate shelling of Isreali suberbs, and stop the suicide bombing, you would be surprised how fast Isreal pulls out.

Unfortunately, it would seem that Mur is right, Not enough blood has been spilled yet.

[Snow Crash]

Thanks Snow, I did watch it. It didn't change my mind because it is like so many other propaganda pieces about this conflict. SLANTED! It shows the demolition of homes, but not the reason. It shows human suffering but not the cause.

Actually, it did show the cause. It also showed the cause for the Palestinian resistance against Zionist Apartheid.


Since the Camp David Accords to the Gang of Four and their road map to peace, there have been numerous attemps to build a lasting peace in the region. Bill Clinton even got Isreal to give back portions of the Occupied Territory, remember "land for peace?" You know what derailed those attempts, Hamas rockets! If Hamas and Hezbullah would stop kidnapping Isrealis, stop the indescriminate shelling of Isreali suberbs, and stop the suicide bombing, you would be surprised how fast Isreal pulls out.

Unfortunately, it would seem that Mur is right, Not enough blood has been spilled yet.

Hahaha... do you really think that Israel would stop expanding into Palestinian territory and occupying parts of Lebanon if Hezbollah and Hamas stopped their actions? Hezbollah, for example, are the only ones who have prevented Israel from seizing southern Lebanon as their own.

Oh, and please, don't try and pin this all on the Palestinians. You're telling me that Hamas controls what goes down regarding Israeli policy on building settlers homes in East Jerusalem when Joe Biden comes to meet Netanyahu? To suggest as such in turn suggests that you should vary your news sources from Murdoch Brand News.

[mur]

How do you know that to be the case, having only watched less than a quarter of it?

It wasn't difficult




Could you perhaps point out for me where exactly it was that I suggested that this video was the answer to all the ills in that region? I must confess, I am having trouble remembering making that statement.

You said I did less than 20 minutes of research into the subject, implying that watching the full biased slanted would somehow cure my ignorance.

I didn't even need to watch 5 minutes, but I watched 4, 5 minute segments, the tone/slant/bias never changed.

It's selling a particular ideology, you bought it and that's great.

It justifies the violence for you.

Well expect a lot more blood because until the violence stops, the violence will continue.




I see an apartheid state that uses terrorism and chemical weapons against civillians. What do you see? A bastion of all that is right among the Evil Muslim lands? The Promised Land of the so called Chosen Ones?

Why do you continue to put words in my mouth?

I see death and destruction and an unwillingness on either side to stop.

One side has a much bigger stick




So again, having only watched less than a quarter of the vid, what makes you think you are in a position to make that statement?

Because the video denies the reality of exactly how we got to this reality.

You deny it too.




And what leads you to that conclusion?


Because neither side wants peace, neither side is willing to give the other what they want, so if they can;t have it, nobody will.



Who said it was?


You implied that I'm not qualified to comment about the conflict unless I watch a biased video. I said I've seen them before, on both sides.
I said i have no use for these types of videos because they offer no solutions except hatred, justification for violence, and bigotry.

Whatever these types of videos, from both sides, had hoped to accomplish, it's been a failure, because the blood is still flowing and no one has gotten what they want.

There could be thousand of these types of videos, from both sides and it won't change a goddamn thing.

VIOLENCE HASN'T WORKED

HOW MANY MORE HAVE TO DIE?

Non-violence has a chance.

The other way is death and destructuion



Ok, so please, do tell me how you propose this can be solved with peaceful methods. I'd love to see how Ghandi would deal with this.

That is exactly why violence fails...but hey, don't let me stop you, go fight and die for the cause.

Oh...you aren't that committed?

But you condone the deaths of others?

Shame on you.

Hearts and minds cannot be won through violence....especially when the other side has a massive killing machine at it's disposal.

The current path is hopeless...that's the reality.

Time for a new path

Unless the outcome is to be death and destruction...which is what we have right now.

[WITCH HUNT]

Actually, it did show the cause. It also showed the cause for the Palestinian resistance against Zionist Apartheid.
Yeah, the occupation, I get it. Six day war, Yom Kippor, ring a bell?




Hahaha... do you really think that Israel would stop expanding into Palestinian territory and occupying parts of Lebanon if Hezbollah and Hamas stopped their actions? Hezbollah, for example, are the only ones who have prevented Israel from seizing southern Lebanon as their own.

Oh, and please, don't try and pin this all on the Palestinians. You're telling me that Hamas controls what goes down regarding Israeli policy on building settlers homes in East Jerusalem when Joe Biden comes to meet Netanyahu? To suggest as such in turn suggests that you should vary your news sources from Murdoch Brand News.

They tried remember, "road map to peace", again Hamas rockets.

Do you know me, do you know how I get my news. No you don't. So why assume that I watch fox, and why would you think less of me if I did?

[WITCH HUNT]

Hey, we all know about the military ties between the U.S. and Isreal, but what about the ties between Syria and the Palestinians:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/world/middleeast/15israel.html

[century]

Unfortunately, it would seem that Mur is right, Not enough blood has been spilled yet.

No need, just cut off the funding

[century]

Soon as the Israelis quite getting money they would theoretically have to resort to using all their weapons.............but eventually they will run out.

[mur]

No need, just cut off the funding

I can agree with that.

And I'm inclined to bring all the troops home.

[century]

Who would support the Israelis if we pulled out? Britain?

[WITCH HUNT]

I think we all can agree that those little Palestinian kids living in camps without the most basic infrastructure, is very sad. You know what is sadder than that, when Arafat died, he had about $300 million in French bank accounts. Hmmmmm!

[mur]

Soon as the Israelis quite getting money they would theoretically have to resort to using all their weapons.............but eventually they will run out.

Cutting off the funding won't stop the conflict....and it may actually escalate it.

[WITCH HUNT]

Who would support the Israelis if we pulled out? Britain?

How about this guy:

http://www.rushprnews.com/press/wp-content/2008/10/larry_king.jpg

[WITCH HUNT]

Cutting off the funding won't stop the conflict....and it may actually escalate it.

We have a WINNER!

That is exactly what will happen.

[century]

We have a WINNER!

That is exactly what will happen.

Well of course......in the beginning, but eventually things will die down and the UN can come in and clean up the mess.

[Snow Crash]

It wasn't difficult

Really? What made you think it was a Hamas propaganda piece? All the Jews commenting on the Israeli occupation?


You said I did less than 20 minutes of research into the subject, implying that watching the full biased slanted would somehow cure my ignorance.

I see sarcasm doesn't translate well to you Mur. Oh well. Oh, and by the by, what I said doesn't imply that. That may you be your perception, but that might be your preconceptions at work.


I didn't even need to watch 5 minutes, but I watched 4, 5 minute segments, the tone/slant/bias never changed.

Sounds like a justification for not being bothered to watch something entirely before commenting on it, frankly. And as I said previously, if you were going to get this pissy over it, you just shouldn't have bothered. Watch it, don't watch it, I could not possibly care less.


It's selling a particular ideology, you bought it and that's great.

Oh really? And what 'ideology' would that be?


It justifies the violence for you.

Question: Where do you live, Mur? I don't need street and house number, but I am just curious as to where about roughly.


Well expect a lot more blood because until the violence stops, the violence will continue.

How ironic!


Why do you continue to put words in my mouth?

I am just trying to fathom your perceptions is all. You seem to have a very might is right attitude, which is rather typical of Israeli apologists. Of course, you may not be one, but it is typical of them nonetheless.


Because the video denies the reality of exactly how we got to this reality.

You deny it too.

Oh really? And in what way does it deny that reality? And in what way do I deny that reality, in your opinion? And in what way are you better poised to tell what is history and what is fabrication ahead of the UN, various human rights organisations, various governments, political and military historians, and news reporters? I thought you were going to give me a history lesson?


Because neither side wants peace, neither side is willing to give the other what they want, so if they can;t have it, nobody will.

I am curious: what is it you think Zionism wants? And what is it you think the Palestinians want?


You implied that I'm not qualified to comment about the conflict unless I watch a biased video. I said I've seen them before, on both sides.
I said i have no use for these types of videos because they offer no solutions except hatred, justification for violence, and bigotry.

