mojo
12-30-2009, 08:01 PM
Found a bunch of research i was doing on the Silk Road connection to the Mesopotamian and Harrapan civilizations.
Originally posted by Triangle.
Do you have an ancient China thread? Im especially interested in what was happening in Guangdong a couple of thousand years ago:
Five Rams descended from heaven to found the city of Guangzhou. O RLY?
I don't have any research specifically related to Guangdong, however you might find some of this interesting and perhaps their may be some connections worth following up.
Guangzhou is part of the silk road route, at the end or the beginning of the journey depending on your perspective.
Chinese writing '8,000 years old'
If this writing is authenticated as such it would then predate Sumerian text as the earliest form of written communication.
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6669569.stm)
Chinese archaeologists studying ancient rock carvings say they have evidence that modern Chinese script is thousands of years older than previously thought.
</I>
news.xinhuanet.com (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-05/18/content_6121225.htm)
The pictographs are on the rock carvings in Damaidi, at Beishan Mountain in northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, which covers about 450 square kilometers with more than 10,000 prehistoric rock carvings.
Paleographers claim that the pictographs may take the history of Chinese characters back to 7,000 to 8,000 years ago.
</I>
www.china.org.cn (http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/117261.htm)
Besides its large number, the rock art in Damaidi is also peculiar for its rich and varied subject matter, including mythological creatures, animals, symbolic designs, events and human figures, Zhou added.
Half of the cliff carvings were created during the Neolithic Age about 7,000 years ago, and the animal figures, such as sheep, horses, deer, dogs and tigers, were the dominant images in the petroglyphs of that time, according to Li Xiangshi, a researcher with the Cliff Carving Research Center of the No 2 Northwest College of Nationalities.
</I>
There was also this discovery of an earlier written text found in Pakistan which would also predate Sumerian and Egyptian text. Though this discovery was made a number of years ago.
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/334517.stm)
So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years.
They were found at a site called Harappa in the region where the great Harappan or Indus civilisation flourished four and a half thousand years ago.
"It's a big question as to if we can call what we have found true writing," he told BBC News Online, "but we have found symbols that have similarities to what became Indus script.
It is interesting that as more and more discovery's take place that the 'accepted view' of human history is getting pushed further back.
'Established facts' are often being put forth by authoritive historians as arguments against alternative historical view points being expressed, yet when the goal posts are regularly being moved it seems illogical to not at least consider some of the alternative views being tendered.
I've often felt that our view of ancient history is no where near as accurate as some claim and that there will continue to be some amazing discoveries.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/chinese_origins.html)
The inscriptions on these bones tell us that by 1200 BC Chinese writing was already a highly developed writing system which was used to record a language fairly similar to classical Chinese. Such a complex and sophisticated script certainly has a history but so far we found no traces of its predecessors.
If it was already highly developed in 1200bc then is that such a large leap for the formative stages for that writing to have begun around 6500bc?
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2956925.stm)
The archaeologists say they bear similarities to written characters used thousands of years later during the Shang dynasty, which lasted from 1700-1100 BC.
But Professor Keightley did say the signs appeared to be highly "schematised" or stylised. This is a feature of Chinese written characters.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/chinese_origins.html)
The inscriptions on these bones tell us that by 1200 BC Chinese writing was already a highly developed writing system which was used to record a language fairly similar to classical Chinese. Such a complex and sophisticated script certainly has a history but so far we found no traces of its predecessors.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/pictograph.html)
As far as we know, all phonetic systems at one point evolved out of pictographic ones. This circumstance had led certain scholars to the belief in "developed" and "primitive" writing systems; the idea was that those scripts which were still using pictographic characters were merely at a lower stage of evolution than those with alphabetic or monosyllabic symbols.
oracle_bone_script.totallyexplained.com (http://oracle_bone_script.totallyexplained.com/)
Despite the archaic and relatively pictorial appearance of the oracle bone script, it's in fact a fully functional writing system, for example, one fully capable of recording language, which clearly implies an earlier period of development. Unfortunately there are virtually no materials providing evidence from such a formative period.
So it doesnt seem unreasonable to expect that there was a much earlier period to the oracle bones script, which probably started out as pictographs, and over laying these areas where the pictographs have been found, they may be finding the evolved symbols in between the pictograph stage and the writing stage?
And then there is this find in Turkmenistan.
Another possible tie in to the Chinese as this civilisation was on what eventually became the silk road route, perhaps that trade route was being used earlier than previously thought, or it was influenced by the mesopotamian and harrapan civilisations. Strange though that the symbols on the seal resemble ancient Chinese. Could be more circumstantial evidence that the Chinese had started writing earlier than believed?
