Climate-change researchers admit their data is 'garbage'

[Cogburn]

Yes... just in case it hasn't gotten through your turkey coma just yet, global warming is the largest hoax ever perpetrated.


The global-cooling cover-up

The climate-gate revelations have exposed an unprecedented coordinated attempt by academics to distort research for political ends. Anyone interested in accurate science should be appalled at the manipulation of data "to hide the decline [in temperature]" and deletion of e-mail exchanges and data so as not to reveal information that would support global-warming skeptics. These hacks are not just guilty of bad science. In the United Kingdom, deleting e-mail messages to prevent their disclosure from a Freedom of Information Act request is a crime.

The story has gotten worse since the global-cooling cover-up was exposed through a treasure trove of leaked e-mails a week ago. The Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia has been incredibly influential in the global-warming debate. The CRU claims the world's largest temperature data set, and its research and mathematical models form the basis of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) 2007 report.

Professor Phil Jones, head of the CRU and contributing author to the United Nation's IPCC report chapter titled "Detection of Climate Change and Attribution of Causes," says he "accidentally" deleted some raw temperature data used to construct the aggregate temperature data CRU distributed. If you believe that, you're probably watching too many Al Gore videos.

Mr. Jones is the same professor who warned that global-warming skeptics "have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone."

Other revelations hit at the very core of the global-warming debate. The leaked e-mails indicate that the people at the CRU can't even figure out how their aggregate data was put together. CRU activists claimed that they took individual temperature readings at individual stations and averaged the information out to produce temperature readings over larger areas. One of the leaked documents states that their aggregation procedure "renders the station counts totally meaningless." The benefit: "So, we can have a proper result, but only by including a load of garbage!"

Academics around the world who have spent years working on papers using this data must be in full panic mode. By the admission of the global-warming theocracy's own self-appointed experts, the data they have been using is simply "garbage."

For global-warming advocates, there is an additional problem: The aggregated data appear to have been constructed to show an increase in temperatures. CBS' Declan McCullagh finds that the computer code contains programmer-written notes addressed to themselves or future people who will be working with the program. The notes include these revealing instructions: "Apply a VERY ARTIFICIAL correction for decline!!" and "Low pass filtering at century and longer time scales never gets rid of the trend - so eventually I start to scale down the 120-yr low pass time series to mimic the effect of removing/adding longer time scales!"

The programmers apparently had to try at least a couple of adjustments before they could get their aggregated data to show an increase in temperatures.

Other global-warming advocates privately acknowledge what they won't concede publicly, that temperature changes haven't been consistent with their models. Kevin E. Trenberth, head of the Climate Analysis Section at the National Center for Atmospheric Research and a prominent man-made-global-warming advocate, wrote in one of the discovered e-mails: "The fact is we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't."

Still other e-mails document how global-warming advocates tried to silence academic journals and professors who questioned whether there is significant man-made global warming.

We read and reread these CRU documents in stunned amazement. But rather than investigating all the evidence of so much academic fraud and intellectual wrongdoing, the University of East Anglia is denying there is a problem. Professor Trevor Davies, the school's pro vice chancellor for research, issued a defensive statement on Tuesday claiming: "The publication of a selection of the emails and data stolen from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) has led to some questioning of the climate science research published by CRU and others. There is nothing in the stolen material which indicates that peer-reviewed publications by CRU, and others, on the nature of global warming and related climate change are not of the highest-quality of scientific investigation and interpretation."

Unlike these global-warming propagandists, we expect research to be done in the open. Scientists who refuse to share their data, who plot to destroy information and fail to tell other scientists how their results were calculated should be severely punished.
nEiLgbBGKVk

[boycotteverything]

the death of climate change is greatly exaggerated. ...despite was the Moonies have to say.

gratuitous gore

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni/AlGoreNobelPrizeBlog.jpg

WTF... I can't add spoilers!

[Cogburn]

No, sir. You are confused.

This is the death of "global warming".

The climate always changes. It is called "weather".

[Chorlton]

No, sir. You are confused.
This is the death of "global warming".
The climate always changes. It is called "weather".

Another dumb-fuck pontification by the Amkon Simpleton

[boycotteverything]

sure. the world will probably always have weather- but it will also have assholes with their mediocre minds who deny the implications of Malthus.

[Cogburn]

Common sense begins to return to climate research for the first time in 20 years and this is a bad thing in your estimation?

Just in case you missed this part:
Academics around the world who have spent years working on papers using this data must be in full panic mode. By the admission of the global-warming theocracy's own self-appointed experts, the data they have been using is simply "garbage."

Al Gore's Nobel prize winning Powerpoint presentation is based on garbage climate models based on garbage data. That's not an exaggeration: Gore's data came nearly completely from the CRU papers.

I'm still wondering how both of the founders of Hoaxmasters missed this completely.

[boycotteverything]

well- you just keep on reading the Washington Times. when Denver is beachfront property in a few years i'll send a boat for ya.

[Chorlton]

common sense begins to return to climate research for the first time in 20 years and this is a bad thing in your estimation?

Just in case you missed this part:
academics around the world who have spent years working on papers using this data must be in full panic mode. By the admission of the global-warming theocracy's own self-appointed experts, the data they have been using is simply "garbage."

al gore's nobel prize winning powerpoint presentation is based on garbage climate models based on garbage data. That's not an exaggeration: Gore's data came nearly completely from the cru papers.

I'm still wondering how both of the founders of hoaxmasters missed this completely.

a presentation to cogburn

[Cogburn]

Link to the hacked data. Read it for yourself.

http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_emails,_data,_models,_1996-2009

Damning interview with Phil Jones, head of the CRU.