Actually, I said you were in no position to comment on the content of the video having watched less than a quarter of it. I wasn't attacking your view; just your laziness. Please quote me correctly.


Whatever these types of videos, from both sides, had hoped to accomplish, it's been a failure, because the blood is still flowing and no one has gotten what they want.

There could be thousand of these types of videos, from both sides and it won't change a goddamn thing.

An interesting disregard for the power of media there. I suppose you think that the media airbrushed in white phosphorus chemical weapons being used on the Gaza Strip in realtime, right? Its just propaganda, after all. Al Jazeera had a live camera feed from the Strip when the recent invasion wnet down. Was that propaganda too? After all, thats an Arabic station, therefore it MUST be antisemetic, right? The Israelis running over, shooting, and bombing aid workers and UN personnel is just propaganda too? I guess I missed the news that the UN and Amnesty International worked for HAMAS.


VIOLENCE HASN'T WORKED

HOW MANY MORE HAVE TO DIE?

Many more, until either the left in Israel dislodges the Likudniks and the settlers lobbies, and negotiates for peace as opposed to jerking around the peace processes, or until Israel achieves its aim of restoring Greater Israel.

Hmmm. Didn't another far right state have dreams about a Greater something-or-other?


Non-violence has a chance.

The other way is death and destructuion

So come on then, tell us how you propose to end it all peacefully. Money where mouth is time, Mur.


That is exactly why violence fails...but hey, don't let me stop you, go fight and die for the cause.

Oh...you aren't that committed?

But you condone the deaths of others?

Shame on you.

Hearts and minds cannot be won through violence....especially when the other side has a massive killing machine at it's disposal.

The current path is hopeless...that's the reality.

Time for a new path

Unless the outcome is to be death and destruction...which is what we have right now.

Right, so I see you don't actually have an answer to my question, and instead shall attempt to paint me as some kind of a war hawk.

Thanks for playing Mur.

[Snow Crash]

Yeah, the occupation, I get it. Six day war, Yom Kippor, ring a bell?

ROFL! Is that your justification for what has been done to the Palestinians?

Jesus, that's a reach even by your standards.


They tried remember, "road map to peace", again Hamas rockets.

Ah yes, because Israeli wasn't doing anything provocative, was it? I seem to not have got the memo that butter wouldn't melt in their mouths.


Do you know me, do you know how I get my news. No you don't. So why assume that I watch fox, and why would you think less of me if I did?

Apologies if I hit a nerve there. You may not watch it. Oh, and I tend to think less of anyone who watches Faux, because its... well, tell ya what, watch Outfoxed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlI97TFims4) and see if you can fathom why I have a complete lack of respect for Fox News. The other parts are in the related vids on the right.

[Snow Crash]

Hey, we all know about the military ties between the U.S. and Isreal, but what about the ties between Syria and the Palestinians:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/world/middleeast/15israel.html

And your point is?

[Snow Crash]

Cutting off the funding won't stop the conflict....and it may actually escalate it.

In what way, do you feel? And what is your alternative?

[Snow Crash]

We have a WINNER!

That is exactly what will happen.

And what do you base that on, out of curiousity?

[Snow Crash]

I think we all can agree that those little Palestinian kids living in camps without the most basic infrastructure, is very sad. You know what is sadder than that, when Arafat died, he had about $300 million in French bank accounts. Hmmmmm!

So? Everyone knows that Arafat was a corrupt sack of shit.

Ohhhhh! I get it! You thought I was a Hamas/Fatah fanboi, right? Hahaha...

[mur]

This is pointless because we obviously don't understand each other.

Your implying that Israel alone holds the key to peace....that Israel alone stands in the way of peace.

That's not the reality Snow....although it may be a piece of it.

My original point about the video was that my opinion would not be changed by a one sided "documentary".

All sides have to be considered and anything short of that adds gasoline to the fire

To move forward, all involved are going to have to settle for something they don't want.

Clearly that's not happening Snow.

Welcome to reality

[mur]

In what way, do you feel? And what is your alternative?


Cutting off the funding will be seen as a victory for Hamas, their "donations" will increase to the point that they will receive more weapons and they will use them...more people will die.

This would be a serious miscalculation though...Israel could continue the conflict for 20-30 years , without being resupplied.

Most of the blood, won't be Israeli.

But hey, suicide bombing seems to work great in winning over hearts and minds. :rolleyes:

[GeneralStriker]

Your implying that Israel alone holds the key to peace....that Israel alone stands in the way of peace.

That's not the reality Snow....although it may be a piece of it.It's by far the greater piece of it. Israel could end this by simply returning to its pre-'67 borders in exchange for recognition and inclusion in the neighborhood. That plan was was offered by the Saudis in 2002 and endorsed by every state in the region except Israel. The ball is clearly in Israel's court. If they truly want peace- and not territory- the choice is theirs. And as far as Snowman's video is concerned- it is moralistic propaganda, no doubt. But it's also the slogan of a just cause.

[Snow Crash]

This is pointless because we obviously don't understand each other.

Your implying that Israel alone holds the key to peace....that Israel alone stands in the way of peace.

That's not the reality Snow....although it may be a piece of it.

Ya know Mur, for someone who reckons they know what reality is, you seem awfully shy about telling me what it is. Are you just going to tell me I don't know and leave it at that? Or are you going to show me why I don't know?

See, I know that currently, Israel cannot be defeated militarily. So therefore, change has to come from within. THUS, by logic, Israel holds the key to peace, and it also blocks the path to peace. I would like nothing more than for the left in Israel to get into power and begin curbing the influence of settlers and militarist fuckheads. I don't see that happening though until such time as the funding starts to dry up.


My original point about the video was that my opinion would not be changed by a one sided "documentary".

And my counter to that was that you shouldn't have bothered, seeing as you clearly couldn't be arsed to give it the time of day. Like I said, it doesn't bother me, I just thought it would be an interesting documentary to put on Amkon is all. I wasn't forcing you to watch it now, was I?

Or was I?


All sides have to be considered and anything short of that adds gasoline to the fire

To move forward, all involved are going to have to settle for something they don't want.

Clearly that's not happening Snow.

So again, I shall ask you: What is it you think Zionism wants, and what is it you think the Palestinians want?


Welcome to reality

I am still waiting on the history of what really happened, by the way.

[Snow Crash]

Cutting off the funding will be seen as a victory for Hamas, their "donations" will increase to the point that they will receive more weapons and they will use them...more people will die.

This would be a serious miscalculation though...Israel could continue the conflict for 20-30 years , without being resupplied.

Most of the blood, won't be Israeli.

But hey, suicide bombing seems to work great in winning over hearts and minds. :rolleyes:

So again, what is your alternative?

[GeneralStriker]

re-post because it's lost in the shuffle...


Your implying that Israel alone holds the key to peace....that Israel alone stands in the way of peace.

That's not the reality Snow....although it may be a piece of it. It's by far the greater piece of it. Israel could end this by simply returning to its pre-'67 borders in exchange for recognition and inclusion in the neighborhood. That plan was was offered by the Saudis in 2002 and endorsed by every state in the region except Israel. The ball is clearly in Israel's court. If they truly want peace- and not territory- the choice is theirs. And as far as Snowman's video is concerned- it is moralistic propaganda, no doubt. But it's also the slogan of a just cause.

[guinnessford]

Maybe cuz theyre too greedy to give back what they stole in the first place.

If a land without borders was possible, that may end HALF the violence.

Not everyone could be happy about it, but it may quell some nastiness for a bit.

[GeneralStriker]

If a land without borders was possible, that may end HALF the violence.As long as it weren't applied selectively. Test yourself on your adherence to that principle.

[WITCH HUNT]

So? Everyone knows that Arafat was a corrupt sack of shit.

Ohhhhh! I get it! You thought I was a Hamas/Fatah fanboi, right? Hahaha...

No I don't. I don't make assumptions about people I have never met. Except IEF, and let's be honest, those aren't really assumptions are they?

