A question to all...

[Ra187]

Lately i have been on a little tangent about who really found/explored the north american continent. i have read many theories some crazy, some with some valid and interesting point... Basically im just looking for a general consensus of the public here on who you believe was here first???

[Alessandra]

Not Columbus. :P

[Royal]

Not to be rude, but why does it matter?

[Infinite`Eternal`Forever]

Not Columbus. :P

Co-sign.

[Ra187]

to be honest it doesnt matter royal but its just something interesting in life i guess...and if it doesnt matter why are posting in this thread?

[Royal]

to be honest it doesnt matter royal but its just something interesting in life i guess...and if it doesnt matter why are posting in this thread?

So I can figure why it matters. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

[Ra187]

I'm not just super tired sorry bout that...and really it doesnt matter its just one of those mundane things that i like to ponder and i just wanted opinions thats all

[Foxtrot Oscar]

I seam to remeber reading something about the languages of certain Indian tribes being not-so linguistically removed from other pacific rim languages.

We came out of Africa and then headed to Japn for a top of the line laptop, wondered down and dropped a few Abos' off in Aus. Opened a spam factory in Hawaii and then populated the more recently named United States of Fat Bastards.

Fox

[UtopianPenguin]

Lately i have been on a little tangent about who really found/explored the north american continent. i have read many theories some crazy, some with some valid and interesting point... Basically im just looking for a general consensus of the public here on who you believe was here first???

Show me your research so far ?

EOF

[Cogburn]

who you believe was here first???

Shoshone, Cherokee, Navajo, Anasasi, Chumash, Iroquois, Aztec, Inca, Maya, Chippewa, Cahuilla, Omaha...

[Hobbit]

chinese - http://www.1421.tv/

the vikings probably did as well -

[Hobbit]

Shoshone, Cherokee, Navajo, Anasasi, Chumash, Iroquois, Aztec, Inca, Maya, Chippewa, Cahuilla, Omaha...


unacceptable - has to be da white man :)

[Hobbit]

there was probabaly more than one colonisation - Its an interesting topic-

Ancient mankinds seafaring capabilities are greatly underestimated.

[GeneralStriker]

the Clovis guys were here first

[Lexion]

Clovis points (arrowheads) have
also been found in France.

[GeneralStriker]

yeah! those guys got around! i think Johnlear found a few in Plato crater.

[MrPenny]

Clovis points (arrowheads) have
also been found in France.

French? No wonder they lost the place......

Heh!! Got my morning's gratuitous slander in.....now I feel better.

[GeneralStriker]

pretty sure this was the first Clovis guy there...

http://27.media.tumblr.com/Hnib9edSPoog4nu6NYpzd6e0o1_400.jpg

[hp]

Some guy from Halliburton's first oil exploration party.

[skunk]

Ra, your question is a bit misleading...Are you asking about the first non-indigenous people who discovered the americas? Because there were millions of people living here before the white man started fucking shit up.

[Ima Nasshole]

Being of Native American descent... we've always been here. Your question should read, who were the first unwelcomed guests?

Most likely the Mexicans.

[GeneralStriker]

Ra, your question is a bit misleading...Are you asking about the first non-indigenous people who discovered the americas? Because there were millions of people living here before the white man started fucking shit up.
The question was as clear as the current archaeological evidence:
Lately i have been on a little tangent about who really found/explored the north american continent.
Answer: Based on accepted archaeology: the Clovus culture.

[pack3tg0st]

Lately i have been on a little tangent about who really found/explored the north american continent. i have read many theories some crazy, some with some valid and interesting point... Basically im just looking for a general consensus of the public here on who you believe was here first???

From a post I did about a year ago:


1) Columbus left europe to prove that the earth was round, and was the first person to discover the new world.

Ok, this one is way off... Educated peoples since the time of the greeks had believed the Earth was round. This was true of columbus as well. The spherical shape of our world was well known by the time Columbus set sail.

