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pack3tg0st
02-22-2010, 12:41 PM
Figured I'd post this here, we have a few guys around who are brilliant when it comes to this sort of stuff.

This is still a work in progress, I just don't know how quickly i'll be working on it.

From my blog:

(Disclaimer: As much as I hate trying to decipher legend and fact from the ancient stories in the bible, there are a few instances where it would appear that myth meets reality. This isn't to say that the bible as a religious text has any validity at all. Its just a suggestion that the oral traditions of the past were effected by real world events and people.

This post is not meant to be taken as any sort of proof of the bible's accuracy.)



Akhenaten (otherwise known as Amenhotep IV), Son of Amenhotep III, was a Pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty of Egypt. He was ruler for approximately 17 years, and is known as the Heretic King of Egypt.

Akhenaten was known as the first Monotheist. He abandoned the Egyptian pantheon of gods, in favor of sun worship (Aten), and is the father of the most famous Pharaoh Tutankhamun.

However, this pharaoh might be more special than people realize

There is evidence to suggest that Akhenaten may actually be the basis for the legend of Moses. But lets start at the very beginning:

According Historian Ahmed Osman, there was a powerful Israelite by the name of Yusef- Yuya (Joseph in the common tongue) that was a trusted advisor to both pharaohs Tuthmosis IV, and Amenhotep III (Thuthmosis IV was Amenhotep III's grandfather). In an effort to ensure the throne was passed to him, Amenhotep III married his very young sister (Sitamun). He later married Yusef-Yuya's daughter Tiye as well, as having a wife of age certainly carries with it some... benefits...

However, since Tiye was an Israelite, it was determined by the priesthood that any children from Amenhotep III and Tiye would never become part of the succession to the throne. In fact, when Amenhotep IV was born, it was the consensus at the time that he should be put to death, to avoid future problems with ascension.

Thusly, Amenhotep IV was spirited away from the palace, and was sent to be raised by Tiye's Israelite family.

After the passing of Amenhotep III, Amenhotep IV married his half sister Nefertiti (Sitamun's only child), and thus ascended the throne as Co-Regent.

Once he assumed the throne (albeit he only shared the throne), he rejected the Egyptian Pantheon of gods, and instead, sought to elevate the Sun-Disk (Aten) as an image-less, but monotheistic god. He took to shutting down the temples of Ra, thoroughly angering the Priests of Amun.

5 years into his reign, he took the drastic step of changing his name to Akhenaten to include the word 'Aten' in his name.

Here is where it starts to get fuzzy. It has always been a scientific 'guess' that Akhenaten died while on the throne after only 16 years of reign, putting him in his mid thirties when he died. However, there has also been speculation that that he didn't die, but was forced to abdicate his throne due to his heretical beliefs, and thus, went into exile all the way through his son's (Tutankhamun) reign.

The reason for the ambiguation is the fact that after Tutankhamen successor (Ay), the House of Ramses ascended the throne, where they then entered a campaign to eliminate the blight of heresy from the history books. They defaced monuments, dismantled temples, destroyed crypts and damaged burial chambers.

Theories about Akhenaten's exile (As opposed to death on the throne) have abound for years. And, until today, were all guess work.

As I was writing this, new scientific results are in from a tomb discovered in the valley of the kings nearly 100 years ago named K-55.

DNA studies show that one of the mummies interred in K-55 is indeed that of Tutankhamen's father Akhenaten. But the exciting part is the MRI results.

MRI testing indicates that Akhenaten did not die in his mid 30's on the throne, as originally postulated. Instead, it shows that he lived into his mid 60's. Giving us about 30 years of 'lost time' to contend with.

Which is in accordance with the theories that he was in exile in the deserts of Egypt with his followers for about 25 years.

This brings us to what prompted this post to begin with.

The Ark of the Covenant.

For centuries the Ark of the Covenant has eluded even the most diligent archaeologists. There have been many speculations as to where it's final resting place might be. My theory is that there might be a possibility that everyone is looking for the wrong thing.