The point I was making about Arafat was that he didn't care about Palestinians. Neither does most muslim governments. They are just using them to bleed Isreal dry. Isreal didn't break the last couple of deals, Hamas did. Iran and Syria will not rest until Isreal is utterly destroyed(their own words). Yet Isreal is still willing to bargin in good faith.

[MissSilver]

When kids are indoctrinated enough to write stuff like that...



http://static.flickr.com/45/192642683_915cc8eda3_o_d.jpg


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http://static.flickr.com/72/192642682_2fea4cce66_o_d.jpg


It is safe to conclude that they are not taught to love but rather to hate as this generation grows up. I am wondering what they will in turn teach their own offspring.



Dear Lebanese/Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Christians – Kids, Die with love.
Yours,
Israeli Kids


I am unsure which is worse. Hitler's youth or them.

[GeneralStriker]

Yet Isreal is still willing to bargin in good faith. i rather think not.

[Snow Crash]

The point I was making about Arafat was that he didn't care about Palestinians. Neither does most muslim governments. They are just using them to bleed Isreal dry.

Please elaborate. In what way did Fatah have access to the national coffers of The United States of America Israel?


Isreal didn't break the last couple of deals, Hamas did.

Interesting. What do you reckon prompts the attacks on Israel?


Yet Isreal is still willing to bargin in good faith.

LOL! You're joking, right?

[mur]

re-post because it's lost in the shuffle...

It's by far the greater piece of it. Israel could end this by simply returning to its pre-'67 borders in exchange for recognition and inclusion in the neighborhood. That plan was was offered by the Saudis in 2002 and endorsed by every state in the region except Israel. The ball is clearly in Israel's court. If they truly want peace- and not territory- the choice is theirs. And as far as Snowman's video is concerned- it is moralistic propaganda, no doubt. But it's also the slogan of a just cause.


A return to the pre 67 borders IF it would stop the blood shed would be a fair goal.

But I doubt it would work for the reason that the militant's and extremists want the total elimination of Israel.

Those are the ones that will never be satisfied, they are they ones with the weapons who fight the war and they have just as much childrens blood on their hands as any Israeli if not more.

And Israeli's are not the only one indoctrinating their young.


eTGbP55HGi8


Both sides are not interested in peace

[egg]

A return to the pre 67 borders IF it would stop the blood shed would be a fair goal.

But I doubt it would work for the reason that the militant's and extremists want the total elimination of Israel.

Those are the ones that will never be satisfied, they are they ones with the weapons who fight the war and they have just as much childrens blood on their hands as any Israeli if not more.

And Israeli's are not the only one indoctrinating their young.


eTGbP55HGi8

Mur, you're too right. I said it before on this site and I'll say it again, when Israel (or the Arab state - unlikely) is utterly destroyed, there will be peace in the middle east. I think the Palestinians and Israelis should be looking to the horrible leaders they have and pointing a few fingers at them.


Both sides are not interested in peace

[egg]

Please elaborate. In what way did Fatah have access to the national coffers of The United States of America Israel?

Interesting. What do you reckon prompts the attacks on Israel?

LOL! You're joking, right?

Although, I will most certainly agree that the government under Netanyahu is in no way a trustworthy one, the Israelis did try several times at fair dealing when that scheister Arafat was in charge.

[Snow Crash]

Although, I will most certainly agree that the government under Netanyahu is in no way a trustworthy one, the Israelis did try several times at fair dealing when that scheister Arafat was in charge.

Rabin tried and he got whacked by a settler.

[MissSilver]

And Israeli's are not the only one indoctrinating their young.


Fair enough


http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/197245307_f0b2ceab91_o.jpg


http://sabbah.biz/mt/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/197226681_b3290c4234_o.jpg


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Better?

[mur]

This thread is a reasonable representation of the current conflict....and we don't even have any skin in the game!

Think about our opinions and how much more they must be for those living the nightmare.

Both sides think they are right and the other wrong.

Both sides have an unreasonable assessment of the others guilt.

We cannot even agree here that both sides are to blame for senseless violence.

We revert back to who started what or who's atrocities are more gruesome.

There's no talk of solutions, save the return to the 67 borders.

I'm okay with that, but Hamas is going to have to give up something also.

Maybe they should give up their weapons?

I don't know.

Snow asked me what the solution might be to the conflict.

I don't know, except that violence hasn't worked, it has only resulted in the deaths of countless innocents.

Non-violence has worked...with similar situations

Look at South Africa...while it wasn't a conflict completely with out violence, compared to the Mideast conflict it's been a huge success story.

Looking back to when I was growing up in the 70's, I never would have thought that the South African conflict would have been settled before the Mideast or as peacefully as it was.

Hearts and minds are not moved to change with violence or threats of violence.

Clearly since Hamas cannot defeat Israel militarily, a non violent approach is the ONLY way.

It should also be clear To Hamas that Israel has the means to answer violence with a devastatingly amount of increased violence.

I liken it to someone trying to stop a fast moving train by getting in front of it. This is what Hamas is doing, but they are also forcing their children and civilians to get in front of the fast moving train as well. It's virtual suicide, and for their families.

The way to solve the crisis, is that both sides have to be willing to accept something that they are not currently willing to accept.....and that both sides need to fear the consequences of continued violence.

Right now they don't and you can't force it.

This is the reason I say that either there will be peace, or the area is completely destroyed, probably nuked by both.

[Snow Crash]

Unfortunately Mur, while I applaud you apparent dedication to peaceful solution, you are not only downplaying historical fact, you are making light of the attitudes of both Zionism and Palestinian resistance. Failure to understand/recognise WHAT Zionism is and how it in turn has caused Palestinian resistance makes hollow any claims to understand the situation.

You also seem to say 'HAMAS' alot, as if HAMAS is the be all and end all of Palesinian authority. It is not. It is in control of the Gaza Strip. Fatah controls the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority, lead by Mahomoud Abbas, has on numerous occasions sat down to talk with Israel, and has been fucked around by Israel. While the diplomats talk peace, the government in Tel Aviv is busy building settlements. IN THE WEST BANK.

So therefore, the question must be: why does Israel continue to build in a terrirtory not controlled by HAMAS? If it is that interested in peace, why continue to do what antagonizes the most?

[mur]

I don't agree with more settlements.

I mention Hamas because they are the most visible militant/extremists.

I'm not making light of the history of what has occurred, I'm saying it has been a failure and it is time for a non-violent approach. As long as the oppressed in this region justify and condone violence, the hearts and minds of the world will turn a blind eye....for the most part.

But what Israel probably fears most is that the other side in the conflict would actually turn non-violent.....and Israel would no longer have the excuse to return violence with dramatically more violence.

Will it happen overnight? No.

But it's been what? 43 plus years?

Will it take another 40 year of violence to realize it won't work?

Israel will not be defeated militarily, (unless nuked).

Or perhaps 10 to 20 years of peaceful demonstrations, with minimal blood?

What has a better chance of succeeding in winning the hearts and minds of the world?

What has a better chance of actually obtaining a peace that everyone involved can live with?

Believe it or not, the Palestinians hold their own destiny in their hands.

[WITCH HUNT]

Please elaborate. In what way did Fatah have access to the national coffers of The United States of America Israel?



Interesting. What do you reckon prompts the attacks on Israel?



LOL! You're joking, right?

When I said bleed Isreal dry, I meant that literally, with blood not dollars.

What prompts the attacks on Isreal? Probably good old fashioned biblical anger.

Oh, before I forget, you can't touch a nerve, much less one of mine! lol

[Snow Crash]

What prompts the attacks on Isreal? Probably good old fashioned biblical anger.

Say no more. I now know how much stock to put in your thoughts on thsi subject.


Oh, before I forget, you can't touch a nerve, much less one of mine! lol

If you insist...

[GeneralStriker]

After all this forelock tugging and misplaced passion there remains only one solution. Two States based on the operative UN resolutions. That requires that Israel return to its pre-67 borders and end its apartheid policies towards the the Palestinians. It also requires that both sides reject violence towards one another in good faith once these terms are agreed to. There are not 'many' paths to peace- just one. Hamas sucks. Netanyahu is a major league prick. Those facts are a given. Neither is a legitimate bargaining partner. That is also a given. Can they be overcome by their respective peoples? I believe they can and will be. It may take a Sadat moment but such moments are neither impossible nor unprecedented. The lynch pin of the entire shitfest may yet be Barack Obama's principle of the unclenched fist as enunciated in his famous Cairo speech. As in all things, implementation ultimately resides with the people- not with the propagandists.