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1330705.stm)
A previously unknown civilisation was using writing in Central Asia 4,000 years ago, hundreds of years before Chinese writing developed, archaeologists have discovered.
It is believed to date from 2300 BC, at a time when literate civilisations existed in Mesopotamia, Iran, and the Indus River Valley.
The symbols on the seal may be related to ancient Chinese, but China is not believed to have developed writing at the time the artefact was made.
Picture of symbols found at Daimaidi.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/dmdimage.jpg
Picture of Oracle bones.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/jiaguwen.jpg
Rendering of pictographs from Daimaidi.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/dmdtianxiang.jpg
http://granitestudio.blogspot.com/2007/05/xinhua-cliff-carvings-may-rewrite.html
The images change over time, suggesting that many different cultures had used the site over the centuries.
And some Sumerian cuneiform for comparison, first an early form.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/harappa.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/sumerpicto.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/su_signs.gif
With regards to the possible silk road connection i came across this and made some tenuous connections of my own, see what you think.
news.nationalgeographic.com (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070524-china-dna.html)
The burial style and multicolor reliefs found in the tomb are characteristic of Central Asia at the time, experts say.
The people pictured in the reliefs, however, have European traits, such as straight noses and deep-set eyes.
Perhaps a trader that stayed in China and married, if this person or persons or his ancestors came from a Mesopotamian or Indus civilisation they may have bought with them the necessary skills to introduce writing, hence the similarity of the symbols/characters found in Turkmenistan to that of Chinese characters. His Father and Grandfather came from a province in Nth Western China and would also have European origins? More speculation, but possibly a group of traders from western Europe that stayed on in China and over time spread further eastward into central China. All these areas are either on or very close to the silk road route.
news.nationalgeographic.com (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070524-china-dna_2.html)
The discovery of a person of european genealogy found in a tomb in central China. Yu Hong died in A.D. 592, at the age of 59. His wife, who died in A.D. 598, was buried in the same grave.
His lineage retreats Nth Westward.
"Was it just this one man [who moved into the area], or was it a large family including this man, or was it an even larger group of people from his ancestral population?" she asked.
Lets suppose that he is the ancestor of a group of traders that moved eastward into China from Europe/Mesopotamia!
The carvings suggest that his grandfather and father lived in northwest China's Xinjiang region and were nobles of the Yu country for which he is named.
This is the area his ancestors occupied after arriving from Europe, it's on the silk road route!
www.travelchinaguide.com (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/cityguides/xinjiang/)
Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region covers over 1,600,000 square kilometers (617,763 square miles), one-sixth of China's total territory, making it China's largest province. Xinjiang borders Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan, Uzbekistan, Tadzhikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. With a population of over 19 million, Xinjiang is home to 47 ethnic groups including the Uygur, the major ethnic group in Xinjiang
The time line doesnt quite match up, but the dating techniques aren't exact?
library.thinkquest.org (http://library.thinkquest.org/13406/sr/)
The Silk Road is the most well-known trading route of ancient Chinese civilization. Trade in silk grew under the Han Dynasty ( 202 BC - AD 220) in the first and second centuries AD
It's my belief that the Silk Road route in one form or another was in use [b]at least 1500 years earlier than this and possibly longer.
Check out the maps to see how closely interconnected Turkmanistan, Xinjiang region, Taiyuan are on the silk road trade route.
en.wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road)
The Silk Road, or Silk Route, is an interconnected series of ancient trade routes through various regions of the Asian continent mainly connecting Chang'an (today's Xi'an) in China, with Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. It extends over 8,000 km (5,000 miles) on land and sea. Trade on the Silk Route was a significant factor in the development of the great civilizations of China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, India, and Rome, and helped to lay the foundations for the modern world.
Perhaps it had a lot to do with the development of writing throughout this region as well, and is a lot older than originally thought.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/china-d.gif
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/silkmap.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/poloroute.gif
Notice the regions the road travels through and the many similarities these regions have in early pictographic symbols and writing.
A 3000 year old mummy of a Scythian princess was found in the 90's, her body was covered in tattoo's which were pictographic in nature, also close to the Silk Road route.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1109463/posts
http://www.sibtours.com/?GroupId=161&ParentID=101
Trading would seem to be one of the major reasons for inventing a set of symbols or writing as a means of accounting for goods, so finding a link between one of the greatest ever known trade routes and the development of writing through the regions that the trade route travels is a no brainer imho.