The biblical description of the ark in Exodus 25 is as follows:

22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will speak with thee from above the ark-cover, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

23 And thou shalt make a table of acacia-wood: two cubits shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

24 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make thereto a crown of gold round about.

25 And thou shalt make unto it a border of a handbreadth round about, and thou shalt make a golden crown to the border thereof round about.

26 And thou shalt make for it four rings of gold, and put the rings in the four corners that are on the four feet thereof.

27 Close by the border shall the rings be, for places for the staves to bear the table.

Here is an artists rendition of a final product that dates to the 19th century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Ark_of_the_Covenant_19th-century.png

However, Moses was in exile when he received these instructions. I also highly doubt that a rag-tag group of slaves had the amount of gold needed to 'gold plate' a device such as this, even if they did possess the skill to do so.

I also feel its a mistake to look for a Semitic artifact, as opposed to a Egyptian artifact.

But now, lets work off the hypothesis that Akhenaten is indeed the basis for the legend of Moses. We would probably be looking at something with a more 'Egyptian' flare. But lets start by looking at artifacts from around the same time period.

This is a shrine to Anubis that was recovered from Tutankhamen's tomb:

http://www.royalexhibitions.com/KT%20photo%20anubis%20web.jpg

It shares many similar characteristics as the 'ark' description from Exodus. Items such as these would have been plentiful around the time period in question.

Now, its obvious that the Anubis statue doesn't quite fit what we're looking for. So lets remove that, and look at another image.

http://users.ucom.net/~vegan/images/isis.jpg

That, is Isis, an Egyptian goddess. Is it possible that the 'Ark' of the covenant is a recycled Shrine to the goddess Isis? It is an established practice to 'borrow' from other religions when coming up with religious symbology.

My hypothesis is either the Ark was physically borrowed from an Egyptian community, or, the author of the book of Exodus was aware of these mobile shrines, and based his description on existing religion iconography from Egypt.

However, all this may be moot. Without proper care, the Ark of the Covenant would be reduced to a pile of dirt and twisted metal by this point in time. It was made out of wood after all.

However, I can't help but wonder if we've been looking for the wrong artifact for centuries.


Sources:

http://www.dwij.org/forum/amarna/10_moses_akhenaten.htm

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=7&id=19943

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/amenhotep3.htm

http://www.egyptologyonline.com/

Lexion
02-22-2010, 12:46 PM
Good read.

Can't wait to see Mojo's take.

KIWI, too.

skunk
02-22-2010, 01:09 PM
From your op: http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=7&id=19943

At a press conference for international media figures held by the Supreme Council of Antiquities last Wednesday at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, I announced that important [archeological] discoveries had been made that shed more light on the dynasty of the golden pharaoh Tutankhamen. These discoveries marked the beginning of a new chapter in using modern techniques and advanced technology in the field of archeological discoveries.

For many years, Egyptian mummies remained silent, disclosing only a few of their secrets until modern science came and presented to us a new key to the secrets of the mummies, particularly those belonging to the same dynasty. These methods are represented in the deoxyribonucleic acid technique, known as DNA testing, and the CT-Scan. At long last, after a full comprehensive 18-month study of the mummy of King Tutankhamen that is preserved in his tomb in the Valley of the Kings in Luxor, and of other mummies believed to be from the same dynasty, we have set up a DNA laboratory at the basement of the Egyptian Museum and another at Cairo University’s Faculty of Medicine where two teams of distinguished scientists worked. Each team worked separately in its own laboratory away from the other, and both were assisted by German scientists who specialize in studying DNA.

At the press conference, I announced that the mummy in tomb KV55 is King Akhenaten who bewildered scientists and researchers either in their search for his mummy or in studying the conditions of his time. Akhenaten was the first to call for monotheism and sought to change the multiple religions in ancient Egypt. We also confirmed that Akhenaten was the father of King Tutankhamen and this confirmation came after earlier attempts that indicated that in KV55 was most probably the mummy of Akhenaten. But this contradicted studies that indicated that the mummy is of a 25-year old male, which made us think that it could in fact be the mummy of a king that we do not know much about i.e. Smenkhkare who has also baffled scientists. Was he the brother of Tutankhamen? Or was he actually the beautiful queen who perhaps was the co-regent of King Tut in his 17th year of rule and changed her name to Smenkhkare?