“It’s completely illegal for somebody to hack into
our system.”
In one email dating back to 1999, Jones appears
to talk of fudging scientific data on climate change
to “hide the decline”:

From: Phil Jones
To: ray bradley ,mann@[snipped], mhughes@
[snipped]
Subject: Diagram for WMO Statement
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:31:15 +0000
Cc: k.briffa@[snipped],t.osborn@[snipped]
Dear Ray, Mike and Malcolm,
Once Tim’s got a diagram here we’ll send that
either later today or first thing tomorrow. I’ve
just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding
in the real temps to each series for the last 20
years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd [sic] from1961
for Keith’s to hide the decline. Mike’s series got
the annual land and marine values while the
other two got April-Sept for NH land N of
20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the
estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C
wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with
data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998.
Thanks for the comments, Ray.
Cheers, Phil
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit

TGIF asked Jones about the controversial email
discussing hiding “the decline”, and Jones explained
he was not trying to mislead.
“No, that’s completely wrong. In the sense that
they’re talking about two different things here.
They’re talking about the instrumental data which
is unaltered – but they’re talking about proxy data
going further back in time, a thousand years, and
it’s just about how you add on the last few years,
because when you get proxy data you sample things
like tree rings and ice cores, and they don’t always
have the last few years. So one way is to add on the
instrumental data for the last few years.”
Jones told TGIF he had no idea what me meant
by using the words “hide the decline”.
“That was an email from ten years ago. Can you
remember the exact context of what you wrote ten
years ago?”
The other emails are described by skeptic commentators
as “explosive”, one talks of stacking the
peer-review process to prevent qualified skeptical
scientists from getting their research papers considered.

[hp]

Dear Hon Al Gore

Please return the climate change awards and prize monies we have sent to you. We are returning your power point lesson. We are sorry to have inconvenienced your power play efforts and therefore have also included a copy of Windows 7 for your pleasure.

PS. Your carbon credits have been revoked.

the world

[Chorlton]

Tell that to the polar bears and various other animals who live or migrate to the Poles.
Their homelands are shrinking so fast its almost unimaginable

[hp]

>Gore. Glut and Putz
>My overpaid lawyers
>Re: Amkon message, Today 8:01

>Can they do this to me?

Yes they can and they can also steal Bill's cookies. Reality bites doesn't Al.

B.G. Putz

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Tie in Thatcher Thatcher the milk snatcher somewhere and this fucker will be cooking on gas... greenhouse ones!

The old bag masterminded the whole she-bang, I'll bet she even found the "hole" in the ozone layer!

Fox

[skunk]

Thanks for the story cog.

[Chorlton]

Your arse kissing is astounding, but predictable

[boycotteverything]

oh my! the pissboy has awakened! smoke a doob and go back to sleep now. the day is still young and full of promise.

[skunk]

Thanks for the support guys. Make sure to check out Debbis Dildos as she's running a special sale for double sided jet black dildos. I'll let her know you'll be stopping over.

[Chorlton]

Thanks for the support guys. Make sure to check out Debbis Dildos as she's running a special sale for double sided jet black dildos. I'll let her know you'll be stopping over.

Is that the one you and Cog have up your arses ?

[skunk]

Your arse kissing is astounding, but predictable

Not ass kissing actually. I despise al gore and all he stands for.

I don't believe in global warming.

So its only logical I would like this story.

Climate change is constant.

[boycotteverything]

Climate change is constant. duh. so i see you've become a weather man.

[Chorlton]

Not ass kissing actually. I despise al gore and all he stands for..
But the OP was nothing to do with Gore.
It was an article from a UK newspaper

The climate of the world is changing faster than was to be expected.

I blame cigarette and dope smokers myself

[skunk]

The op may not be about gore directly. Regardless he is involved in this discussion as he has made himself the spokesperson for 'global warming' or as he calls it now 'climate change'.



The climate of the world is changing faster than was to be expected.


What does that even mean?

[boycotteverything]

I despise al gorehahahah he probably doesn't think much of you either.

[skunk]

On the contrary he has no idea who I am.

[boycotteverything]

he knows the world is full of pissboys and other assorted knownothings.

[skunk]

When you're done stuffing your face with gore semen let me know.

[Chorlton]

Just take a simple easy look at what is happening to the icecaps and the the equatorial regions of the Earth.
Yes climate change is normal, but not at the speed it is happening now.

[boycotteverything]

it's hard for the guy to see with that white hood on.

[skunk]

I have been watching quite closely. Some years the ice caps are thicker than others. Its not a constant ice melt.

Greenland for instance is losing a lot of land ice however.

That can be a problem for raising sea levels.

Sea ice is not much of a problem because when it melts it doesn't add to sea level (ice cube effect).

Do I think we're completely to blame like gore and his ilk does?

No.

That doesn't mean I'm not for reducing pollution and (most) of the other actions that go along with "preventing global warming" or climate change.

[Chorlton]

I have been watching quite closely. Some years the ice caps are thicker than others. Its not a constant ice melt.
No but the thickness is shrinking, faster than was expected.

[QUOTE]
Sea ice is not much of a problem because when it melts it doesn't add to sea level (ice cube effect).No but as the North pole melts it causes more cold freshwater to enter the sea, the possibility is that it may cause the Gulf stream to stop.



Do I think we're completely to blame like gore and his ilk does?
No.
So who caused the increase ?Its not seals farting, thats for sure.


That doesn't mean I'm not for reducing pollution and (most) of the other actions that go along with "preventing global warming" or climate change.

[boycotteverything]

The verdict is in on Al Gore! Hang the bitch!

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/kkk-judge.jpg

[Snow Crash]

Forgive me for broadsiding this rather amusing pissing contest, but I'd like to point out that this whole fucking Global Warming vs Global Cooling argument is a convenient distraction for some people who would pollute whatever climate change was occuring.

Humans pollute the Earth to dangerous levels. ANYONE, from EITHER camp, who chooses to ignore that fact in favour of rowing with the opposite side is a fucking moron, frankly. While we argue over this carbon economy, or whatever arseholic scheme being cooked up by devious politicos and their corporate masters, our planet is being damaged beyond all belief because of our obsolete technology and our ignorance which is propped up by corporate scumfucks who would lose money and power should 'that' technology ever be released.