Originally posted by Triangle.
Do you have an ancient China thread? Im especially interested in what was happening in Guangdong a couple of thousand years ago:
Five Rams descended from heaven to found the city of Guangzhou. O RLY?
I don't have any research specifically related to Guangdong, however you might find some of this interesting and perhaps their may be some connections worth following up.
Guangzhou is part of the silk road route, at the end or the beginning of the journey depending on your perspective.
Chinese writing '8,000 years old'
If this writing is authenticated as such it would then predate Sumerian text as the earliest form of written communication.
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6669569.stm)
Chinese archaeologists studying ancient rock carvings say they have evidence that modern Chinese script is thousands of years older than previously thought.
</I>
news.xinhuanet.com (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-05/18/content_6121225.htm)
The pictographs are on the rock carvings in Damaidi, at Beishan Mountain in northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, which covers about 450 square kilometers with more than 10,000 prehistoric rock carvings.
Paleographers claim that the pictographs may take the history of Chinese characters back to 7,000 to 8,000 years ago.
</I>
www.china.org.cn (http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/117261.htm)
Besides its large number, the rock art in Damaidi is also peculiar for its rich and varied subject matter, including mythological creatures, animals, symbolic designs, events and human figures, Zhou added.
Half of the cliff carvings were created during the Neolithic Age about 7,000 years ago, and the animal figures, such as sheep, horses, deer, dogs and tigers, were the dominant images in the petroglyphs of that time, according to Li Xiangshi, a researcher with the Cliff Carving Research Center of the No 2 Northwest College of Nationalities.
</I>
There was also this discovery of an earlier written text found in Pakistan which would also predate Sumerian and Egyptian text. Though this discovery was made a number of years ago.
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/334517.stm)
So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years.
They were found at a site called Harappa in the region where the great Harappan or Indus civilisation flourished four and a half thousand years ago.
"It's a big question as to if we can call what we have found true writing," he told BBC News Online, "but we have found symbols that have similarities to what became Indus script.
It is interesting that as more and more discovery's take place that the 'accepted view' of human history is getting pushed further back.
'Established facts' are often being put forth by authoritive historians as arguments against alternative historical view points being expressed, yet when the goal posts are regularly being moved it seems illogical to not at least consider some of the alternative views being tendered.
I've often felt that our view of ancient history is no where near as accurate as some claim and that there will continue to be some amazing discoveries.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/chinese_origins.html)
The inscriptions on these bones tell us that by 1200 BC Chinese writing was already a highly developed writing system which was used to record a language fairly similar to classical Chinese. Such a complex and sophisticated script certainly has a history but so far we found no traces of its predecessors.
If it was already highly developed in 1200bc then is that such a large leap for the formative stages for that writing to have begun around 6500bc?
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2956925.stm)
The archaeologists say they bear similarities to written characters used thousands of years later during the Shang dynasty, which lasted from 1700-1100 BC.
But Professor Keightley did say the signs appeared to be highly "schematised" or stylised. This is a feature of Chinese written characters.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/chinese_origins.html)
The inscriptions on these bones tell us that by 1200 BC Chinese writing was already a highly developed writing system which was used to record a language fairly similar to classical Chinese. Such a complex and sophisticated script certainly has a history but so far we found no traces of its predecessors.
www.logoi.com (http://www.logoi.com/notes/pictograph.html)
As far as we know, all phonetic systems at one point evolved out of pictographic ones. This circumstance had led certain scholars to the belief in "developed" and "primitive" writing systems; the idea was that those scripts which were still using pictographic characters were merely at a lower stage of evolution than those with alphabetic or monosyllabic symbols.
oracle_bone_script.totallyexplained.com (http://oracle_bone_script.totallyexplained.com/)
Despite the archaic and relatively pictorial appearance of the oracle bone script, it's in fact a fully functional writing system, for example, one fully capable of recording language, which clearly implies an earlier period of development. Unfortunately there are virtually no materials providing evidence from such a formative period.
So it doesnt seem unreasonable to expect that there was a much earlier period to the oracle bones script, which probably started out as pictographs, and over laying these areas where the pictographs have been found, they may be finding the evolved symbols in between the pictograph stage and the writing stage?
And then there is this find in Turkmenistan.
Another possible tie in to the Chinese as this civilisation was on what eventually became the silk road route, perhaps that trade route was being used earlier than previously thought, or it was influenced by the mesopotamian and harrapan civilisations. Strange though that the symbols on the seal resemble ancient Chinese. Could be more circumstantial evidence that the Chinese had started writing earlier than believed?
news.bbc.co.uk (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1330705.stm)
A previously unknown civilisation was using writing in Central Asia 4,000 years ago, hundreds of years before Chinese writing developed, archaeologists have discovered.