Therefore the problem lied in the assumption that the mummy was of a 25-year old male, whilst the studies we carried out with scientists using CT-Scanners showed that KV55 is the mummy of a 60-year old male. Moreover, the DNA showed that he is the son of King Amenhoteb III, and as we mentioned earlier, the father of King Tutankhamen. This discovery has revived historical facts and closed a gap that has been open since the discovery of the mummies of known or unknown kings.

The other significant discovery is that the study emphasized that KV55 belongs to a normal male who did not suffer any deformities and his body showed no signs of feminine traits. Some believed that King Akhenaten might have had feminine traits based on the statues and drawings that depicted him in this way. This was represented in his flabby abdomen and thighs and his feminine chest. It is our duty now to explain such artistic characteristics during Akhenaten's reign and we can find the answer in the Great Hymn to Aten, who was worshipped by Akhenaten, and whose power is depicted in an image that shows the disk of the sun with rays that end in human hands. The Great Hymn to Aten says “you are male and female...”

We now know where the monotheistic King Akhenaten lies.

torbjon
02-22-2010, 02:21 PM
I feel that "Cherubim" needs to be investigated more. The concept of a cute, cuddly Winged being seems to be a later addition. First scripture mention of these things is in Genesis, they were placed outside the way to Eden (along with a shining, flaming, rotating sword) as guardians, regulators, Locks to keep the flow of humans Out of the garden of Eden. They also seem to only function in pairs (groups, gangs) and not as single units.... there is no mention of wings or the ability of flight at this early stage.... rather they are big bad asses with a far out weapon that you Don't wanna mess with.

The Cherubim of the Ark of the Covenant might not be the ornate statues we've been lead to believe in, but rather simple locking mechanisms, or a pair of electrical components such as coils or spark gaps...

just a thought.

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 02:39 PM
The ark was nothing more than a box to keep the law in. Hell- there's one in every synagogue and temple in the diaspora.

torbjon
02-22-2010, 02:56 PM
The book of Hebrews lists items other than the word of god in the Ark, (manna, the staff / rod of Aaron) as does the Quran (artifacts from the house of Moses and Aaron). The Ark itself was / is alleged to have some rather interesting powers of its own, not least of which was the ability to chat with 'god'. There have doubtless been countless copies of the thing over the ages, but without the correct components in their proper proportions these other Arks don't seem to possess the pizazz that the original allegedly had.

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 03:11 PM
Well- the box itself has come to be a venerated icon much like the Kaaba that houses the holy Black Stone or that hideous Roman execution device known as the Cross. But I'd say that the respect is owed the contents as opposed to the container- despite the Indiana Jones schtick. To the remnants of the diaspora much more reverance is given to the Light that always accompanies any given ark- the Ner Tamid (Eternal Light) which represents the Spiritus (in Latin) Shekina (in Hebrew) Holy Ghost (in English) that subsumes the Law. I mentioned all this to Pack when he asked for my input in preparing his OP statement but I guess he chose to ignore it.

pack3tg0st
02-22-2010, 03:22 PM
I'm not interested in any sort of religious significance tied to the box.

The fact of the matter stands that the discovery of the Ark would be the greatest archeological discovery to-date.

its the 'holy grail' of archeology (hahaha, yah, irony eh?)

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 03:24 PM
The ark is everywhere.

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 03:27 PM
I think we make a grave error when we try to ascribe literal meaning to the Torah. It, in itself, is a religious document derivative of much more ancient religious mythos and legend.

pack3tg0st
02-22-2010, 03:29 PM
I think we make a grave error when we try to ascribe literal meaning to the Torah. It, in itself, is a religious document.

Its no different than reading any other piece of literature...

Legend is based on a modicum of truth somewhere.

I don't think I'm ascribing any sort of literal meaning to anything anywhere...

I'm taking the prevailing theory that Moses was in fact based on the life of Akhenaten of egypt. And extrapolating on that to include that if there was an ark, it would be egyptian.