Surely we would all be better off focusing on combatting pollution IN GENERAL rather than arguing the toss over Global Warming? Just an idea, cos I mean, I know some folks would rather procrastinate while the world burns, either to satisfy their arrogant ignorance, or to squeeze out a few more petro-dollars, but seriously, when will we as a species pull our fingers out and do something? When the air is so fucked our children come with respitory illnesses as standard? When the seas are so fucked that the fish become toxic to us? When the rapidly shrinking rainforests are gone, taking huge ecosystems with them, along with natural air processing?

And incidently, I know its "all about the scientists" but I am not sure people such as the Inuit are part of the great conspiracy when they say the ice is receeding at an alarming rate.

[skunk]

No but as the North pole melts it causes more cold freshwater to enter the sea, the possibility is that it may cause the Gulf stream to stop.

Yes that is a possibility, and we would have a new ice age. That's a more likely scenario than being cooked alive.

However, the planet is a marvelous sphere, capable of creating new conveyor belts.

[boycotteverything]

this whole fucking Global Warming vs Global Cooling argument is a convenient distraction for some people who would pollute whatever climate change was occuring.isn't that the point... use it up now- fuck the kids. they can find a new planet. how can there be so many trivial, stupid, nasty, greedy people on this forum? that's not a rhetorical question- more an observation.

[Snow Crash]

isn't that the point... use it up now- fuck the kids. they can find a new planet. how can there be so many trivial, stupid, nasty, greedy people on this forum? that's not a rhetorical question- more an observation.

Narcissism is the disease of Amkon, tovorich. But not just Amkon, its a disease of a large swathe of humanity. "Who gives a fuck about that issue?" then when it hits home "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG"

But by then, its always too late for them.

[Chorlton]

Narcissism is the disease of Amkon, tovorich. But not just Amkon, its a disease of a large swathe of humanity. "Who gives a fuck about that issue?" then when it hits home "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG"

But by then, its always too late for them.
Sort of like the 11/9 thing ?

What surprised me was that Americans were surprised. They thought they were somehow untouchable.

[boycotteverything]

..as evidenced by the ageist remarks that abound here. amkon- the home of the bulletproof. little respect for knowledge/ big respect for dope.

[skunk]

You don't get respect you earn it. You haven't earned mine. Chorlton has. Deal with it.

[boycotteverything]

hahahah i'm sure Chorton is thoroughly gratified by that endorsement.

[Chorlton]

You don't get respect you earn it. You haven't earned mine. Chorlton has. Deal with it.

I'm just a loveable soul

[boycotteverything]

*smooch*

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Fucking balance man.

What you take you must put back. Maybe not the same goes back, but something of equallity.

The world looks after us, we look after the world.

How hard is it to understand.

Too fucking hard that how hard it is... You're not you cunting chino's or your home smoked bacon (but I bet it's bloody good).

Fox

[boycotteverything]

What you take you must put back. Maybe not the same goes back, but something of quallity.fixt

we've taken the meat and returned the smoke. balance indeed... you're a wise man, Mr. Fox. the world would be best to listen to your glib truths. but then- you're a buck who wants a life for his beautiful joey. i think that accounts for your attitude. family is everything and everything is family.

[Snow Crash]

Fucking balance man.

What you take you must put back. Maybe not the same goes back, but something of equallity.

The world looks after us, we look after the world.

How hard is it to understand.

Too fucking hard that how hard it is... You're not you cunting chino's or your home smoked bacon (but I bet it's bloody good).

Fox

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world."

Materialism is a major factor in the shit storm that is brewing.

[boycotteverything]

Materialism is a major factor in the shit storm that is brewing. always has been. we live in a world where your soul is worth less than your car.

[Chorlton]

always has been. we live in a world where your soul is worth less than your car.
Not if its a Hillman Minx

[Lexion]

Replica.

[boycotteverything]

...owned by Cockburnt. he calls it a mustang.

[skunk]

You're on a roll today :rolleyes:

[Chorlton]

You're on a roll today :rolleyes:
You bringing up food again ?
Bacon Rolls ??
Which reminds me its nearly teatime

Beef in Oyster sauce methinks

[boycotteverything]

if the Fox does another drive by maybe he'll drop you off a beagle. much better compliment to oysters.

[Chorlton]

if the Fox does another drive by maybe he'll drop you off a beagle. much better compliment to oysters.
Oyster sauce dear
Nothing to do with Oysters, horrible slimy things

[boycotteverything]

oh shit, sorry. i forgot the chef is from Siam. but speaking of horrible slimy things- was there any need to bring skunk up again?

[century]

Yes... just in case it hasn't gotten through your turkey coma just yet, global warming is the largest hoax ever perpetrated.
Its not a hoax Cog..............


hRL9vcqT8-0

[hp]

The battle over climate change is just another money making activity. The proof is nothing is done other than giving paid speeches, books, papers to keep a job and create a carbon market.

Pulling money out of thin or thick air, depending on which side.

[Lexion]

Lead by example.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/Lexion07/white-house-christmas-tree-2.jpg

[century]

carpet baggers got a new brand new bag

[1972]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,577226,00.html?test=latestnews

It's all bullshit.
But Jesus is now in the closet and will not come out.
Fuck people are stupid and crazy.
Except BE, he knows everything.
(Even the gay shit)

[century]

Jesus is now in the closet and will not come out.
46

[Lexion]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/Lexion07/jesus_iron.jpg

:lol:

[hp]

She says she plans to keep the iron in a closet and buy a new one.She says she plans to put the iron on eBay and buy a new one.

Could be '72s avatar...

[Lexion]

Yeah, HP.

She's gonna sell that fucker,
sure as shit.

Sadly, someone will buy it.

[boycotteverything]

in all my years on this planet i've yet to use an iron. i bet that's something we share. hahahaha

[Cogburn]

Fucking balance man.

What you take you must put back. Maybe not the same goes back, but something of equallity.

The world looks after us, we look after the world.

How hard is it to understand.

Too fucking hard that how hard it is... You're not you cunting chino's or your home smoked bacon (but I bet it's bloody good).

Fox

Not only is that the fucking truth, it has ZERO to do with Al Gore, Greenpeace, "global warming" or fucking polar bears.