Columbus is actually the about the 15th person to make it to the new world, give or take. There are some speculated groups of people that have some evidence, but not conclusive evidence... I will list them as follows, and will rank the quality of evidence from low to high:

High: 17,000 years ago, Siberian peoples populate north america via the bering straight
Moderate: 6000 BC, Indonesians reach south america
Moderate: 5000 BC, Japanese reach south/central america
High: 4000 BC, Another Siberian migration to North America
Low: 1000 BC Chinese have legends and many cultural similarities with Central America
Moderate: 1000 BC Africans most likely landed in centeral america.
Low: 500 BC Phoenicians, and Celtic Britains may have landed in the New England region
Low: 600 AD Irish land in Canada according to Norse legend and Written stories
High: 1000 AD Vikings land in Canada. (Lief Errickson)
Moderate: 1300 AD West Africans land in central america, and in the carribean
Low: 1375 AD Spanish supposedly land in Newfouldland
Low: 1481 AD A ship from Bristol, England lands in Newfoundland according to some historical sources
High: 1492 Columbus lands in the Caribbean.

some of these sources are less reputable than others. However, it is plainly obvious that Columbus did not discover North America.

why haven't you heard of these other people? Well, you have to reflect on what world view the textbooks and schools teach from. American History is remarkably "Euro-centric". meaning, it focuses only on the european point of view.

[GeneralStriker]

High: 17,000 years ago, Siberian peoples populate north america via the bering straightWell- there ya go. Good post.

[anarch]

I saw a history channel doc last year that spoke on the evidence that the Knights Templar had made an expedition to the Americas just a little before the Friday the thirteenth episode.

[Ima Nasshole]

I saw a history channel doc last year that spoke on the evidence that the Knights Templar had made an expedition to the Americas just a little before the Friday the thirteenth episode.
I believe it was the Kensington-Rune Stone episode.

[anarch]

Win!

[pack3tg0st]

Well- there ya go. Good post.

17,000 years BCE is still pre-clovis...

[GeneralStriker]

and the date is also an unsupported guess. but for the Clovus culture there is an archaeological record. my agreement is on the the Siberian aspect of the migration not on the accuracy of the date.

[pack3tg0st]

and the date is also an unsupported guess. but for the Clovus culture there is an archaeological record. my agreement is on the the Siberian aspect of the migration not on the accuracy of the date.

No, its supported... I could supply source after source after source to point to that date... but there's no point...

I've been given information since that post last year that puts the dates much earlier than that... possibly as early as 70,000 BCE

[GeneralStriker]

if that's the case then show us the research.

[GeneralStriker]

it's not enough to say, "but there's no point...." when that is the only point of this enquiry.

[pack3tg0st]

if that's the case then show us the research.

Doesn't matter.

When's the last time you actually accepted new information into any of your views on history?

Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess.

[GeneralStriker]

Doesn't matter. good answer.

[pack3tg0st]

good answer.

Maybe I should rephrase that.

'Pearls before swine' sound better?

[Ima Nasshole]

Doesn't matter.

When's the last time you actually accepted new information into any of your views on history?

Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess.
Especially when he's a cat.

[MissSilver]

The Delk track is one thing that boggles the mind.



http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/educational/watch/v172060356ZTB6xPY

[GeneralStriker]

Maybe I should rephrase that.

'Pearls before swine' sound better?
consider who's the swine first.

[WhispersInTheDark]

History is no more defined by European explorers in badly designed boats, than it is by the fucking "bible".

In the history of histories, both of these things will be mentioned in passing as humorous human foibles.

[pack3tg0st]

it's not enough to say, "but there's no point...." when that is the only point of this enquiry.

see you missed it.

There's no point in showing you the research or doing the legwork to try and present to you the leading evidence to the contrary of your argument.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You've already made your mind up. I'm an idiot because i'm a 'kid', you're the be-all end all of information because you're old. Whatever information I could present it moot, because you have everything in existence figured out.

Even if you do listen to what I have to say, you'll just stop posting in this thread when proven wrong.

You're not here to learn anything, you just walk in the door with your opinions and 'facts' already in your head... no further information necessary. If it doesn't suit your personal beliefs, you'll spend all day long trolling to change the topic of conversation.

That... is History as shown by a search of amkon.

I have no desire to yet again walk down that dead end road to nowhere and waste my time trying to convince you that you're opinions are wrong.

You should pick up a history book newer than 50 years old.

History doesn't change, but mankind's understanding of history does, and on a fairly regular basis.