I notice here in this thread there are two diametrically opposed points of view- and that both are derived from the slogans of the propagandists of one side or the other: The Jews are fighting for survival and the Arabs are fighting for freedom. Both arguments are simplistic half truths. The real truth is that the people want only to be left in peace on their own little patches of the planet to do what they will do. It's not really all that hard to understand.

[GeneralStriker]

But I doubt it would work for the reason that the militant's and extremists want the total elimination of Israel.The same can be rightly said of Israeli extremists- that they want the total elimination of the Palestinians. So? As long as we allow the extremists on either side to define the issue certainly you're justified in "doubt(ing) that it would work." Isn't it time to listen to the hopes and desires of the people?

[mur]

The same can be rightly said of Israeli extremists- that they want the total elimination of the Palestinians. So? As long as we allow the extremists on either side to define the issue certainly you're justified in "doubt(ing) that it would work." Isn't it time to listen to the hopes and desires of the people?

I repeatedly have said both sides share in the blame

[GeneralStriker]

Well now that we've laid blame- how about transcending it? you can't score if you don't kick.

[mur]

You must not be reading my posts

[GeneralStriker]

i am indeed reading your posts. you're tugging your forelocks and being negative- just as the Snowman is.

[GeneralStriker]

and as i've said- every foodfight starts with the first pie. that pie belonged to Israel.

[mur]

I call 'em how I see them.

I see leaders who aren't interested in stopping the violence....on both sides.

Continued violence is not the answer

[mur]

and as i've said- every foodfight starts with the first pie. that pie belonged to Israel.


Now you're assigning blame as well and that is counter productive

[GeneralStriker]

Not blame- just fact. It's a fact of history that Israel tossed the first pie by chasing the Palestinians from their new state in 1947-8. And it stands to reason that the peace should start with them too. Rabin tried and was murdered for his efforts. I had some hope for Barak but he was voted out by Likud. Abu Mazen tried but found no-one to bargain with. But there remains people of good faith on both sides and the hope resides in them. It's well nigh time to let go of the propaganda and fixed ideas. There has existed a framework for a two state solution since the 60s. The best thinkers on both sides- like Rabin, Jimmy Carter and Edward Said- and , yes- Yasser Arafat, have embraced it. The shallow thinkers and haters have now risen to the top. Don't for a minute accept their negativity and lies.

[GeneralStriker]

The shallow thinkers and haters have now risen to the top. Don't for a minute accept their negativity and lies. Point of clarification-- By this I don't mean Snowman and Mur, by the way. I'm referring to Hamas and Likud and their knee-jerk apologists.

[mur]

The Palestinians absolutely have to renounce violence, otherwise it supplies Israel with all the ammo it needs.

Israel needs to renounce it as well, but it claims it is only defending itself.

Only the Palestinians can take that excuse away

[GeneralStriker]

as it stands they are both defending themselves. the obligation to renounce must come first from the stronger, not the weaker. what other reason can there be for strength to begin with if not to reserve the right to act bravely and ethically?

[mur]

Are you actually a student of history?

The scenario you just laid out has never happened.

Never has the stronger renounced violence first....has it?

Israel does this and they will be attacked...repeatedly.

MLK was non-violent from the start, so to Ghandi, and for the most past the South Africans.

Hamas and Palestinians that support them have basically issued an ultimatum that threatens violence unless they get what they want.

This ultimatum has cost the lives of countless innocence.

But hey, maybe in your world of nirvana, the strong would actually renounce violence...but this conflict has a reality to it that is unique.

The Palestinians have to be much smarter then they have been.

I'm starting to give credence to the thought that the leaders of Hamas are prepared to sacrifice unwilling women and children as martyrs for their cause.

You've heard of suicide by cop?

How about suicide by Israeli army?

No...violence must be rejected by the Palestinians first...that's the reality.

Everyone should know that Israel already claims to reject it, for they claim to be acting in self defense

[mur]

Oh...and when Israel bombs the Iranian reactors, that will be called self defense as well

[GeneralStriker]

The scenario you just laid out has never happened.

Never has the stronger renounced violence first....has it?Ever heard of Viet Nam?

[mur]

Are you actually claiming the US renounced violence?

It's completely different...Vietnam was not the US homeland.

You'll disagree, I'm sure but, Israel is the Jewish homeland...they are living there.

No American chose Vietnam as their homeland

And the US did not renounce violence for peace...we just left because we had no will to fight.

Big difference

[GeneralStriker]

you asked if the "stronger (has ever) renounced violence first" and i gave you a perfect example. now you've moved the goal posts with provisos about homelands and will to fight. and i'd remind you that superior armies do not always prevail- even on their own territory. victories by the weaker are legend. it has been said that wars of liberation are won simply by not losing. Cuba is an excellent example of that principle. another is Afghanistan in its war with the USSR. if the current intifada against occupation continues in Palestine that will indeed be the result- success by the simple expediency of survival- and at a huge cost to both sides. this is a war that Israel cannot win. aside from the righteousness of either cause, demographics alone dictates that truth.

[mur]

I prefer reality to fantasy.

Israel won't be defeated militarily.

Palestinians will continue to die until their leaders embrace non violence.

Isn't 40 plus years enough blood?

Why the same old same old strategy.

If you haven't noticed, they are losing badly

[Snow Crash]

Hey Mur, your neutral Ghandi-esque mask is slipping...

[GeneralStriker]

Israel won't be defeated militarily.that may be true. they'll lose by being rope-a-doped in the best traditions of Muhammad- Ali, that is.

[mur]

Hey Mur, your neutral Ghandi-esque mask is slipping...

hahaha...I never said I was neutral...only that a non violent solution is the last best hope for peace

[GeneralStriker]

that's what the Tories told General Washington.

[GeneralStriker]

has there ever been a time when justice was on the side of an occupier?

[Snow Crash]

hahaha...I never said I was neutral...only that a non violent solution is the last best hope for peace

So I guess I was right then. You are an Israeli apologist.

[GeneralStriker]

that's been clear since the beginning of this argument.

[Snow Crash]

has there ever been a time when justice was on the side of an occupier?

Ooo! I know when! It was when the Coalition of the Corporate Willing occupied Iraq to remove an ally of Al Qaeda get the WMDs spread democracy save the Iraqis from Saddam get the oil!

[Snow Crash]

that's been clear since the beginning of this argument.

It has, but I wanted to see how long it would be before he actually made it so inescapably clear it sunk his whole Ghandi bollocks.

[GeneralStriker]

Ooo! I know when! It was when the Coalition of the Corporate Willing occupied Iraq to remove an ally of Al Qaeda get the WMDs spread democracy save the Iraqis from Saddam get the oil! Mur voted for that guy too, unfortunately. He always seems to side with the Big Lie mob. Even on Amkon issues. Go figure.

[hp]

...never to set foot in that icky feelings pool ever again. -BoycottEverything at HM in reference to Amkon

[Snow Crash]

Mur voted for that guy too, unfortunately. He always seems to side with the Big Lie mob.

That explains a few things.

[mur]

that's what the Tories told General Washington.

Times have changed...Israel won't be defeated militarily....unless nuked.

And it wasn't the British Homeland.

[mur]

has there ever been a time when justice was on the side of an occupier?

Hello..Jeurusalem...founded by Jews

[GeneralStriker]

when?

[mur]

So I guess I was right then. You are an Israeli apologist.


Define me however you want.

I seek a realistic end to the violence....not fantasy what ifs

[GeneralStriker]

no- you seek success for the occupation. that's fantasy of the highest order.

[Snow Crash]

Define me however you want.

I seek a realistic end to the violence....not fantasy what ifs

Including extermination of a native people by foreigners to secure a 'homeland' along biblical borders?

You know... I may have some Roman blood in me. I think its about time I invaded Italy...