Climate scientists might have to admit they are wrong, but the thick headed true believer, eco-nazi's on the front lines will totally disregard the message, to which this thread stands in evidence. The goddamn knee-jerk geriatrics can't equate one without the other because they have been drinking the environmentalist kool-aid for far, far too long.

Maybe now that global warming is going into the crapper there might be some possibility for real science to indicate some real conservation and perservation methods.

Iron Eyes Cody didn't give two shits about global warming and neither should anyone else, and that doesn't mean we should trash the place, either.

http://www.hvchronic.com/volume_1/no_2/CryingIndian.jpg

Fuck your false dilemmas.

[Lexion]

Yep.

Even in the military, I used
a laundry service.

My wife irons, though.

I bet that's killing the environment.

Wait, there's an iron in environment.

Must be good for it, then.

[Chorlton]

Oh No
The world according to the pontificating Cogburn yet again
Total bollocks but whats new.

[Chorlton]

in all my years on this planet i've yet to use an iron. i bet that's something we share. hahahaha

You need to try
Extreme Ironing .

Ironing on top of a car or on asurfboard or whilst skydiving

Live life on the edge....extreme ironing

Google it and have a larf

[boycotteverything]

My wife irons, though.

I bet that's killing the environment.i long ago realized that the solution to the entire conundrum is simply to learn to love and respect wrinkles. be they on your shirt or on your face- they are earned. lex, tell your wife that little secret. and yes, little assaults do harm the environment.

[Chorlton]

i long ago realized that the solution to the entire conundrum is simply to learn to love and respect wrinkles. be they on your shirt or on your face- they are earned. lex, tell your wife that little secret. and yes, little assholes fart in the environment.
Fixt

[Cogburn]

Global warming and climate change are dead! Long live environmentalism!

Orchestrated peer review. Collusion of publishers. Destruction of the careers, and celebration of the death of intellectual opponents. Incomprehensibly mangled statistical analysis. Unquestionable ivory tower academic dictates. Rewriting history to validate false simulations. Criminal destruction of FOIA requested documentation.

All the hideous behaviors that CTs have always likened mainstream science, but such CTs never once suspected involved the global warming debate.

Delicious.

33891

[Cogburn]

Linked to Google cache due to high load issues.

Yet another Upside Down Mann out
by Jean S on November 27th, 2009

Science published today yet-another-Mann-et-al-reconstruction:

Michael E. Mann, Zhihua Zhang, Scott Rutherford, Raymond S. Bradley, Malcolm K. Hughes, Drew Shindell, Caspar Ammann, Greg Faluvegi, and Fenbiao N: Global Signatures and Dynamical Origins of the Little Ice Age and Medieval Climate Anomaly, Science 326 (5957), 1256. [DOI: 10.1126/science.1177303].

cache

Seems to me that Mann has re-discovered the Medieval Warm Period.

I had a quick look at the paper, SI, and the code. What seems to be done this time is that the proxy network of Mann et al (2008 ) is processed with a slightly modified screening of Mann et al (2008 ), and then the reconstruction is done with a slightly modified RegEM CFR of Mann et al (2007 )! Now to answer the questioncache that seems to be on everyone's lips: yes, Tiljander series are still used as inverted. This can be seen from the positive screening correlation values reported in the file 1209proxynames.xls. In fact, going quickly through the screening code, it seemed to me that they have really "moved on" from the screening employed in Mann et al (2008 ): only "two-sided test" is used!

%------------------------------------------------------------------
%% below is for selecting full/screened/1856-1925 screened/1926-1995 screened proxy-network
%% replacing "abs(z(4,i))>=0.165"/"abs(z(5,i))>=0.513" in line 75/84 with the followings for your expected proxy-network
%% abs(z(4,i))>=0 / abs(z(5,i))>=0 (full proxy-network)
%% abs(z(4,i))>=0.162 / abs(z(5,i))>=0.496 (screening over 1850-1995)
%% abs(z(6,i))>=0.195 / abs(z(7,i))>=0.602 (screening over 1896-1995)
%--

This means that if a proxy has a strong inverted correlation to the (two-pick?) local temperature, it gets picked - no matter what the physical interpretation is! Since RegEM doesn't care about the sign, it is now really so that the sign does not matter to them anymore. Anything goes!

I'm speechless.

http://i47.tinypic.com/x3d65s.jpg

[boycotteverything]

yeah. thank god for the googleborg, eh?

[Cogburn]

Hahaha... mixed blessing I guess.

I had to take out the cache link because vB mangled it.

[boycotteverything]

google the Malthusian garrote and receive this little gift- http://botcotteverything.blogspot.com/


This 'stimulus' regime will never succeed in reviving the tattered world economy. President Hoover tried the same thing in 1930. It failed then and it will fail now.

However, as a means of redistribution of wealth the results the program will be a spectacular and enduring success. What we are witnessing is the inevitable result of liberal republican democracy-- Socialism- wherein all increasingly scarce resources will be henceforth rationed. ‘From each in accord with his abilities and to each in regard to his needs’ is an idea whose time has now arrived.

And to those who mourn for the ‘productive’ sector of society it’s high time for them to accede to the truth that the real problem with the world economy is not lack of production but rather meaningless and destructive production. Entropic resolve. The overwhelming majority of the world's workers are engaged in transforming the earth into a vast strip-mine dedicated to producing abject shit for the benefit of those whom FDR called the 'economic royalists.' The famous graffiti at the Sorbonne during the New Paris Commune of 1968 will prove to be not only prescient, but will also serve as a warning: ‘Humanity will not be happy until the last capitalist is strung-up from the guts of the last bureaucrat.’


The foreshadowed New Revolution is quietly upon us. The Malthusian garrote, now tighted and drawn, has made it so.

Rage against the dying of the light.

[Cogburn]

That's thread worthy.

Kudos to you for actually posting the text and not just the link.

Kinda makes me a little sad that everyone chooses to share such wisdom on individual blogs as opposed to here where it can be debated and discussed.