[GeneralStriker]

History is no more defined by European explorers in badly designed boats, than it is by the fucking "bible".

In the history of histories, both of these things will be mentioned in passing as humorous human foibles.
That is a very good point. History is unfortunately home to shallow poseurs and amateurs of all stripe.

[pack3tg0st]

That is a very good point. History is unfortunately home to shallow poseurs and amateurs of all stripe.

I hear the same thing about philosophy majors.

[GeneralStriker]

I think you 'hear' whatever justifies your little life. So?

[pack3tg0st]

I think you 'hear' whatever justifies your little life. So?

:lol:

I think you missed the point of my post again BE.

I don't care what your opinion is.

You have succeeded in completely invalidating your existence here in my eyes.

Until you decide to grow up, and cease to be an impediment to any sort of serious discussion, you're dead to me.

[GeneralStriker]

hahahah like i care..

[GeneralStriker]

In the history of histories, both of these things will be mentioned in passing as humorous human foibles.Just for the sake of wonder- there is also evidence of human habitation in California during the Pliocene Epoch- (2.5 to 5.5 million years ago.) See Michael Cremo, "Forbidden Archaeology." This passion play of ours may have taken place many, many times...

[MissSilver]

hahahah like i care..


But but but... you do care BE.

Why else would you antagonize Pack in every single thread he posts in if you didn't care?

[WhispersInTheDark]

I don't understand the old bull/young bull argument here. There seemed to be general agreement on some things, just not academic majors.

Oh look! A field of heifers!

[Cogburn]

I saw a history channel doc last year that spoke on the evidence that the Knights Templar had made an expedition to the Americas just a little before the Friday the thirteenth episode.


I believe it was the Kensington-Rune Stone episode.

There's a bit more to this rumor beyond the hoax of the Kensington Rune Stone.

Rosslyn Chapel (http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/) in Scotland bears some evidence indicating knowledge of fauna only found in the Americas. The connection of the Knights Templar to the chapel is purely speculative (via freemasonry), although it does contain evidence of 15th century Britannia having knowledge of the New World they "shouldn't have had."

The work on the chapel itself was halted in 1484 when the primary sponsor died. The building is considered unfinished, however it is world renown for some of its bizarre architectural features.

The portion of the chapel pictured below was completed in circa 1444.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2dhvg1w.jpg

The designation of the carvings as unmistakably being that of maize has been validated by multiple disciplines.

Not only does this indicate that maize was known to 15th century Europe, but its inclusion in the carvings of Rosslyn Chapel indicate that it also bore a particular cultural significance to certain Europeans that has since been lost in the intervening 500 years.

Evidence such as this, to my mind, effectively destroys the commonly accepted history regarding the Age of Exploration.

We have been lied to for half a millennium.

[skunk]

Clovis is not the oldest settlement/peoples to arrive in the Americas...

Ok I am going to format this post based on supposed dates, starting from the most recent to the oldest. The Kennewick man is an example of later exploration, (post-Clovis) but was mentioned because its fascinating nonetheless.

Timeline of Human Exploration of the Americas

Estimated 9,000 years ago

Who Were the First Americans? (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1169905,00.html)

In short, the remains that came to be known as Kennewick Man were almost twice as old as the celebrated Iceman discovered in 1991 in an Alpine glacier, and among the oldest and most complete skeletons ever found in the Americas. Plenty of archaeological sites date back that far, or nearly so, but scientists have found only about 50 skeletons of such antiquity, most of them fragmentary.

"Mystery of the First Americans" transcript (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2705first.html)

Estimated 11,200 years ago

Clocking the First Americans (PDF) (http://smu.edu/anthro/faculty/dMeltzer/pdf%20files/AnnRevAnthro_1995.pdf)

Estimated 12,000 years ago

First Americans All from Siberia, Study Confirms (http://www.livescience.com/history/071127-genetic-bridge.html)

New genetic evidence, however, backs up a chilly northwestern arrival to North America from Siberia about 12,000 years ago, via a temporary land bridge spanning the Bering Strait. The findings further challenge an alternative idea that humans sprinkled in to both North and South America on open sea voyages 30,000 years in the past.