[mur]

Mur voted for that guy too, unfortunately. He always seems to side with the Big Lie mob. Even on Amkon issues. Go figure.


What big lie?

Obama in Wall Streets pocket?

[GeneralStriker]

aren't you the same guy who works for a big insurance company? or is that a different Mur? maybe i'm confused...

[pack3tg0st]

...never to set foot in that icky feelings pool ever again. -BoycottEverything at HM in reference to Amkon

[mur]

no- you seek success for the occupation. that's fantasy of the highest order.

I could say you support the countless deaths of innocents.

All this playground rhetoric, rings shallow to the needless deaths of children.

Both sides are responsible, but all they can manage to do is point fingers.

Neither side cares about peace....

That's the reality fools!

[mur]

Including extermination of a native people by foreigners to secure a 'homeland' along biblical borders?

You know... I may have some Roman blood in me. I think its about time I invaded Italy...

Go for it

[Snow Crash]

Might is right, yes Mur?

[mur]

when?


A long time ago.

Fact is that either both sides can learn to live with each other, or they can die together.

Right now, they are content to die together.

When they have a voice for non violence, maybe the world will listen.

[mur]

no- you seek success for the occupation. that's fantasy of the highest order.

Words like occupation imply the destruction of Israel by its meaning.

Words like that Keep the conflict going .....Yassar Boycott :moon:

[mur]

Might is right, yes Mur?


No...however I wouldn't venture to stop a train going 90mph by jumping in front of it....and forcing women and children to do the same.

You are condoning violence, and the senseless death of innocents.

How much more blood will it take for you to realize that Israel cannot be defeated militarily.
Non violence is the only course that has a chance.

There is no other way

[GeneralStriker]

This is the bare-bones truth and the obvious solution.

After all this forelock tugging and misplaced passion there remains only one solution. Two States based on the operative UN resolutions. That requires that Israel return to its pre-67 borders and end its apartheid policies towards the the Palestinians. It also requires that both sides reject violence towards one another in good faith once these terms are agreed to. There are not 'many' paths to peace- just one. Hamas sucks. Netanyahu is a major league prick. Those facts are a given. Neither is a legitimate bargaining partner. That is also a given. Can they be overcome by their respective peoples? I believe they can and will be. It may take a Sadat moment but such moments are neither impossible nor unprecedented. The lynch pin of the entire shitfest may yet be Barack Obama's principle of the unclenched fist as enunciated in his famous Cairo speech. As in all things, implementation ultimately resides with the people- not with the propagandists.

I notice here in this thread there are two diametrically opposed points of view- and that both are derived from the slogans of the propagandists of one side or the other: The Jews are fighting for survival and the Arabs are fighting for freedom. Both arguments are simplistic half truths. The real truth is that the people want only to be left in peace on their own little patches of the planet to do what they will do. It's not really all that hard to understand.

[mur]

This is the bare-bones truth and the obvious solution.


And so the violence continues and the blood flows

[Snow Crash]

No...however I wouldn't venture to stop a train going 90mph by jumping in front of it....and forcing women and children to do the same.

You're implying that all Palestinian civillians are being used as human shields. I'd love for you to back that up.


You are condoning violence, and the senseless death of innocents.

Amusing. Where did I say that?

Oh! And your idea of "don't challenge Israel, let them do what they want" is actually condoning the slaughter of civillians. Once again, I shall ask you if you really understand what Zionism is about, but I suspect that you will conveniently ignore this question.


How much more blood will it take for you to realize that Israel cannot be defeated militarily.

Ahhh, I was wondering when this would start. Selectively ignoring an opponents words in order not to be seen to be reaching any common ground. Why is it a lot of right wing types do this?


Non violence is the only course that has a chance.

Yes, and you still haven't told us how, in your expert opinion, this would come about. So either you don't know, and thus are just spouting shit to try and look enlightened, or you genuinely believe that the Palestinians have no cause for complaint, and should just accept what is happening to them, and basically should just die.

You're a Christian right?

[GeneralStriker]

Non violence is the only course that has a chance. Yes, and you still haven't told us how, in your expert opinion, this would come about. So either you don't know, and thus are just spouting shit to try and look enlightened, or you genuinely believe that the Palestinians have no cause for complaint, and should just accept what is happening to them, and basically should just die.

You're a Christian right? Score one for the Snowman. Mur out for the count.

[Snow Crash]

Hey look! I found some more Hamas propaganda!

joHYt-G6e9E

TGGQhQEBOGE&feature=related

QWQxLESAaQQ&feature=related

[mur]

You're implying that all Palestinian civillians are being used as human shields. I'd love for you to back that up.

I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying that countless innocence bloodletting is senseless.




Amusing. Where did I say that?


By justifying violence




Oh! And your idea of "don't challenge Israel, let them do what they want" is actually condoning the slaughter of civillians. Once again, I shall ask you if you really understand what Zionism is about, but I suspect that you will conveniently ignore this question.

I never said don't challenge, I said don't challegne with violence!




Ahhh, I was wondering when this would start. Selectively ignoring an opponents words in order not to be seen to be reaching any common ground. Why is it a lot of right wing types do this?

It is far too easy to answer violence with violence.

It is more difficult to answer words with violence.




Yes, and you still haven't told us how, in your expert opinion, this would come about. So either you don't know, and thus are just spouting shit to try and look enlightened, or you genuinely believe that the Palestinians have no cause for complaint, and should just accept what is happening to them, and basically should just die.

You're a Christian right?


Don't do what I say...go fight them if you believe that violence is the only answer.

And that last paragraph sure as shit seems to say that you condone whatever violence you deem necessary.

[mur]

Score one for the Snowman. Mur out for the count.


Hardly...violence can never triumph over non violence when the cause is just

[mur]

Hey look! I found some more Hamas propaganda!

joHYt-G6e9E

TGGQhQEBOGE&feature=related

QWQxLESAaQQ&feature=related


More of the same old tired rhetoric that has gotten thousands killed.

I can post youtubes also....but i won't because you and those like you can only be satisfied by blood....just as long as it isn't your own

[GeneralStriker]

you can only be satisfied by blood....just as long as it isn't your own wow! this is getting downright serious now. the Snowman morphs into a vampire. well i never... oh my!

[mur]

Yes, and you still haven't told us how, in your expert opinion, this would come about. So either you don't know, and thus are just spouting shit to try and look enlightened, or you genuinely believe that the Palestinians have no cause for complaint, and should just accept what is happening to them, and basically should just die.

You're a Christian right?


gZLvSnr6s50

[GeneralStriker]

i'm sure you're a great fan of MLK. although he hated mobs...

[Snow Crash]

I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying that countless innocence bloodletting is senseless.

Ohhh! My bad. You mean Hamas is now shooting at Palestinians, right?


By justifying violence

So you don't actually have anything by me saying that, I take it?


I never said don't challenge, I said don't challegne with violence!

So again, how do you do that when Israel blatantly does not want to talk?


It is far too easy to answer violence with violence.

It is more difficult to answer words with violence.

Hmmm. I wonder what the ghosts of Tom Hundall and Rachel Corrie would make of that.


Don't do what I say...go fight them if you believe that violence is the only answer.

And that last paragraph sure as shit seems to say that you condone whatever violence you deem necessary.

I am still waiting for you to point out where it was I said I feel violence is the only answer. I strongly suspect that you cannot do so, as you've now reached the point where you must fling about accusations and smears.

Oh, and in partcular, could you please demonstrate how that last paragraph seems sure as shit that I condone violence?

And are you a Christian, btw?

[mur]

wow! this is getting downright serious now. the Snowman morphs into a vampire. well i never... oh my!


You condone violence as well...you should be ashamed

[GeneralStriker]

yeah well- i'm a follower of General Washington, what can i say? sometimes freedom from occupation requires a bit of activism.

[mur]

i'm sure you're a great fan of MLK. although he hated mobs...


Yeah...maybe they should have gotten some guns, and rocket gerandes...

Or become suicide bombers


That would have worked

[GeneralStriker]

Yeah...maybe they should have gotten some guns, and rocket gerandes...