[Mungodave]

From an Aussie perspective.....



Subject: FW: Global warming is bull I don't know who produced this but it does make you wonder - wo do you
believe........

It would not be the first time a government has deceived the masses!!!!!!!!!!

ETS is another tax.
It is equal to putting up the GST to 12.5%

Read the following analogy and you will realize the insignificance
of carbon dioxide as a weather controller.

Pass on to all in your address book including politicians and may be they will listen to
their constituents, rather than vested interest which stands to gain by the ETS.

Here's a practical way to understand Mr. Rudd's Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

Imagine 1 kilometre of atmosphere and we want to get rid of the carbon pollution in it
created by human activity. Let's go for a walk along it.


The first 770 metres are Nitrogen.
The next 210 metres are Oxygen.
That's 980 metres of the 1 kilometre. 20 metres to go.
The next 10 metres are water vapour. 10 metres left.
9 metres are argon. Just 1 more metre.
A few gases make up the first bit of that last metre.

The last 38 centimetres of the kilometre - that's carbon dioxide. A bit over one foot.
97% of that is produced by Mother Nature. It's natural.
Out of our journey of one kilometre, there are just 12 millimetres left.
Just over a centimetre - about half an inch.

That's the amount of carbon dioxide that global human activity puts into
the atmosphere.
And of those 12 millimetres Australia puts in 0.18 of a millimetre.
Less than the thickness of a hair. Out of a kilometre!
As a hair is to a kilometre - so is Australia's contribution to what Mr. Rudd calls
Carbon Pollution.
Imagine Brisbane's new Gateway Bridge, ready to be opened by Mr. Rudd.
It's been polished, painted and scrubbed by an army of workers till its 1 kilometre
length is surgically clean. Except that Mr. Rudd says we have a huge
problem, the bridge is polluted - there's a human hair on the roadway.
We'd laugh ourselves silly.

There are plenty of real pollution problems to worry about. It's hard to
imagine that Australia's contribution to carbon dioxide in the world's
atmosphere is one of the more pressing ones. And I can't believe that a
new tax on everything is the only way to blow that pesky hair away.

Pass this on quickly while the ETS is being debated in Federal Parliament.


Mungo

Where's my fkn avatar?

[boycotteverything]

Kinda makes me a little sad that everyone chooses to share such wisdom on individual blogs as opposed to here where it can be debated and discussed. __________________I've said nothing else for years here. well- aside from kicking skunk-the-punk's sorry ass now and then. i'm all about purpose in the last analysis.

[torbjon]

global warming vs global cooling... divide and conquer.
cosmically speaking, does it really matter How we and our children die? 'cause we Are gonna die...

"Warm it all up! Everything you got! C'mon you apes, you wanna live forever?"

jPE00A6b9TY

[Mungodave]

rghOI6fbsfU&feature=PlayList&p=18D2176A48429FDE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

[skunk]

I've said nothing else for years here. well- aside from kicking skunk-the-punk's sorry ass now and then. i'm all about purpose in the last analysis.

Hahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahaha

hahahhahahahahahhahaha

We must have vastly different definitions of what kicking someones ass means.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Lexion]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/Lexion07/midget.gif

[captainkiwi]

never mind that we are all going to pay for the ETS ....this we are told is going to be a disincentive to production of green house gasses by big business .....but wait not to stop them from producing green house gasses but to allow big bizo to keep on keeping on ......now concidering that them fucking glutous yanks are the biggest producers the most inefficiant producers of shit in the world bar non now you cunts want the rest of the world to foot the bill for your excesses past and present and beond if you get your way .....fucken wankers you are so far up your own asses...
v8big5QzToo

BE I thought you had a brain ....and now I see that you are brain washed by your cultural input .......when you me and the kids are taxed for the air we all breath and someone tells you when you can have your next gasp ....well sorry mate but then it will be late you will be fuck by a lie
itTnaBixWMQ

[Cogburn]

......now concidering that them fucking glutous yanks are the biggest producers the most inefficiant producers of shit in the world bar non now you cunts want the rest of the world to foot the bill for your excesses past and present and beond if you get your way .....fucken wankers you are so far up your own asses...

Ummm... that would be China. We just buy the worthless shit, and if you listen to some folks, we don't make anything anymore.

[captainkiwi]

Ummm... that would be China. We just buy the worthless shit, and if you listen to some folks, we don't make anything anymore.
No, not so..... china is actually reducing GHG as we speak with a stated aim of 40% reduction in coal pollution bye 2020 ...a good start by anyone's measure .... your government mean while is still dragging it's feet in all the way to with regard to developing a more sustainable model of consumption.
You fuckers are the largest consumers on the planet .....ergo the the biggest polluters...... even if by default ....you are the largest wasters of food on the planet on average you waste one quarter of all you buy.... you are the fattest people on the planet ...think about it dude
And just because you dont make shit in your own backyard anymore dont mean you ant responsible for its creation Cog.......USA are the biggest consumers of petrol in the world bar none
This is nothing to be proud of mate you have done naught but wage war in one form or another on so called perceived threats to world peace or prosperity ever since the end of ww2 .....sort your self's out
:beatdown:

[Cogburn]

First we're the "biggest producers of inefficient shit on the planet", then we are "the largest consumers on the planet, ergo the biggest polluters". Would you care to move the goal posts any further?

I bought a phone that is also an e-book reader, an MP3 player, and a handheld computer, rather than buy all those things separately. I buy 14 gallons of gas every 7-9 days. I don't make unnecessary car trips. I even pay more rent than necessary so that I don't have to drive as far to get to work or go shopping. I bought the car I bought to own a modern classic of automotive design, not as a status symbol. I buy as much of my food locally sourced as possible, which at this time is probably around 80%. I haven't waged war on anyone: I have no enemies.

I don't know who this "you" is that you keep talking about, because it's certainly not me.

[Chorlton]

I bought a phone that is also an e-book reader, an MP3 player, and a handheld computer, rather than buy all those things separately.
But you dont NEED those things. I have none of them other than the computers and exist very happily. By the way. During the day my main computer is run from a Large Solar cell.