"We have reasonably clear genetic evidence that the most likely candidate for the source of Native American populations is somewhere in east Asia," said Noah Rosenberg, a genetic researcher at the University of Michigan Medical School.

Whence the First Americans? (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2005/12/13-03.html)

Because skulls similar to those at Lagoa Santa have been found in North and South America, Neves and Hubbe conclude that their data support a hypothesis in which two distinct populations colonized the New World: one group from southeast Asia that is morphologically similar to Australians and Melanesians, which arrived around 12,000 years ago (also via the Bering landbridge), and a second group from northeast Asia, which followed soon after and eventually gave rise to today's Native Americans. As for the immigrants fromwith southeast Asia, they may have been replaced after the second group from Asia arrived or may even have held on until Europeans arrived on the continent, Neves says.

Estimated 12,500 years ago

Who were the first americans (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0903_030903_bajaskull.html)

In 1996, archeologists in southern Chile found weapons and tools dating back 12,500 years. In Brazil, they found some of the oldest human remains in the Americas, among them a skeleton—named Luzia—that is more than 11,000 years old.

Luzia did not look like American Indians. Instead, her facial features matched most closely with the native Aborigines in Australia. These people date back to about 60,000 years and were themselves descended from the first humans who probably originated in Africa.

The researchers believe Luzia was part of a people, referred to as "Paleoamericans," who migrated into the Americas—possibly even by boat—long before the Mongoloid people. These Paleoamericans may later have been wiped out by or interbred with Mongoloids invading from the north.

Estimated 12,700 years ago

First Americans May Have Come From Australia (http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jan/first-americans-from-australia)

So Gonzalez, a geoarchaeologist, and her colleagues at Liverpool John Moores University in England radiocarbon-dated the skull and found its beauty was more than bone deep. Surprisingly, the analysis showed Peñon Woman III is 12,755 years old, older than any known ancestor of modern Native Americans.

Estimated 13,000 years ago

First Americans May Have Been European (http://www.livescience.com/history/060219_first_americans.html)

The first humans to spread across North America may have been seal hunters from France and Spain.

Also, when archaeologist Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution places American spearheads, called Clovis points, side-by-side with Siberian points, he sees a divergence of many characteristics.

Instead, Stanford said today, Clovis points match up much closer with Solutrean style tools, which researchers date to about 19,000 years ago. This suggests that the American people making Clovis points made Solutrean points before that.

There’s just one problem with this hypothesis—Solutrean toolmakers lived in France and Spain. Scientists know of no land-ice bridge that spanned that entire gap.

Stanford has an idea for how humans crossed the Atlantic, though—boats. Art from that era indicates that Solutrean populations in northern Spain were hunting marine animals, such as seals, walrus, and tuna.

...

Inuit use large, open hunting boats constructed from animal skins for longer trips or big hunts. These boats, called umiaq, can hold a dozen adults, as well as several children, dead seals or walruses, and even dog-sled teams. Inuit have been building these boats for thousands of years, and Stanford believes that Solutrean people may have used a similar design.

Clovis People Not First Americans, Study Shows (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070223-first-americans.html)

The so-called Clovis people, known for their distinctive spearheads, were not the first humans to set foot in the Americas after all, a new study says.

The find supports growing archaeological evidence found in recent years that disputes the notion that the Americas were originally populated by a single migration of people from Asia about 13,000 years ago.

New radiocarbon dating of Clovis-culture materials shows that this group inhabited the Americas a little later and for a shorter period of time than previously believed.

Archaeological evidence of human occupation in South America also dates to the same time as the Clovis-culture materials. This suggests that people were living in the Americas before the Clovis people arrived.

"I look at it as the final nail in the 'Clovis first' coffin," said Michael Waters, director of the Center for the Study of the First Americans at Texas A&M University.

...

"The Clovis-first model says it would have taken anywhere from 700 to 1,000 years for people to reach the southern tip of South America," Waters said. "It seems highly unlikely that the Clovis people could have flown down there in 200 years.

"This indicates pretty strongly that there were people living in both hemispheres at the same time."

But if humans lived in the Americas before the Clovis arrived, who were these other people and where did they come from?

"I think we're moving toward understanding that the peopling of the Americas was not a singular event like the Clovis-first model would have us believe," Waters said.

