View Full Version : A nail that may of been in Christs wrist found in dig.
anarch
03-02-2010, 04:14 AM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/03/02/the-holy-nail-115875-22079565/
Knights Templar: It's relic from crucifixion
A nail from the time of Christ's crucifixion which was hidden by the same knights who featured in The Da Vinci Code has been found in a dig.
The four-inch Roman relic, stored in an ornate box, was uncovered by archaeologists working at a fort thought to have been a former Knights Templar stronghold.
It was buried with three skeletons and three swords, including one with the religious order's cross on its blade, on the tiny island of Ilheu de Pontinha, off Madeira.
The iron nail is of the type used in thousands of crucifixions - but it is special. Archaeologist Bryn Walters said: "It dates from the 1st to 2nd centuries. You'd expect the surface to be pitted and rough after so long. But this was smooth.
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"It looks like it had been handled by a lot of people over a long period of time and the acid from their hands have given it a peculiar finish."
Yesterday Christopher Macklin of the Knights Templar of Britannia described last summer's find as "momentous".
He said evidence the nail had been handled a lot "indicates it was of great interest to many people". He believes the original Knights Templar thought it was a genuine artefact from Christ's crucifixion.
They occupied Jerusalem during the Crusades a thousand years after Christ, and claimed to be guardians of the Holy Grail, the cross and other relics. The Da Vinci Code portrays them as a modern secret society.
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 04:20 AM
Interesting.......
Too bad it's virtually impossible to substantiate the claims.
pack3tg0st
03-02-2010, 04:28 AM
Interesting.......
Too bad it's virtually impossible to substantiate the claims.
Completely impossible.
They're still working on if this christ figure even existed.
There's a strong possibility that he's a mish mashing of multiple messiah figures at the time...
The time jesus was around was completely rife with messiahs...
it was the 'thing' to do.
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 04:43 AM
Completely impossible.
They're still working on if this christ figure even existed.
There's a strong possibility that he's a mish mashing of multiple messiah figures at the time...
The time jesus was around was completely rife with messiahs...
it was the 'thing' to do.
I lean towards a mish mash of reality and myth to the point short of time travel we'll never know for sure.
The time jesus was around was completely rife with messiahs...
Brian?
Your a very naughty boy.
Interesting, but thats about it. No way of ever confirming it one way or another. If it was a nail from christs crucifixion i would have thought that the Knights wouldnt let anyone touch it. the fact that its been handled by "many" people would lead me to believe it isnt rather than the other way round.
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 05:25 AM
Brian?
Your a very naughty boy.
Interesting, but thats about it. No way of ever confirming it one way or another. If it was a nail from christs crucifixion i would have thought that the Knights wouldnt let anyone touch it. the fact that its been handled by "many" people would lead me to believe it isnt rather than the other way round.
There was a lot of Templars. :D
There was a lot of Templars. :D
obviously, and all with a "nail handling fetish".
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 07:20 AM
obviously, and all with a "nail handling fetish".
Don't most people like to "touch" bits of history they are interested in?
Don't most people like to "touch" bits of history they are interested in?
most people maybe, but the Templars were charged with protecting those xtian icons not fiddling with them. :)
and from all reports they took their task pretty seriously, so i wonder why they would they allow them to be "fiddled" with.
it was just a thought, i found it odd that the guy in the article thought that because they had been touched a lot that it must mean that it was something very valuable, personally i would have thought the opposite.
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 07:34 AM
most people maybe, but the Templars were charged with protecting those xtian icons not fiddling with them. :)
and from all reports they took their task pretty seriously, so i wonder why they would they allow them to be "fiddled" with.
it was just a thought, i found it odd that the guy in the article thought that because they had been touched a lot that it must mean that it was something very valuable, personally i would have thought the opposite.
Most likely was thought to bestow some sort of benefit. Look at the legends of the holy grail.
MrPenny
03-02-2010, 08:23 AM
And maybe the owner of the "nail" just thought it was a handy tool for punching holes in leather and whatnot......kept it in his personal belongings and used it a lot.