I buy 14 gallons of gas every 7-9 days. I don't make unnecessary car trips.Dont buy 'gas', buy an older diesel car and run it on Veg oil. My regular drive is now a VW T4 van that runs on rape-seed Oil.


I even pay more rent than necessary so that I don't have to drive as far to get to work or go shopping.Dont pay rent, it contributes to capitalism. Buy, or build yourself.



I bought the car I bought to own a modern classic of automotive design, not as a status symbol.I built my favourite car myself,to get what I wanted, a Cobra Replica. 80% of it came from the old Donor car. Recycling is the way to go. I'll probably be converting it to LPG next year



I buy as much of my food locally sourced as possible, which at this time is probably around 80%.We grow probably 75% of all our veg, the rest is bartered from other growers, or at a pinch bought from Organic shops.


I haven't waged war on anyone: I have no enemies. Your country has on your behalf. You have billions of enemies.


I don't know who this "you" is that you keep talking about, because it's certainly not me.YOU is your average American and I hate to say it, your averag Brit and European. Excuses are easier than actually doing something

[captainkiwi]

The you is the American and it's total planetary impact. Not you Cog, your Culture it's per capita consumption.

[century]

But you dont NEED those things. I have none of them other than the computers and exist very happily. By the way. During the day my main computer is run from a Large Solar cell.
Dont buy 'gas', buy an older diesel car and run it on Veg oil. My regular drive is now a VW T4 van that runs on rape-seed Oil.
Dont pay rent, it contributes to capitalism. Buy, or build yourself.

I built my favourite car myself,to get what I wanted, a Cobra Replica. 80% of it came from the old Donor car. Recycling is the way to go. I'll probably be converting it to LPG next year

We grow probably 75% of all our veg, the rest is bartered from other growers, or at a pinch bought from Organic shops.
Your country has on your behalf. You have billions of enemies.
YOU is your average American and I hate to say it, your averag Brit and European. Excuses are easier than actually doing something



Did you get this response style from JL ?:eek:

[Chorlton]

Did you get this response style from JL ?:eek:

What is it that you cant comprehend.
I take each statement and reply to it. Its the logical intelligent way.

But I did hear the WHOOOOOSHING sound as you read it.

[Cogburn]

Dont buy 'gas', buy an older diesel car and run it on Veg oil. My regular drive is now a VW T4 van that runs on rape-seed Oil.

I built my favourite car myself,to get what I wanted, a Cobra Replica. 80% of it came from the old Donor car. Recycling is the way to go. I'll probably be converting it to LPG next year

We grow probably 75% of all our veg, the rest is bartered from other growers, or at a pinch bought from Organic shops.

Your country has on your behalf. You have billions of enemies.

YOU is your average American and I hate to say it, your averag Brit and European. Excuses are easier than actually doing something
I buy what I buy because it is available to me. You may have different things available to you. My claim is that I am an individual, but I wouldn't expect one of her majesty's subjects to understand what it is to live in a nation of individuals.

Although I don't suppose we could discuss the amount of consumerism you have participated in with your your musical predilections. How many guitars do you/have you owned? How much recording equipment? How much electricity does that use?

Do you have a portable music player: CD, tape, MP3, or otherwise? A cell phone? A laptop? A GPS? A home stereo system? I paid $99 for all of them in one device. It's called responsible consumerism. It's fun: you get what you want and don't waste literal tons of metals and plastics in the process.

When I'm your age, perhaps I'll be of the position that you are in now, however I'd be willing to bet that I am now more responsible and aware of my overall impact on the world than you were then.

Oh... and I did say "modern classic". Ford has had 3 years when the Mustang was actually something worth owning for the first time in 30 years. I paid $30,000 now instead of $80,000 in 20 years.


Dont pay rent, it contributes to capitalism. Buy, or build yourself.
That is the dumbest thing you've said in hours.

[Chorlton]

I buy what I buy because it is available to me. You may have different things available to you. My claim is that I am an individual, but I wouldn't expect one of her majesty's subjects to understand what it is to live in a nation of individuals.

You simply cant enter into a rational discusion without resorting to childish mentality can you?


Although I don't suppose we could discuss the amount of consumerism you have participated in with your your musical predilections. How many guitars do you/have you owned? How much recording equipment? How much electricity does that use? We are talking of present tense, NOT past tense. Hindsight is a wonderfull thing isnt it?




That is the dumbest thing you've said in hours.So building your own house is dumb?
We built a friends house from Straw, in France last year. it took 4 of us around 6 weeks. he now has an incredibly eco friendly house built from straw.

But as usual you prefer to live by Cogburns view of the world. So far removed from reality its hilarious.

[Cogburn]

But as usual you prefer to live by Cogburns view of the world. So far removed from reality its hilarious.
Yet here I am, successful, content, and loved and respected by all those that know me.

My reality is not only fully functional, it is fantastic and awe inspiring.

You may not have the same goals, so your methods may vary.

[Chorlton]

Yet here I am, successful, content, and loved and respected by all those that know me.
Successfull is totaly relative. Your success isnt my success.

I learned many years ago that many of those who said they cared loved and respected me were liars and that went for probably everyone. Humans are fickle, emotions even more so.



My reality is not only fully functional, it is fantastic and awe inspiring.Reality is relative.



You may not have the same goals, so your methods may vary.I have no goals. I have achieved everything I ever wanted to do except perfect my smoked salmon recipe.

The one desire left to me now is to help and assist my daughter to her goals.

[Cogburn]

Successfull is totaly relative. Your success isnt my success.

...

Humans are fickle, emotions even more so.

Reality is relative.

I have achieved everything I ever wanted to do except perfect my smoked salmon recipe.

The one desire left to me now is to help and assist my daughter to her goals.

I see. You just feel compelled to portray yourself as someone deserving of such, but anyone else attempting to achieve the same through methods that differ or disagree with your world view are automatically wrong.

The world is a great, big, beautiful place and one size does not fit all.