Instead it "was a process with people probably arriving at different times and taking different routes and potentially coming from different places."

Texas Archaeological Dig Challenges Assumptions about First Americans (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=texas-archaeological-dig)

In excavations starting in 1998 Gault has revealed that Clovis people lived at the site for extended periods over a span of 300 years, says Michael Collins, a research associate with the Texas Archeological Research Laboratory. The evidence? Scientists have found numerous tools manufactured from local stone, used until they were worn, then repaired repeatedly until they finally were discarded. In other words, Paleo-Indians were members of a settled community. "We're redefining Clovis," Collins says.

...

If it holds up, Collins's claim would add Gault to the list of proposed pre-Clovis sites, including Monte Verde in Chile, Meadowcroft Rockshelter in Pennsylvania and Cactus Hill in Virginia. They're all controversial, however, based on charges of contamination and other problems.

THE UNSATISFIED QUEST FOR THE FIRST AMERICANS: A GREAT PLAINS PERSPECTIVE (http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007SC/finalprogram/abstract_120179.htm)

Who were the first Americans? It’s an open question as archaeologists weigh the newest evidence. (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0012/feature3/index.html)

In the late 1950s Haynes worked on a dig in Nevada called Tule Springs, which reportedly predated Clovis sites. There prehistoric animal bones were associated with apparent hearths dating back more than 28,000 years.

What Haynes found instead was that the charcoal in the hearths wasn’t charcoal at all but decaying vegetation on its way to becoming coal. The dates were right, but there had been no hearths—and no humans.

Estimated 14,000 years ago

First Americans thrived on seaweed (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13861-first-americans-thrived-on-seaweed.html)

The evidence comes from 27 litres of material collected from the Monte Verde site in southern Chile, widely accepted as the oldest settlement in the Americas. Nine species of seaweed, carbon dated at 13,980 to 14,220 years old, played a major role in a diet that included land plants and animals.

Found! Fossil poo from first Americans (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/04/04/2207884.htm)

DNA from ancient human faeces found in a cave provides biological verification that people were in North America 14,000 years ago, researchers say.

DNA found in Oregon rewrites the book on the first native Americans (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/dna-found-in-oregon-rewrites-the-book-on-the-first-native-americans-804542.html)

Textbook accounts of how the Americas were first populated may have to be re-written following the discovery of the oldest DNA of prehistoric humans who lived 14,300 years ago in what is now Oregon.

Estimated 15,000 years ago

Tooth DNA Dates The First Americans (http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jan/tooth-dna-dates-the-first-americans)

It’s probably the happiest root canal ever: Molecular archaeologists reported last January that they had drilled into a 10,300-year-old human tooth discovered in Alaska and extracted genetic gold. The molar, recovered from skeletal remains found in 1996 in On Your Knees Cave, located on Prince of Wales Island off southern Alaska, holds the oldest genetic sample ever recovered in the Americas. That sample supports the theory that humans first arrived here about 15,000 years ago and then migrated down the continent’s western coastline.

Palaeoanthropology: Tracking the first Americans (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v425/n6953/full/425023a.html)

Some archaeological sites in South America date from 12,500 years ago, which suggests that the first humans arrived at least 15,000 years ago.

Does skull prove that the first Americans came from Europe? (http://www.utexas.edu/courses/stross/ant322m_files/1stpersons.htm)

Estimated 15-17,000 years ago

First Americans Arrived on 2 Separate Paths (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010802197.html)

Approximately 15,000 to 17,000 years ago, one group of people came to North America via the Beringia landmass, which once connected northeast Siberia to Alaska, and moved down the Pacific coastline, according to findings published online in the Jan. 8 issue of Current Biology. About the same time, another group of people used the Beringia bridge and entered the eastern Rocky Mountain region after crossing an open land corridor between two ice sheets.

The First Americans? Make That the First Two (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/labnotes/archive/2009/01/08/the-first-americans-make-that-the-first-two.aspx)

A cool new study published online today in the journal Current Biology may bury that simplistic assumption once and for all: according to the evidence of mitochondrial DNA, the first Americans arrived in at least two separate migrations, at about the same time, about 15,000 to 17,000 years ago.