Or become suicide bombers


That would have worked please don't confuse tactics with causes. what worked for MLK did not work for Washington. yet both causes were just.

[Snow Crash]

More of the same old tired rhetoric that has gotten thousands killed.

Really? How so?

No wait, don't bother answering, because I can guarantee, judging by the speed of your response, that you didn't bother watching those vids.

That's a nasty habit Mur. You do understand how illogical it is to comment on something without watching it, right?

But hey, why would you bother watching? It's obviously just Hamas propaganda made by 'Self Hating Jews', right?


I can post youtubes also....but i won't because you and those like you can only be satisfied by blood....just as long as it isn't your own

Awww dammit... I'm sorry Mur. I didn't realise you'd get so bent out of shape over this topic. I did tell ya though, if you didn't want to get into it, nobody was forcing you to...

Oh, and please, drop the "OMG SNOW IS A WARHAWK" thing. It's laughable. Or are you saying that for your benefit rather than mine?

[GeneralStriker]

chalk this jew up as a self hater.

[mur]

Ohhh! My bad. You mean Hamas is now shooting at Palestinians, right?

Suicide by cop in the hopes of affecting world opinion.

Serious miscalculation, just as it was a serious miscalculation to condone suicide bombing




So you don't actually have anything by me saying that, I take it?


Sure I do...I quoted it in the MLK video reply



So again, how do you do that when Israel blatantly does not want to talk?


The same way MLK did, the same way Ghandi did, the same way Mandela did






I am still waiting for you to point out where it was I said I feel violence is the only answer. I strongly suspect that you cannot do so, as you've now reached the point where you must fling about accusations and smears.

Because you are clearly rejecting non-violence




Oh, and in partcular, could you please demonstrate how that last paragraph seems sure as shit that I condone violence?

And are you a Christian, btw?

I am a Christian, but not as you apparently understand Christians to be.
Stereotype if you want, I don't care.

I'm a member of the Society of Friends...look it up.


Again you condone violence by not rejecting it.

Reject violence unequivocally for the sake of peace in the region and I'll take it back

[GeneralStriker]

"OMG SNOW IS A WARHAWK" thing.he didn't say that. he said 'vampire.' let's keep it straight.
you can only be satisfied by blood....just as long as it isn't your own

[mur]

yeah well- i'm a follower of General Washington, what can i say? sometimes freedom from occupation requires a bit of activism.

So go fight...I'm not stopping you

[GeneralStriker]

i'm fighting my battle right here.

[mur]

please don't confuse tactics with causes. what worked for MLK did not work for Washington. yet both causes were just.

The Palestinians cause is just, but so to is Israels right to exist.

I suspect you both deny Israels right to exist

[GeneralStriker]

I suspect you both deny Israels right to exist i suspect you're wrong. Israel does exist and has a right to exist- within its legal borders.

[mur]

Really? How so?

No wait, don't bother answering, because I can guarantee, judging by the speed of your response, that you didn't bother watching those vids.

That's a nasty habit Mur. You do understand how illogical it is to comment on something without watching it, right?

But hey, why would you bother watching? It's obviously just Hamas propaganda made by 'Self Hating Jews', right?



Awww dammit... I'm sorry Mur. I didn't realise you'd get so bent out of shape over this topic. I did tell ya though, if you didn't want to get into it, nobody was forcing you to...

Oh, and please, drop the "OMG SNOW IS A WARHAWK" thing. It's laughable. Or are you saying that for your benefit rather than mine?


Again...why would I watch something offers nothing but finger pointing and has failed for 40 plus years.
These types of videos are part of the fucking problem....not the solution.

You don't want peace, you want revenge, because that is what these types of vids call out for.

Be my guest, go fight.

But I hope you won't because there has been enough senseless death.

Hopefully...one day soon, the region will tire of blood.

But neither side is interested in peace right now

[mur]

i'm fighting my battle right here.

Me too...I can participate non-violently by condemning violence.

But you justify violence

[mur]

he didn't say that. he said 'vampire.' let's keep it straight.


you can only be satisfied by blood....just as long as it isn't your own

This was harsh...I apologize

[egg]

The point I was making about Arafat was that he didn't care about Palestinians. Neither does most muslim governments. They are just using them to bleed Isreal dry. Isreal didn't break the last couple of deals, Hamas did. Iran and Syria will not rest until Isreal is utterly destroyed(their own words). Yet Isreal is still willing to bargin in good faith.

Absolutely true. Jordan was no friend to the Palestinians (I mean Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, etc). Listen, this is all nonsense talk. When the last Jew dies in the middle east then there will be peace. Everything else is either anger or wishful thinking. Both sides have too much invested in their fear, anger and hatred.

Edit to add - I didn't address your last sentence. It's the current Iranian government, to be precise, not Iran. When Israel first came into being, Iran fully supported them.

[Snow Crash]

Suicide by cop in the hopes of affecting world opinion.

Serious miscalculation, just as it was a serious miscalculation to condone suicide bombing

I see! So having chemical weapons dropped on you is suicide by cop now? Having your house bulldosed with you inside it is suicide by cop now? Having your neighbourhoods shelled by tank columns is suicide by cop now?


Sure I do...I quoted it in the MLK video reply

You quoted me making a couple of conclusions. That is not me stating what you are accusing me of stating.

Logic Fail.


The same way MLK did, the same way Ghandi did, the same way Mandela did

Cop-out. Please tell me exactly. You say you know what the 'reality' is (though interestingly enough, you avoided telling what that actually is), so it should not be difficult for you to lay down a basic blueprint.


Hmmm. I wonder what the ghosts of Tom Hundall and Rachel Corrie would make of that.

They would probably be in support of it, but I also suspect they would want to hear about your grand plans. It's all very good playing Ghandi, but you need something to back up the big speeches. So far all I've managed to squeeze out of you effectively amounts to "The Palestinians should STFU and take it up the arse from Israel".


Because you are clearly rejecting non-violence

Indeed! So clearly, in fact, that you seem incapable of quoting where I rejected it...


I am a Christian, but not as you apparently understand Christians to be.
Stereotype if you want, I don't care.

Ouch... a bit defensive there. I am just curious, that's all. There seem to be a lot of Christians who think Jews are God's CHosen.

Which would then lead one to ask them if they ever think that they fucked up by not being Jewish...


Again you condone violence by not rejecting it.

Reject violence unequivocally for the sake of peace in the region and I'll take it back

Ah shit... I seem to have mislead you unintentionally. Sorry about that. I should have demonstrated how utterly unaffected I am by your accusations of bloodlust, as they are obviously a hollow tactic designed to discredit an opponent.

[Snow Crash]

he didn't say that. he said 'vampire.' let's keep it straight.

Ooops. My bad...

[GeneralStriker]

yummy! just love that blood!

[Snow Crash]

Again...why would I watch something offers nothing but finger pointing and has failed for 40 plus years.
These types of videos are part of the fucking problem....not the solution.

They are inconvenient to Israeli apologists because they demonstrate that inconvenient little truth you guys don't seem to want to admit.

Lean close to the computer Mur, this is a secret, and I don't want those Christian Republican types to overhear us...

Ready? Ok, here it is...

Jew does not = Zionist.


You don't want peace, you want revenge, because that is what these types of vids call out for.

And there, ladies and gents, is the proof. Mur didn't watch the vids, he ignored them and decided to denounce them instead. If he had watched the vids, then he wouldn't have been able to make that statement. Provided he was being honest, of course...


Be my guest, go fight.

But I hope you won't because there has been enough senseless death.

One can do a lot more with a computer these days than an AK47. If you understood a single thing about media, you would know this.

[egg]

Jew does not = Zionist.


Absolutely true. So, if they kill all the Zionist Israelis, what do you think they'll do with the regular old Israeli Jews?

[Snow Crash]

When the last Jew dies in the middle east then there will be peace.

Jews seem to live fine in Iraq and Iran.

Don't confuse all Jews as Zionists.

[Snow Crash]

Absolutely true. So, if they kill all the Zionist Israelis, what do you think they'll do with the regular old Israeli Jews?