And maybe the owner of the "nail" just thought it was a handy tool for punching holes in leather and whatnot......kept it in his personal belongings and used it a lot.
that makes more sense for it having been touched a lot imo.
And maybe the owner of the "nail" just thought it was a handy tool for punching holes in leather and whatnot......kept it in his personal belongings and used it a lot.
The vary first Ronco leather punch. There should be 2 as they always double the offer.
The logic of use versus value will be discounted. Religion could use a bump so I would expect this to be spun up. But then, modern religion seem pretty well set with the current situation and plain old belief. Probably better to go what they got then introduce something new that science can work with.
Ducky
03-02-2010, 09:19 AM
There was some legend I remember hearing about concerning Gypsy folk.
paraphrasing:
When Christ was to be cruicified, the Romans went around to the blacksmiths to get materials for the crucifiction. Many heard the reason 'why' and declined their services. But a group of wandering gypsies didn't care either way and provided nails regardless.
Supposedly the reason behind all their nomadding (is that even a word? lol) was because they were cursed to keep moving lest the 'nail' or whatever it was... find them out.
MrPenny
03-02-2010, 09:21 AM
Interesting anecdote, but I don't picture the Romans having a need to "scrounge up" materials for anything.
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 09:23 AM
uncovered by archaeologists working at a fort thought to have been a former Knights Templar stronghold.
Its really hard to take these kinds of things seriously when the wording is vague and the assumptions are made so freely.
"thought to have been".
People try that crap on this board and we all know what happens.
MrPenny
03-02-2010, 09:25 AM
That was my first thought when reading the article. "Sure is a bunch of assumptions and leaps to conclusions in this thing..."
There was some legend I remember hearing about concerning Gypsy folk.
paraphrasing:
When Christ was to be cruicified, the Romans went around to the blacksmiths to get materials for the crucifiction. Many heard the reason 'why' and declined their services. But a group of wandering gypsies didn't care either way and provided nails regardless.
Supposedly the reason behind all their nomadding (is that even a word? lol) was because they were cursed to keep moving lest the 'nail' or whatever it was... find them out.
the other legend refers to a gypsy woman stealing one of the nails hence why christ was crucified with only 3 nails and why it was said that oncevery seven years a gypsy was allowed to steal anything they liked.
but like this latest find theres no evidence for any of it.
heres a link to an article on sacred-texts discussing the gypsy involvement. it covers both legends.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/roma/gft/gft021.htm
Ducky
03-02-2010, 09:33 AM
Its really hard to take these kinds of things seriously when the wording is vague and the assumptions are made so freely.
"thought to have been".
People try that crap on this board and we all know what happens.
Probably no worse than the crazy legend I just brought up lolol
Like the OP. <<<<< But an interesting story nonetheless; to which it's extremely hard to prove.
With so much handling of relics and the wears and tears of time, there'd be no DNA left. Even even if there was, what are the chances that it would be EXACTLY the blood of Christ? We don't have a base point with which to start with in the first place, as nobody has a sample of his blood to compare.
Documentation for the nail? None that could be verified.
Who knows if someone had the real deal at one time or another, and somebody else decided to slip in a substitute to make sure nothing happened to the original. And mabey the real nail got lost somewhere along the way?
All these 'what if's' ....
MrPenny
03-02-2010, 09:34 AM
Stop me if you've heard this one....
The kind person approaches Jesus on the cross, and Jesus begs him to ease his torment....so the stranger pulls the nail from his left hand.
Jesus flexes his arm and sighs..."aaaaahhh, much better..."
So the kind person pulls the nail from his right hand....
Jesus immediately starts flailing his arms....
"The feet......the feet...."
Ducky
03-02-2010, 09:35 AM
heres a link to an article on sacred-texts discussing the gypsy involvement. it covers both legends.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/roma/gft/gft021.htm
Cool. Checking it out now as we speak.
another interesting article that looks at a number of the different legends regarding the gypsies and christs crucifixion.
its in PDF form.