I guess that means you can take the rest of your opinions about me and go fuck yourself.

:thumright:

[Chorlton]

I see. You just feel compelled to portray yourself as someone deserving of such,
I dont portray myself as anything, that I respond to stupid posts doesnt demonstrate anyone deserving of anything.




but anyone else attempting to achieve the same through methods that differ or disagree with your world view are automatically wrong.
The world is a great, big, beautiful place and one size does not fit all.
I guess that means you can take the rest of your opinions about me and go fuck yourself.


You really havent quite grasped the to-ing and fro-ing of Forum debate yet have you?

[century]

:beatdown:

[Cogburn]

I didn't realize that constant ad hominem insults in thread after thread after thread are what you considered forum to-ing and fro-ing.

Usually I consider that to include something of a discussion of facts and evidence, combined with a well considered opposing opinion or two.

Forgive me for nearly missing it when you actually came close to accomplishing the latter.

[century]

Son, no more weed in the jet now u almost killed us

http://www.airportjournals.com/Photos/0511/X/0511004_2.jpg

[Chorlton]

I didn't realize that constant ad hominem insults in thread after thread after thread are what you considered forum to-ing and fro-ing.
Then why do you indulge in it so much?. You started it, remember? If you dont like shit being thrown at you then cease and desist from doing it yourself. I responded in a normal and intelligent manner this morning yet you couldnt resst starting those Ad-Hominem attacks you hate so much, yet you still cant see it?.
When someone throws shit at me I throw it back. Dont like it? then dont start it.


Usually I consider that to include something of a discussion of facts and evidence, combined with a well considered opposing opinion or two.Only when those facts dont clash with your facts


Forgive me for nearly missing it when you actually came close to accomplishing the latter.I forgive you, you are incapable of seeing any opinion other than your own.

[Cogburn]

:lol:

You are so cute. If you didn't exist I'd have to invent you.

[Chorlton]

Truth hurts dont it?

[Cogburn]

Well yeah... but the more you try to pin me down the further you actually get from reality.

The fun part is watching you continue to try.

[Chorlton]

Well yeah... but the more you try to pin me down the further you actually get from reality.
The fun part is watching you continue to try.

Theres your problem. The illusion that you think I'm trying to 'pin you down'
I'm doing nothing of the sort.
I asked a simple question that you are scared to answer, it might have revealed something about why you do what you do.

Failure to answer it simply leaves people to make their own decisions about your behaviour. I doubt you get out a lot, I doubt you have travelled extensively. That is based solely upon responses you have made to various posts over the last few years.

But thats your problem, not mine.

[Cogburn]

Well, I've not been on AmKon for a single year, much less years, so we'll assume you meant "months".

I am who I am. I've got no interest in answering anything personal about myself that I choose not to, just as you do not.

You can make whatever judgments in character about that you wish, but understand it doesn't mean that a single one of them is even close to the truth.

Some day we'll split a beer and we can both judge for ourselves.

[Chorlton]

Some day we'll split a beer and we can both judge for ourselves.

That will NEVER happen.

[Jackinthebox]

That will NEVER happen.

Oh come on now. Cog is my fuckin nemesis here but I would still have a pint with the pie hole. And I dare say, that face to face, we might actually wind up as friends. The internet and typed words do not allow for human dynamic and subtelties.

[Chorlton]

My main reason for saying that is because its doubtfull I will ever return to the USA. Several reasons, the main one being I dont like the US government fingerprinting and photographing me and demanding I have a Biometric passport to support their paranoia.
The other reason is simple. Theres really nothing there that interests me anymore. I was once interested in taking a look at Dulce, but the more I read the more I'm totally convinced there's nothing there.

[Jackinthebox]

My main reason for saying that is because its doubtfull I will ever return to the USA. Several reasons, the main one being I dont like the US government fingerprinting and photographing me and demanding I have a Biometric passport to support their paranoia.
The other reason is simple. Theres really nothing there that interests me anymore. I was once interested in taking a look at Dulce, but the more I read the more I'm totally convinced there's nothing there.

For fuck sake man, fuck Dulce, come to NY and get a slice.

[Chorlton]

For fuck sake man, fuck Dulce, come to NY and get a slice.
I despise NY with an anger equalled only to my hate of London.

About the only capital city in the world I'm happy in is Paris. dont know why, but I always feel at home there

[Jackinthebox]

I despise NY with an anger equalled only to my hate of London.

About the only capital city in the world I'm happy in is Paris. dont know why, but I always feel at home there

Fag, oh sorry, queer bait. Wouldnt mnake much sense to call you a Marlboro. Lol

[Chorlton]

Sorry youve lost me there.

[Jackinthebox]

Sorry youve lost me there.

Fag, cigarette, queer, Paris.

OKay, it was a stetch.

[Chorlton]

What makes you think Paris is queer? Its actually the opposite. OK the Bois de Boulogne is full of gays giving blowjobs for a Tenner, but its a fascinating city.
Archaeology,culture and history all around you. Even Jim Morrison liked it so much he's buried there.

[1972]

Biometric what?
Nonsense.
There is nothing biometric about my passport.

I don't like my government either. Well most of it, some of it actually works. I hate the EU but I still want to move to Ireland and die in the Bleeding Horse. Fuck, I wouldn't ever go to London. Talk about being on TV no matter where you are. Now that is paranoid.

[Jackinthebox]

What makes you think Paris is queer? Its actually the opposite. OK the Bois de Boulogne is full of gays giving blowjobs for a Tenner, but its a fascinating city.
Archaeology,culture and history all around you. Even Jim Morrison liked it so much he's buried there.

I was trying very hard to be the uncultured American douche from NY.

But yes, truth be told, I would love to see Paris. And London as well for that matter. I hear good things about London. Expensive as fuck, but a nice city for a Yank to spend a few semesters.

[Jackinthebox]

Biometric what?
Nonsense.
There is nothing biometric about my passport.

I don't like my government either. Well most of it, some of it actually works. I hate the EU but I still want to move to Ireland and die in the Bleeding Horse. Fuck, I wouldn't ever go to London. Talk about being on TV no matter where you are. Now that is paranoid.