It is believed to date from 2300 BC, at a time when literate civilisations existed in Mesopotamia, Iran, and the Indus River Valley.
The symbols on the seal may be related to ancient Chinese, but China is not believed to have developed writing at the time the artefact was made.
Picture of symbols found at Daimaidi.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/dmdimage.jpg
Picture of Oracle bones.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/jiaguwen.jpg
Rendering of pictographs from Daimaidi.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/dmdtianxiang.jpg
http://granitestudio.blogspot.com/2007/05/xinhua-cliff-carvings-may-rewrite.html
The images change over time, suggesting that many different cultures had used the site over the centuries.
And some Sumerian cuneiform for comparison, first an early form.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/harappa.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/sumerpicto.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/su_signs.gif
With regards to the possible silk road connection i came across this and made some tenuous connections of my own, see what you think.
news.nationalgeographic.com (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070524-china-dna.html)
The burial style and multicolor reliefs found in the tomb are characteristic of Central Asia at the time, experts say.
The people pictured in the reliefs, however, have European traits, such as straight noses and deep-set eyes.
Perhaps a trader that stayed in China and married, if this person or persons or his ancestors came from a Mesopotamian or Indus civilisation they may have bought with them the necessary skills to introduce writing, hence the similarity of the symbols/characters found in Turkmenistan to that of Chinese characters. His Father and Grandfather came from a province in Nth Western China and would also have European origins? More speculation, but possibly a group of traders from western Europe that stayed on in China and over time spread further eastward into central China. All these areas are either on or very close to the silk road route.
news.nationalgeographic.com (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070524-china-dna_2.html)
The discovery of a person of european genealogy found in a tomb in central China. Yu Hong died in A.D. 592, at the age of 59. His wife, who died in A.D. 598, was buried in the same grave.
His lineage retreats Nth Westward.
"Was it just this one man [who moved into the area], or was it a large family including this man, or was it an even larger group of people from his ancestral population?" she asked.
Lets suppose that he is the ancestor of a group of traders that moved eastward into China from Europe/Mesopotamia!
The carvings suggest that his grandfather and father lived in northwest China's Xinjiang region and were nobles of the Yu country for which he is named.
This is the area his ancestors occupied after arriving from Europe, it's on the silk road route!
www.travelchinaguide.com (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/cityguides/xinjiang/)
Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region covers over 1,600,000 square kilometers (617,763 square miles), one-sixth of China's total territory, making it China's largest province. Xinjiang borders Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan, Uzbekistan, Tadzhikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. With a population of over 19 million, Xinjiang is home to 47 ethnic groups including the Uygur, the major ethnic group in Xinjiang
The time line doesnt quite match up, but the dating techniques aren't exact?
library.thinkquest.org (http://library.thinkquest.org/13406/sr/)
The Silk Road is the most well-known trading route of ancient Chinese civilization. Trade in silk grew under the Han Dynasty ( 202 BC - AD 220) in the first and second centuries AD
It's my belief that the Silk Road route in one form or another was in use [b]at least 1500 years earlier than this and possibly longer.
Check out the maps to see how closely interconnected Turkmanistan, Xinjiang region, Taiyuan are on the silk road trade route.
en.wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road)
The Silk Road, or Silk Route, is an interconnected series of ancient trade routes through various regions of the Asian continent mainly connecting Chang'an (today's Xi'an) in China, with Asia Minor and the Mediterranean. It extends over 8,000 km (5,000 miles) on land and sea. Trade on the Silk Route was a significant factor in the development of the great civilizations of China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, India, and Rome, and helped to lay the foundations for the modern world.
Perhaps it had a lot to do with the development of writing throughout this region as well, and is a lot older than originally thought.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/china-d.gif
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/silkmap.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/poloroute.gif
Notice the regions the road travels through and the many similarities these regions have in early pictographic symbols and writing.
A 3000 year old mummy of a Scythian princess was found in the 90's, her body was covered in tattoo's which were pictographic in nature, also close to the Silk Road route.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1109463/posts
http://www.sibtours.com/?GroupId=161&ParentID=101
Trading would seem to be one of the major reasons for inventing a set of symbols or writing as a means of accounting for goods, so finding a link between one of the greatest ever known trade routes and the development of writing through the regions that the trade route travels is a no brainer imho.