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/3295/1/V43N01_017.pdf
Gypsies..that explains it...
It was a scheme to get a 'get out of jail card'. The important part was making it big. By taking the body, it assured a future of importance in history and belief by billions.
The biggest sting.
interesting legends nonetheless.
i hadnt come across these variants previously.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 09:44 AM
that makes more sense for it having been touched a lot imo.The Messianists had a peculiar belief in an arcane chain of personal redemption. Icons were thought to be vectors of connectivity to the Spiritus. It began with Saint Paul's principle of the 'laying on of hands.' So it wouldn't be surprising that anything established to have touched Christ would permit anyone to also touch Christ. Unused and untouched such an icon would become a useless sacrilege. There is sufficient evidence of the historical reality of Jesus in my opinion. He's referred to in roughly contemporaneous accounts by Josephus, the Gospel of Marc and the Talmud. And while I do feel that there has been a certain degree of conflation with other Judean rebels of the times it seems most probable that this particular rebel was the one mockingly referred to by the Romans as Rex Judea and executed for political, not religious, crimes.
Ducky
03-02-2010, 09:47 AM
From Mojo's first link:
gave the Manousch leave to steal once every seven years."' 1 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/roma/gft/gft021.htm#fn_8) The Lithuanian Gypsies say, likewise, that 'stealing has been permitted in their favour by the crucified Jesus, because the Gypsies, being present at the Crucifixion, stole one of the four nails. Hence when the hands had been nailed, there was but one nail left for the feet; and therefore God allowed them to steal, and it is not accounted a sin to them.' ('The Lithuanian Gypsies and their Language,' by Mieczyslaw Dowojno-Sylwestrowicz, in Gypsy Lore Journal, i. 1889, p. 253.)
I find it hard to believe that Christ would allot favortism with the Gypsies and allow them to steal at all.
Kind of contradicts his whole purpose. Then again the bible is full of these eh? lol He was sent to 'fufill the law', (Law of Moses? Commandments) not break it along the way to crucifiction.
Regardless of what we all believe, I still enjoy reading about myths and legends anyway :)
Don't those who write history often benefit from that writing.
Ducky
03-02-2010, 09:50 AM
The Messianists had a peculiar belief in an arcane chain of personal redemption. Icons were thought to be vectors of connectivity to the Spiritus. It began with Saint Paul's principle of the 'laying on of hands.' So it wouldn't be surprising that anything established to have touched Christ would permit anyone to also touch Christ. Unused and untouched such an icon would become a useless sacrilege. There is sufficient evidence of the historical reality of Jesus in my opinion. He's referred to in roughly contemporaneous accounts by Josephus, the Gospel of Marc and the Talmud. And while I do feel that there has been a certain degree of conflation with other Judean rebels of the times it seems most probable that this particular rebel was the one mockingly referred to by the Romans as Rex Judea and executed for political, not religious, crimes.
Would that follow along the same lines as many churches burying a portion of a saints body under the altar?
Tactilism and spirituality.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 09:50 AM
yep
I can here the gypsy business meeting talk.
This messiah thing is going to be big. How do we get in on it. Think, what can we do.
Well, there were only three nails, that's unusual. OK, nails. Now what...
Corruption and cons have been the mainstay of humans. Religion might even be the all time leader. Wonder what it took, in payment, to touch a relic. Bet it wasn't free.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:00 AM
Wonder what it took, in payment, to touch a relic. Bet it wasn't free. It never is. Indulgence is a way of life.
From Mojo's first link:
I find it hard to believe that Christ would allot favortism with the Gypsies and allow them to steal at all.
why do you find that hard to believe, he cursed the carpenter that made the cross.
not a very loving thing to do.
[QUOTE=mojo;354384]...he cursed the carpenter that made the cross./QUOTE]
But he was in the carpenter's union. some CT there may be.
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 10:09 AM
Probably no worse than the crazy legend I just brought up lolol
Like the OP. <<<<< But an interesting story nonetheless; to which it's extremely hard to prove.