Estimated 16-30,000 years ago

Quest for the Origins of the First Americans (http://wings.buffalo.edu/research/anthrogis/JWA/V1N2/riley-rev.html)

Estimated 30-33,000 years ago

Retrace the trek of the first Americans (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3077301/)

Research presented in February 1998 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, indicated that at least two waves of settlers crossed over to the Americas — with the first arriving well more than 20,000 years ago.

Dillehay said charcoal from what could be a fire pit, deep down in the Monte Verde excavation, was dated to 33,000 years ago based on radioactive carbon readings.

Estimated 30-40,000 years ago

The First Americans (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/300-399/nb360.htm)

It is now generally accepted by scientists that the first humans arrived on this American continent some thirty or forty thousand years ago. It is believed that they came from Asia, across what we call Bering
Strait.

Estimated 3,000-38,000 years ago

http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/USAH026-H.gif

Estimated 38-40,000 years ago

Footprints rewrite history of first Americans (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7627--footprints-rewrite-history-of-first-americans.html)

Human footprints discovered beside an ancient Mexican lake have been dated to 40,000 years ago. If the finding survives the controversy it is bound to stir up, it means that humans must have moved into the New World at least 30,000 years earlier than previously thought.

"If true, this would completely change our view of how and when the Americas were first colonised," says Chris Stringer, head of human origins at the Natural History Museum in London, UK. But like several US experts, he is reserving judgement until the dates can be independently confirmed.

...

The key date came from shells in the lake sediments, which the team carbon-dated to 38,000 years ago. Sand grains baked into the ash and dated using optically stimulated luminescence corroborated the finding.

The researchers also used argon-argon, uranium series and electron spin resonance techniques to date the layers. "The footprints are clearly older than 38,000 years," says team member Tom Higham of the carbon-dating lab at the University of Oxford, US.

First Americans Endured 20,000-Year Layover (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/02/13/beringia-native-american.html)

The first New World entrants, who likely came from Asia, endured a 20,000-year "layover" on a strip of land called Beringia that once connected Alaska to Siberia, according to a new research model.

The model combines genetics with climate, archaeological and geological information to paint a vivid picture of how the Americas were first populated by approximately 1,000 to 5,000 people, instead of just 100, as was previously believed.

The findings, published this week in the journal PLoS ONE, also explain why Native Americans are genetically similar to east central Asians, but show noticeable differences too.

"Twenty thousand years is sufficient time to create the genetic polymorphisms that distinguish Native Americans, although I don't think Native Americans are a different race," co-author Connie Mulligan told Discovery News.

Footprints of 'first Americans' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4650307.stm)

Estimated 40,000 years ago

The First Americans (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1281901.html)

Johanna Nichols, a professor of Slavic languages and literature at the University of California at Berkeley, has reached a conclusion similar to Brace's, by way of an entirely different approach. While Brace has analyzed the most substantial bits of our past, Nichols has focused on the most ephemeral--language.

She says that new linguistic evidence from indigenous languages throughout the New World strongly suggests that humans have been in the Americas since as early as 40,000 BCE. She says that it is only along the West Coast that languages appear to have come from immigrants who arrived after the ice age, 14,000 years ago.

...

To bolster her argument for an early settlement date, Nichols points to findings from the Monte Verde site in southern Chile. It has been dated at 12,500 years old, which means the area was occupied during the last ice age. And, the Monte Verde people would have needed at least 6500 years to travel from Alaska to Chile. Yet, that only takes us back to about 19,000 years ago. Here is where her study of language diversity provides the rest of the explanation for the 40,000 BCE settlement date. Her research suggests a very high degree of language diversity, and that, says Nichols, is something that happens only with time. She maintains that the approximately 150 distinct Native American language families we know of today must have required at least 35,000 years to develop.

Estimated 50,000 years ago

'First Americans were Australian' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/430944.stm)

The first Americans were descended from Australian aborigines, according to evidence in a new BBC documentary.

The programme, Ancient Voices, shows that the dimensions of prehistoric skulls found in Brazil match those of the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia. Other evidence suggests that these first Americans were later massacred by invaders from Asia.

The new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years.

...