Well to be honest, things have gotten to bad now that nothing short of a full blown UN army would do to keep the peace if the Zionists packed up and left for Europe or North America.

I think you're scenario is wayward though. And also, you need to bear in mind not every Israeli is a foaming mouthed religious fundie with a license to kill. Israelis who speak out against the occupation in their own country are often chased down and hounded by the Government and Military. I am often suprised that B'Tselem hasn't been declared a qing of Hamas by some of the Likudniks.

[GeneralStriker]

So, if they kill all the Zionist Israelis, what do you think they'll do with the regular old Israeli Jews? breakfast sausage? at least they're kosher.

[Snow Crash]

breakfast sausage? at least they're kosher.

I've actually had halal sausages. Not bad.

[GeneralStriker]

see?

[egg]

Jews seem to live fine in Iraq and Iran.

Don't confuse all Jews as Zionists.

No, I am not. AND, I totally agree with you. The creation of Israel changed everything and Jews were forced out of much of the Middle East. If necessary, I will find some sites to back me up. That's the truth, though. The English creation of Israel changed many things.
Back to my point, I want you to think about this seriously. Somehow, the Palestinians and/or the Syrians, Jordanians (throw in any combination of Middle East/Arab/Muslim countries) defeat Israel and kill all the Zionists. What do you think they're going to do with the Israeli Jews? You watch these videos, there are plenty of them showing what many of these people think of Jews. NOT Zionists, Jews.
There are two ways out of the Middle East conflict. The Jews (YES, Jews) leave. All of them. Or, they're all killed.
I guess if all the Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East and Northern-Arab Africa were killed that would work, too (highly unlikely).

[GeneralStriker]

There are two ways out of the Middle East conflict. The Jews (YES, Jews) leave. All of them. Or, they're all killed.jesus- talk about pessimism! what about door number three? Two States.

[egg]

And also, you need to bear in mind not every Israeli is a foaming mouthed religious fundie with a license to kill.


I think the majority of Israelis are NOT foaming religious fundies. As with most middle easterners I have met (to really generalize), they are either complete sweethearts or completely annoying. Most Israelis I have met are secular. They are all forced into the army at a young age. Most of them (again, that I have met) truly regret anything they may have done while in the army.

[egg]

jesus- talk about pessimism! what about door number three? Two States.

I used to think that was a solution. I don't believe in people as much as you do. We're pretty fucking robotic and the type of programming these people(s) have gone through is pretty intense.
On an ideological level, I am all for a two state solution.

[GeneralStriker]

Most of them (again, that I have met) truly regret anything they may have done while in the army. and there is the quick of hope in the heart of the beast.

[GeneralStriker]

I used to think that was a solution. I don't believe in people as much as you do. We're pretty fucking robotic and the type of programming these people(s) have gone through is pretty intense.
On an ideological level, I am all for a two state solution.
christ man. you make it sound as bad as me and skunk. i may have to rethink this two state shit now.

[Snow Crash]

No, I am not. AND, I totally agree with you. The creation of Israel changed everything and Jews were forced out of much of the Middle East. If necessary, I will find some sites to back me up. That's the truth, though. The English creation of Israel changed many things.
Back to my point, I want you to think about this seriously. Somehow, the Palestinians and/or the Syrians, Jordanians (throw in any combination of Middle East/Arab/Muslim countries) defeat Israel and kill all the Zionists. What do you think they're going to do with the Israeli Jews? You watch these videos, there are plenty of them showing what many of these people think of Jews. NOT Zionists, Jews.
There are two ways out of the Middle East conflict. The Jews (YES, Jews) leave. All of them. Or, they're all killed.
I guess if all the Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East and Northern-Arab Africa were killed that would work, too (highly unlikely).

Well unfortunately Egg I think things have been allowed to fester for so goddamn long now, the Israeli Jews would be in danger, hence why I would go and park the UN in there. The Israeli Jews lived there just fine with their Muslim and Christian neighbours until Zionism started shit stirring. If the Zionists got taken out somehow, then I'd like to see Hamas and Fatah dismanteled militarily, and any military capabilities transferred to the Palestinian Authority. I'd like to see a De-Militarized Zone along the southern border of Lebanon, policed again by the UN, in order to keep Hezbollah from getting any cute ideas. The security barrier should be dismanteled, as well as the settlements built post-67.

But that is rather irrelevant, because I don't believe I agree with your assessment that there are only two ways out of this. I personally believe the best chance for peace will come from within Israel.

[mur]

I see! So having chemical weapons dropped on you is suicide by cop now? Having your house bulldosed with you inside it is suicide by cop now? Having your neighbourhoods shelled by tank columns is suicide by cop now?

Tit for tat , eye for eye, and blood for blood.

It's got to stop someday....but your words above are not the words of someone who wants peace, they are the words of revenge




You quoted me making a couple of conclusions. That is not me stating what you are accusing me of stating.

Logic Fail.

It seemed clear to me, but I'll let you have the last word, because I have no desire to continue down this path since I think we clearly understand each others position at this point.

You want revenge and I want peace. For you there can't be peace with out revenge....correct?

I'm thinking this is the view of Hamas as well, and a strong reason why I believe the region ends up being nuked by both sides.




Cop-out. Please tell me exactly. You say you know what the 'reality' is (though interestingly enough, you avoided telling what that actually is), so it should not be difficult for you to lay down a basic blueprint.


Peaceful Demonstrations...no guns.

Clear enough?




They would probably be in support of it, but I also suspect they would want to hear about your grand plans. It's all very good playing Ghandi, but you need something to back up the big speeches. So far all I've managed to squeeze out of you effectively amounts to "The Palestinians should STFU and take it up the arse from Israel".


Jesus, are there no men or women of peace at all in all of Palestine?

They would not have been killed by Hamas or anything like that ....right?

Yes, that was a cheap shot...sorry

I can't do it for them, and I can't be the only one in the history of the world to suggest non violence.

They have to have the conviction that non violence is the right thing, some outsider can't sell them that...they have to sell it to themselves.

Eventually, hopefully all parties tire of blood




Indeed! So clearly, in fact, that you seem incapable of quoting where I rejected it...

You're not embracing it...are you?

There is no middle ground on this issue. It's the only way it works.

Violence must be rejected, no matter what happens.

When the other side attacks and you, the weaker side, does not retaliate....YOU WIN

This is how hearts and minds are one. Not with the gun




Ouch... a bit defensive there. I am just curious, that's all. There seem to be a lot of Christians who think Jews are God's CHosen.

Which would then lead one to ask them if they ever think that they fucked up by not being Jewish...

There is no such thing as hell, but hell on Earth, everyone is chosen, everyone is saved in the end




Ah shit... I seem to have mislead you unintentionally. Sorry about that. I should have demonstrated how utterly unaffected I am by your accusations of bloodlust, as they are obviously a hollow tactic designed to discredit an opponent.


Look...I'm just trying to make a point...you're not my enemy, neither is BE.

I apologize if I offended you, it isn't personal.

I'm just tired of both sides not taking any responsibility for their actions.

They are both to blame and somehow they have to forgive each other, or there will be more blood and the place is going to be nuked in the end....and nobody will have what they wanted and both will share in the blame.

Even then, the figure pointing will probably continue.

Those are my last worlds on the subject...you win

[GeneralStriker]

everyone is chosen, everyone is saved in the endby whom? jesus?

[egg]

The Israeli Jews lived there just fine with their Muslim and Christian neighbours until Zionism started shit stirring.

I agree that before Israel was created, there wasn't much of a problem for the Jews living in the Middle East. Some parts of the Middle East, the Jews loved living in and their neighbors were cool with them. Others, not so much but they had too small a voice. However, it wasn't when Zionism started shit stirring but when Israel was created that the Jews in the Middle East had trouble living with their neighbors. Zionism (the new political form) has made everything worse, I agree. However, as soon as Israel was created their was a problem in the Middle East.


But that is rather irrelevant, because I don't believe I agree with your assessment that there are only two ways out of this. I personally believe the best chance for peace will come from within Israel.