With so much handling of relics and the wears and tears of time, there'd be no DNA left. Even even if there was, what are the chances that it would be EXACTLY the blood of Christ? We don't have a base point with which to start with in the first place, as nobody has a sample of his blood to compare.
Documentation for the nail? None that could be verified.
Who knows if someone had the real deal at one time or another, and somebody else decided to slip in a substitute to make sure nothing happened to the original. And mabey the real nail got lost somewhere along the way?
All these 'what if's' ....
It opens the door for speculation. I think the interesting part is how everyone's perspective adds unique layers to the myths.
Speaking of myths, I heard it said that the term mythology springs from the root words for mother (mater) and teach )logos). When you look at it that way it, mythology teaches the ways of the "mother".
[QUOTE=mojo;354384]...he cursed the carpenter that made the cross./QUOTE]
But he was in the carpenter's union. some CT there may be.
i dont think he was terribly impressed with the joins on his cross. and dont even get him started on the splinters.
Sandpaper arrived in the 3rd century.
Sandpaper arrived in the 3rd century.
and it was only used for woodworking in the 5th century after it crashed and burned as toilet paper.
http://homingpigeon.com/xfer/heypeter.jpg
Ducky
03-02-2010, 10:15 AM
why do you find that hard to believe, he cursed the carpenter that made the cross.
not a very loving thing to do.
lol according to the legends right?
Then again, would it be entirely out of his character and what he was 'capable of doing'. According to scripture, he 'cursed a fig tree' because it bore no fruit. Another example: He got pissed off at the money traders and went on the rampage because they set up shop in the temple.
If Jesus accepted his fate (crucifiction) (even asked that the 'cup' be taken from him and agonized greatly) then it follows that he would accept the carpenter that made the cross, or the ones that made the nails, or the thief on the cross, or hang out with prositutes, tax collectors, etc.
Why towards the end, would this all change? Who knows...
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:16 AM
early on tough love. the tradition continues unabated.
Why towards the end, would this all change?
A guess, getting nailed to a cross.
Why towards the end, would this all change? Who knows...
because its all made up.
http://homingpigeon.com/xfer/public/nail.jpg
From the very first Gypsy Ad Campaign...
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:19 AM
because its all made up.
Some is, some isn't- as in all conflations. The religious crap we can dismiss out of hand. But the bare bones of history still remain.
Ducky
03-02-2010, 10:20 AM
because its all made up.
It's a distinct possibility Mojo. I don't have the evidence either way.
Mithra, Horus, Krishna....Christ.
Same person cut from different cloths?
All I know is that I accept his teachings for a better life for me. We all follow our own paths right?
Anyone gonna go with he was an ET?
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 10:21 AM
Ok, it makes as much sense as any other theory.
All I know is that I accept his teachings...
How can you be sure they are his?
Couldn't that be much like the teachings of Harry Potter.
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 10:24 AM
Does anyone remember hearing about the epic search for the Holy Nail?
Ducky
03-02-2010, 10:25 AM
Some is, some isn't- as in all conflations. The religious crap we can dismiss out of hand. But the bare bones of history still remain.
Agreed.
And the more evidence we unearth, the more the pieces fall into place.
I liken scientists today as a somewhat 'Doubting Thomas' of the bible.
He demanded to see the nail marks in Christ's hands. Proof. Evidence.
Personally, I don't go by just 'blind faith' alone. "Faith without deeds is dead" I have a need to test the 'fruits' myself to make sure of things.
And if it means that I do my homework aside from the bible, then so be it.
I love learning new things everyday. Books, history channel, whatever..
Ducky
03-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Does anyone remember hearing about the epic search for the Holy Nail?
No... any immediate info on that Hazel? Links :)
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 10:27 AM
We could make some and then build them up to become legends for future Amkonoids to debunk.
Ducky
03-02-2010, 10:30 AM
Anyone gonna go with he was an ET?
I......could....
Was afraid I might get flamed for that one if I attempted it j/k :p
Interesting concept, and there's plenty of reference to what might be deemed ET's in the bible. Ezekiel, Book of Enoch, etc.