Where's the literal thinking?

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 03:31 PM
The literal thinking is in taking the Exodus tale as historically accurate.

pack3tg0st
02-22-2010, 03:33 PM
The literal thinking is in taking the Exodus tale as historically accurate.

I'm not taking it as historically accurate.

I'm observing it as a legend, and contemplating what real events might have influenced the oral tradition.

anarch
02-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Did Akhenaten preform miracles similar to that of Moses? Mana in the desert, Water from the stone, the plagues, and all that?

pack3tg0st
02-22-2010, 03:41 PM
Did Akhenaten preform miracles similar to that of Moses? Mana in the desert, Water from the stone, the plagues, and all that?

Of course not... Akhenaten was nothing more than a man...

Miracles are the stuff of legend...

anarch
02-22-2010, 03:41 PM
The book of Hebrews lists items other than the word of god in the Ark, (manna, the staff / rod of Aaron) as does the Quran (artifacts from the house of Moses and Aaron). The Ark itself was / is alleged to have some rather interesting powers of its own, not least of which was the ability to chat with 'god'. There have doubtless been countless copies of the thing over the ages, but without the correct components in their proper proportions these other Arks don't seem to possess the pizazz that the original allegedly had.


Don't forget uram and thorim.. The armor you had to put on along with the two stones before you went to the ark to talk to god... I see them as basic components of the ark. One can not utilize the ark with out it.

anarch
02-22-2010, 03:44 PM
Of course not... Akhenaten was nothing more than a man...

Miracles are the stuff of legend...

Of course Of course... I was just wondering if they had similar stories... Water from the ground looks really impressive to those that don't know their a high water level their.

The intelligent often guard their secrets to make things look grand and miraculous.

Social control man.

GeneralStriker
02-22-2010, 03:53 PM
Don't forget uram and thorim.. The armor you had to put on along with the two stones before you went to the ark to talk to god... I see them as basic components of the ark. One can not utilize the ark with out it.
Urim and Thummim you mean?

mojo
02-22-2010, 09:49 PM
While i think Osmans theories have a lot of merit, i think the Moses mythos began even earlier than Akhenaten.


I'd like to add more to this thread when i get a chance pack, but will probably not be until much later today/tonight depending on which timezone you are in. :D

Here's some more food for thought.

ancienthistory.about.com (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/nemonarchs/g/Sargon.htm)

Sargon the Great ruled Sumer c. 2334-2279 B.C.


Like the Bible's Moses (http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/israeljudaea/a/aa091499.htm), Sargon may have been a Semite rather than a Sumerian. A story about Sargon's youth sounds like the Moses infancy story. The baby Sargon, nestled in a reed basket sealed with bitumen (http://archaeology.about.com/od/bcthroughbl/qt/bitumen.htm), was placed in the Euphrates River. The basket floated until it was rescued by a gardener or date grower. In this capacity he worked for the king of Kish, Ur-Zababa until he rose in the ranks to become the king's cupbearer.


Sargon, strong king, king of Agade, am I. My mother was a high priestess, my father I do not know. My paternal kin inhabit the mountain region. My city (of birth) is Azupiranu, which lies on the bank of the Euphrates. My mother, a high priestess, conceived me, in secret she bore me. She placed me in a reed basket, with bitumen she caulked my hatch. She abandoned me to the river from which I could not escape. The river carried me along: to Aqqi, the water drawer, it brought me. Aqqi, the water drawer, when immersing his bucket lifted me up. Aqqi, the water drawer, raised me as his adopted son. Aqqi, the water drawer, set me to his garden work. During my garden work, Istar loved me (so that) 55 years I ruled as king.


Now it could quite easily be argued that this does not negate Akhenaten being the historical Moses of the bible but merely that parts of the Sargon legend were applied to the legend of Akhenaten/Moses.
I tend to believe that it is a conglomeration of various mythos from Akkad, Ugarit, Babylon, Egypt and Sumer.
This doesn't discount the theory that the Ark was found in Tutankhamun's tomb or that Akhenaten was the biblical Moses, merely points out some similarities in the legend even further back in time.