As I mentioned, over the last decade Israel has gone off the deep end. I wholeheartedly believe that decade before Israel was the state the strived for peace out of the two groups (they were not perfect by any means) but the Palestinians lead by Arafat destroyed any chance. They were given 99% of what they wanted in a peace treaty (aside from the Israeli built aqueducts ) and wouldn't take the bargain. There were far more suicide bombers back then. It was, at the very least, a monthly occurrence (research the Hashashin - the were the Persian equivalent in many ways of the Knights Templar - they the cultural roots of suicide bombers).
I believe Netanyahu is far too right wing. There should be no more settlements built. He will exacerbate the problems (to put it lightly). If you believe the peace offer must come from Israel (I'll go along with that) you must have someone(s) in power on the Palestinian side who is a peace receiver. Who is there? No one, as far as I can see.
This dance is not meant to end.

[egg]

Look...I'm just trying to make a point...you're not my enemy, neither is BE.

I apologize if I offended you, it isn't personal.

I'm just tired of both sides not taking any responsibility for their actions.

They are both to blame and somehow they have to forgive each other, or there will be more blood and the place is going to be nuked in the end....and nobody will have what they wanted and both will share in the blame.

Even then, the figure pointing will probably continue.

Those are my last worlds on the subject...you win

Mur, I am with you.

[egg]

christ man. you make it sound as bad as me and skunk.

Ha!!! probably worse. You guys are small time in comparison.

[mur]

by whom? jesus?

I'm done on the conflict, but I'll answer this important question

WE are all part of God and we all return, whether we like it or not...there is no choice in the matter.

If you want, you can believe that Hitler saves you.

Saved is a bad way to describe...forgiveness.

Everyone is forgiven...Hilter etc.

Some will be upset momentarily when they realize they could have broken the rules, or done what ever they wanted....many supposed Christians will be pissed, until they realize that, this is what love is all about.

[GeneralStriker]

I wholeheartedly believe that decade before Israel was the state the strived for peace out of the two groups This is not true, Eggman. Israeli history has been revised to gloss over the pogroms, expulsions and theft of Arab lands and towns at the hands of Zionist fanatics. The Palestinian refugees however remember it well. And then the Six Day War resulted in the wholesale illegal annexation of Gaza and the West Bank exponentially worsening the problem. I say this not as an enemy of Jews or of Judaism but as a fair minded Jew myself with a hundred relatives living in Israel- many of whom arrived there with the smokes of the ovens still rising off their skinny asses. But truth is truth and justice is justice. The State of Israel is a legal state and the Palestinians have indeed been victimized by its very existence. Justice now requires that they also have a state to call home. Nothing short of that will suffice to end this shitfest.

[Snow Crash]

Tit for tat , eye for eye, and blood for blood.

It's got to stop someday....but your words above are not the words of someone who wants peace, they are the words of revenge

How are they words of revenge? Is it not right to be outraged by white phosphorus being used on civillians, for example?

Have you ever SEEN what white phos does to people Mur? If you have seen pictures of people who have been hit by white phos, then in all likelihood, you can at least recall one from memory right now. If you have an ounce of humanity in you, then you will know exactly why I am PISSED about the shit being used on civillians. I want those responsible to face war crimes charges. And in case you haven't figured it out yet, the kind of bastard that orders/authorizes the use of chemical incendiaries on civillians is EXACTLY the kind of bastard that stands in the way of peace.


It seemed clear to me, but I'll let you have the last word, because I have no desire to continue down this path since I think we clearly understand each others position at this point.

You want revenge and I want peace. For you there can't be peace with out revenge....correct?

I'm thinking this is the view of Hamas as well, and a strong reason why I believe the region ends up being nuked by both sides.

Inccorrect, and further proof that you are seeing what you want to see.


Peaceful Demonstrations...no guns.

Clear enough?

Been tried. Doesn't work. Again, I wonder what the ghosts of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hundall would make of that. Again, if you knew anything about Zionism, you would know WHY it would never work.


Jesus, are there no men or women of peace at all in all of Palestine?

They would not have been killed by Hamas or anything like that ....right?

Yes, that was a cheap shot...sorry

I can't do it for them, and I can't be the only one in the history of the world to suggest non violence.

They have to have the conviction that non violence is the right thing, some outsider can't sell them that...they have to sell it to themselves.

Eventually, hopefully all parties tire of blood

So clearly you HAVE in fact only done about twenty minutes research on this matter. There have been numerous times when people on both sides have worked for peace, and have wound up ignored, messed about, or murdered.


You're not embracing it...are you?

There is no middle ground on this issue. It's the only way it works.

Violence must be rejected, no matter what happens.

When the other side attacks and you, the weaker side, does not retaliate....YOU WIN

This is how hearts and minds are one. Not with the gun

No matter what happens eh... so, when all the Palestinians have been forced from their lands, have been deported from Palestine or shoved into ghettos in which they starve and don't have fuel, you believe they would have won?

Shit, I'd hate to see you version of losing...


There is no such thing as hell, but hell on Earth, everyone is chosen, everyone is saved in the end

That's a matter of opinion.


Look...I'm just trying to make a point...you're not my enemy, neither is BE.

I apologize if I offended you, it isn't personal.

It's cool.


I'm just tired of both sides not taking any responsibility for their actions.

And there is the key word. Responsibility.


They are both to blame and somehow they have to forgive each other, or there will be more blood and the place is going to be nuked in the end....and nobody will have what they wanted and both will share in the blame.

Even then, the figure pointing will probably continue.

Well, you have to bear in mind only one side has nukes. I doubt even the IDF are so pigheaded as to use nuclear weapons in the Holy Land.


Those are my last worlds on the subject...you win

Thanks for playing.

[GeneralStriker]

Thanks for playing. ...and come again. have a good day.

[egg]

This is not true, Eggman. Israeli history has been revised to gloss over the pogroms, expulsions and theft of Arab lands and towns at the hands of Zionist fanatics. The Palestinian refugees however remember it well. And then the Six Day War resulted in the wholesale illegal annexation of Gaza and the West Bank exponentially worsening the problem. I say this not as an enemy of Jews or of Judaism but as a fair minded Jew myself with a hundred relatives living in Israel- many of whom arrived there with the smokes of the ovens still rising off their skinny asses. But truth is truth and justice is justice. The State of Israel is a legal state and the Palestinians have indeed been victimized by its very existence. Justice now requires that they also have a state to call home. Nothing short of that will suffice to end this shitfest.

Well, then, even more reason to believe what I believe. People from ancient cultures have loooooonnngggg memories and dreams of retribution.

[GeneralStriker]

Ha!!! probably worse. You guys are small time in comparison. i resent that remark.

[egg]

i resent that remark.

:D I'm sorry. You're just two small voices on the intertubez. When one of you gets an F-16 and the other straps a bomb on their chest, we can talk.

[GeneralStriker]

Well, then, even more reason to believe what I believe. People from ancient cultures have loooooonnngggg memories and dreams of retribution.
oh for crissakes. will you stop that shit or do i have to come out there and whup you upside the head with a willow stick?

[egg]

oh for crissakes. will you stop that shit or do i have to come out there and whup you upside the head with a willow stick?

You can threaten to beat me with tree branches, you can then beat me with said tree branch, but I will always be pessimistic on these issues. :jedi:

[GeneralStriker]

yeah well i'll fix your sorry ass when i get my F16.

[egg]

yeah well i'll fix your sorry ass when i get my F16.

See what I mean. :D

[Snow Crash]

See what I mean. :D

The choice of an F16 is no coincidence.

[GeneralStriker]

The last word on the subject may belong, strangely enough, to the true American Conservatives. While guys like Mur pretend to be objective on the Palestine issue the truth is that they wear Christian/ Zionist blinders and don't really care a whit about the truth. Can America ever be an honest broker? Will they ever have the courage to stand up to AIPAC? I offer this glimmer of hope (http://www.hoaxmasters.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79) that they might.
The realist argument about Israel—which can be traced from President Truman’s secretary of state George Marshall through Kennedy and Johnson aide George Ball to Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer—now appears to have the patronage of American’s most respected military commander. The pretense that America’s and Israel’s interests in the Middle East coincide completely is being challenged at the highest level and may never recover.