Images of giant armadillos, which died out before the last ice age, show the artists who drew them lived before even the natives who greeted the Europeans.

The skull dimensions and facial features match most closely the native people of Australia and Melanesia. These people date back to about 60,000 years, and were themselves descended from the first humans, who left Africa about 100,000 years ago.

...

Archaeologists speculate that such an incredible sea voyage, from Australia to Brazil, would not have been undertaken knowingly but by accident.

Just three years ago, five African fishermen were caught in a storm and a few weeks later were washed up on the shores of South America. Two of the fishermen died, but three made it alive.

...

The only evidence of any survivors comes from Terra del Fuego, the islands at the remotest southern tip of South America.

The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/430000/images/_430944_painting300.jpg

Ancient Mysteries - The First Americans

4148336/ancient_mysteries_the_first_americans/

First Americans may have crossed Atlantic 50,000 years ago (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1118/p01s02-usgn.html)

Estimated 150,000 years ago

Science: The First Americans (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,821933,00.html)

How long has man lived in the Western Hemisphere? The more cautious anthropologists give him 10,000 to 15,000 years. But Dr. George F. Carter of Johns Hopkins thinks this estimate is much too conservative. There is good reason to believe, says Carter, that there were Americans of a primitive sort in interglacial times, more than 150,000 years ago.

Prehistory (no date given)

The First Americans (http://newdeal.feri.org/guides/tnguide/ch03.htm)

Early in prehistoric times wandering tribes of aborigines - the remote ancestors of the historic Indians - entered the territory that is now Tennessee. Successive waves of migration followed, and many diverse groups came into contact with one another. Some were cave dwellers who subsisted by hunting and fishing, and some were agricultural tribes who made excellent pottery and lived in large fortified towns.

You know what the fascinating part about this particular article is?

It was written back in 1939...

Compiled and Written by the Federal Writers' Project of the Work Projects Administration for the State of Tennessee
AMERICAN GUIDE SERIES

FIRST PUBLISHED IN DECEMBER 1939

[skunk]

Fuck I think I'm done for now.

There you have it folks, theories (and proof) that humans have been in the Americas for thousands of years prior to the settlers at Clovis.

[WhispersInTheDark]

:thumleft:

Wonder who takes over from the humans thousands of years after this historical thread.

[GeneralStriker]

Have you considered Cremo- Forbidden Archaeology? If his theory is correct civilization has been recreated over the course of millions (not thousands) of years. Archaeology is essentially a function of artifacts- and he produces them. That's what makes his opus so compelling. Here's his web site if you're interested. http://www.mcremo.com/
In a sense his work is much like Charles Fort's in that he discovers and describes the scientific 'damned'- the inconvenient exceptions to the modern anthropological myth.

[Alessandra]

No, its supported... I could supply source after source after source to point to that date... but there's no point...


I know right?
Bringing logic and evidence in a discussion. For shame.

[skunk]

Have you considered Cremo- Forbidden Archaeology? If his theory is correct civilization has been recreated over the course of millions (not thousands) of years.

I think there's something to that theory. Almost impossible to prove though.

[GeneralStriker]

Everything is almost impossible to prove. That's why we call it 'theory.' But Cremo supports his amazing theory well. It's a great pleasure to read if you're into 'outside the box' thinking- which I think we all are here..

[Cogburn]

While most of the outlier evidence presented by Cremo is evidentially supported, there are vast portions of FA that amount to little more than the repetition of ghost stories.

It's not quite the gospel you would claim, though the most recent edition is far better than previous ones.

Charles Fort, indeed.

[guinnessford]

Shoshone, Cherokee, Navajo, Anasasi, Chumash, Iroquois, Aztec, Inca, Maya, Chippewa, Cahuilla, Omaha...


i was going there, but also have a question.

if man (and women) were mostly originated from around the middle east (?) then how did they get to this continent???

[skunk]

Walking over the land bridge in the Bering Strait, and by boat.

[guinnessford]

which ones though, skunk?

was there a certain tribe we can go back far enuff to trace?

[skunk]

I mean all of the tribes had to come over if we use the "out of Africa" migration theory of evolution.