The Hindu texts talk about Vimina (what propels their flying *ahem* carpets/vehicles. What's the name of their books again...shit I forgot. I'll look that one up again when I get back from work.
MrPenny
03-02-2010, 10:35 AM
1. What was the soil composition in the archeological site? Apparently it isn't odd to find well preserved Roman artifacts of iron composition in some locations..
Ancient Iron Nails well preserved from Apparently Corrosive Soils (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v195/n4839/abs/195376b0.html)
2. The methods of manufacture, and the materials used in nail making did not change in any substantial way from the beginning of this century to roughly 1600 AD.
In the UK, early evidence of large scale nail making comes from Roman times 2000 years ago.
[snip]
It was not until around 1600 that the first machine for making nails appeared, but that tended really to automate much of the blacksmith's job.
The history of nail making. (http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/nailmaking.htm) For hundreds of years....a blacksmith, a forge, an anvil, a hammer, and a hot piece of iron.
3. What was the conditon of the other artifacts....specifically, the swords?
4. How the heck did they arrive at the conclusion that "It looks like it had been handled by a lot of people over a long period of time"? It looks like?
5. The entire article is wishful thinking.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:42 AM
5. The entire article is wishful thinking. 'informed speculation' maybe. one step below 'hypothesis.' but i didn't notice any wishing going on.
5. The entire article is wishful thinking.
Blasphemy
I occasionally have visions of St. Peter standing at the pearly gates next to me with a couple of printouts of jpgs.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:45 AM
We could make some and then build them up to become legends for future Amkonoids to debunk.
hahahah that'll keep em off the streets.
Hazelnut
03-02-2010, 10:47 AM
Unless we are really living in a mechanical, technological matrix while our bodies are being drained of their energy as our minds are tricked into believing we are truly living the lives we are dreaming.
boycotteverything
03-02-2010, 10:56 AM
well there's that...
Alessandra
03-02-2010, 11:38 AM
obviously, and all with a "nail handling fetish".
According to the Church, they had more fetishes too :lol:
Watcher-In-The-Shadows
03-02-2010, 07:59 PM
The Messianists had a peculiar belief in an arcane chain of personal redemption. Icons were thought to be vectors of connectivity to the Spiritus. It began with Saint Paul's principle of the 'laying on of hands.' So it wouldn't be surprising that anything established to have touched Christ would permit anyone to also touch Christ. Unused and untouched such an icon would become a useless sacrilege. There is sufficient evidence of the historical reality of Jesus in my opinion. He's referred to in roughly contemporaneous accounts by Josephus, the Gospel of Marc and the Talmud. And while I do feel that there has been a certain degree of conflation with other Judean rebels of the times it seems most probable that this particular rebel was the one mockingly referred to by the Romans as Rex Judea and executed for political, not religious, crimes.
The People's Popular Front or the Popular People's? :D
Kacen
03-29-2010, 01:56 PM
Considering that at the time Jesus was crucified, he was just one of numerous individuals the Romans considered criminals and were sentenced to the same fate, to say it's specifically from Jesus is a stretch. It can be from any one of the silly cultists the Romans put to death by crucifixion.
Bitchkoma
03-29-2010, 04:29 PM
the other legend refers to a gypsy woman stealing one of the nails hence why christ was crucified with only 3 nails and why it was said that oncevery seven years a gypsy was allowed to steal anything they liked.
That's a brilliant way to use religion to commit daylight robbery. Not as subtle as others but still rather ballsy.
skunk
03-29-2010, 08:29 PM
Considering that at the time Jesus was crucified, he was just one of numerous individuals the Romans considered criminals and were sentenced to the same fate, to say it's specifically from Jesus is a stretch. It can be from any one of the silly cultists the Romans put to death by crucifixion.
Yeah...The idea this particular nail was used in the crucifixion of jesus is beyond ridiculous, IMO.
Don't those who write history often benefit from that writing.
only all the time HP :)
The relevant scene to the thread OP starts around the 30 sec mark
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