There is evidence for several large migrations. People would have split up into smaller groups after they came to the Americas.

http://media.maps.com/magellan/Images/USAH026-H.gif

Land bridge:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Beringia_land_bridge-noaagov.gif

[Cogburn]

There were at least 7(?) other cousin races to modern humans that existed up to as recent as 10,000 years ago, and as far back as 4 million years ago.

I say this for the reason that most of Cremo's most compelling evidence of 2 million year old "humans" in North America does not indicate the exact species of origin.

The migration timeline applies to homo sapiens.

That doesn't mean that previous bipedal races weren't sentient, civilized cultures.

[guinnessford]

hmm..map shows nobody going to australia....

[GeneralStriker]

who would?

[MissSilver]

hmm..map shows nobody going to australia....

Last I heard, the oldest human DNA was found in Australia, some Abo tribe. Might be that some people left Australia instead of migrating there.


Always wondered tho if humans like land got separated and drifted apart one and other over the thousands of years

[WhispersInTheDark]

The Australian Aboriginals are the oldest unmingled race in the world (40,000 years +).

Or they were, until the English settled in the 18th century "A.D.", they didn't have a lot of trouble from the Dutch or French before them. Subsequently their treatment has been near genocide, with a few well documented sad social experiments as well.

I don't know if the tribes moving to the Americas decided to leave the great southern land to their older distant cousins. The map doesn't say much about that, or Africa.

[Cogburn]

There's a thread here that someone posted about Aboriginal DNA being the oldest in the world.

Search feature sucks too much to find it, however.

[WITCH HUNT]

see you missed it.

There's no point in showing you the research or doing the legwork to try and present to you the leading evidence to the contrary of your argument.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You've already made your mind up. I'm an idiot because i'm a 'kid', you're the be-all end all of information because you're old. Whatever information I could present it moot, because you have everything in existence figured out.

Even if you do listen to what I have to say, you'll just stop posting in this thread when proven wrong.

You're not here to learn anything, you just walk in the door with your opinions and 'facts' already in your head... no further information necessary. If it doesn't suit your personal beliefs, you'll spend all day long trolling to change the topic of conversation.

That... is History as shown by a search of amkon.

I have no desire to yet again walk down that dead end road to nowhere and waste my time trying to convince you that you're opinions are wrong.

You should pick up a history book newer than 50 years old.

History doesn't change, but mankind's understanding of history does, and on a fairly regular basis.

IMO, this has to be the most subtle, to the point, complete "Fuck You", ever put in a discussion board! DAMN, this was a BEAUTIFUL thing!

I love Amkon!!!!!!

[KIWI]

IMO, this has to be the most subtle, to the point, complete "Fuck You",

nah........ not bad, but not necessary, wear your anger on your lips, not in your belly,....move on. Dare I say it, like adults? hahaha and dont worry, the irony of that aint lost on me

take a leaf from skunk and BE's book, being civil to each other a few pages back!

good thread Ra, not quite my god yet,.... but I no longer want to throw rocks at you.

I love the Abbo's me, (getting back to the theme) and have some good info somewhere (I find) on their telepathic abillities...

generally accepted as latent in all hoo-mans but said to be still functioning in their race because of their genetic purity and their extremely minimiistic nomadic lifestyle

err, until we sailed into Botany Bay (sheepish look go's here)

I would very much like to discuss Velikovsky's Earth in Upheavel, I reckon it is an important work that should be considered regards the whole issue at hand here

if there is one thing I think we could all agree on would be that our distribution dates, locations, and paths of migration are still not known as hard fact

[Ra187]

lol i havent look at the thread in a couple days kinda forgot about it. me and eye were talking about this thread the other night and i realize that my thread creating skills need some drastic work im kinda new to this still....but im trying....and with this thread i wasnt really trying to learn anything, i was simply trying to get a topic started and see what people think and where it went from there...

and kiwi thanks for not wanting to throw rocks at me...

[Raptor Jesus]

Cogburn,
If you're interested in the Kensington Stone you might want to have a look at the Clandestiny saga on ATS from last Autumn. That whole scuffle seems to have completely bypassed Amkon.

[theeindiee]

I was here first.

So get out, and leave yer women... and chicken.... and the best recipies for alfredo dishes.... and all the chevy chase movies.... and Bill Murray's mansion since he died.