More cameras than any other city in the world I would venture a guess. But what do you expect from the same city that invented the modern police force as we know it?

I don't know about biometrics, but taking your shoes off to fly is fuckin retardville.

[Chorlton]

Biometric what?
Nonsense.
There is nothing biometric about my passport.
Well you need one to go to the USA



Fuck, I wouldn't ever go to London. Talk about being on TV no matter where you are. Now that is paranoid.

No its paranoid to worry about it. I dont and nor does anyone else.

[Chorlton]

I was trying very hard to be the uncultured American douche from NY.

But yes, truth be told, I would love to see Paris. And London as well for that matter. I hear good things about London. Expensive as fuck, but a nice city for a Yank to spend a few semesters.

The problem with London for me is the old, Familiarity breeds contempt.
Same as NY.

[Chorlton]

More cameras than any other city in the world I would venture a guess. But what do you expect from the same city that invented the modern police force as we know it?

I don't know about biometrics, but taking your shoes off to fly is fuckin retardville.

Taking your shoes off and wearing tight socks that go up your calves on a plane could save your life

[Jackinthebox]

Taking your shoes off and wearing tight socks that go up your calves on a plane could save your life

Okay, you got me. Explain.

[Chorlton]

Okay, you got me. Explain.
One of the pitfalls of long haul flights is DVT or Deep Vein Thrombosis, tight knee length socks can help prevent this.
You should take shoes off on a flight as ankles are prone to swelling. Its the first thing I always do, take my shoes off.

[1972]

One of the pitfalls of long haul flights is DVT or Deep Vein Thrombosis, tight knee length socks can help prevent this.
You should take shoes off on a flight as ankles are prone to swelling. Its the first thing I always do, take my shoes off.

You're are cunt and thats stupid.

[Chorlton]

You're are cunt and thats stupid.
You are a sheep fucking simpleton

Such an astounding amount of ignorance on this forum from uneducated fuckwits

You're proably another of the pricks who thinks secondhand smoke isnt dangerous as well? Prick

http://www.traveldoctor.co.uk/flights.htm
http://www.yourhealthbase.com/DVT.htm
http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publichealth/Healthprotection/Bloodsafety/DVT/DH_4123480
http://www.nathnac.org/pro/factsheets/trav_dvt.htm

How many more pages do you want, or can you even read?.

[boycotteverything]

But you dont NEED those things. I have none of them other than the computers and exist very happily. By the way. During the day my main computer is run from a Large Solar cell.
Dont buy 'gas', buy an older diesel car and run it on Veg oil. My regular drive is now a VW T4 van that runs on rape-seed Oil.
Dont pay rent, it contributes to capitalism. Buy, or build yourself.

I built my favourite car myself,to get what I wanted, a Cobra Replica. 80% of it came from the old Donor car. Recycling is the way to go. I'll probably be converting it to LPG next year

We grow probably 75% of all our veg, the rest is bartered from other growers, or at a pinch bought from Organic shops.
Your country has on your behalf. You have billions of enemies.
YOU is your average American and I hate to say it, your averag Brit and European. Excuses are easier than actually doing something fuck the lot of you. i haven't taken a piss since April.

[Chorlton]

fuck the lot of you. i haven't taken a piss since April.
I always said you were all wind and piss

[Foxtrot Oscar]

I'm guessing DVT never made it across the pond.

Saying that when a septic tank explodes on a plane, it's like "Now we can sell 2 more normal people tickets".

British English - DVT Deep Vien Thrombosis

American English - EFB Exploding Fat Bastard

It's all the same, only the names are changed...

*drives off in to the sunset*

Fox

[1972]

I still trying to get past how I am not supposed to let thousands of CCTV's watching me scratch my balls is not supposed to bother me. It's sort of like those people that don't have a problem with the government(s) listening in on anyone's phone conversations. Saying things like, "Well I do not have anything to hide." It isn't the point whether or not there is something to hide, the point is that just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. Since when did any government, since the beginning of time, have the common persons best interests at heart?

Hopefully you didn't stroke out while reading this.

[Chorlton]

I still trying to get past how I am not supposed to let thousands of CCTV's watching scratch my balls is not supposed to bother me. It's sort of like those people that don't have a problem with the government(s) listening in on anyone's phone conversations. Saying things like, "Well I do not have anything to hide." It isn't the point whether or not there is something to hide, the point is that just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. Since when did any government, since the beginning of time, have the common persons best insterest at heart?
Hopefully you didn't stroke out while reading this.

Well most of us Brits arent worried about it, but your concern is noted and found touching, if a tad simplistic.

[1972]

Well most of us Brits arent worried about it, but your concern is noted and found touching, if a tad simplistic.

I thought it was pretty well quantified and concise.:thumright:

[Chorlton]

Not really. It would seem nearly everyone in the world is worried about the cameras in the UK except the people of the UK.
We just get on with our lives.
By the way
The nearest camera to me is 35 miles away, which in the UK is a long way.

[1972]

Not really. It would seem nearly everyone in the world is worried about the cameras in the UK except the people of the UK.
We just get on with our lives.
By the way
The nearest camera to me is 35 miles away, which in the UK is a long way.

I believe I said London in the other post and NOT the entire UK.
Unless of course London now stretches from coast to coast? My bad.

[Chorlton]

London is a tiny place. It would surprise you

[boycotteverything]

London is an invention of Hollywood. They needed a backdrop for those black and white movies full of stiff people speaking in indecipherable accents with their hands in the pockets of their dinner jackets.

[Chorlton]

We just speak like that to confuse you peasant halfbreeds

[1972]

Go and try to talk to a Newfie once. Then you will appreciate the different British accents. Fuck, it worse than Pikey.

[Snow Crash]

...you couldnt resst starting those Ad-Hominem attacks you hate so much, yet you still cant see it?

Accusing people of using 'Ad Hominem' shit in thier responses to his posts is basically Cog's version of ATS fucktards shouting "DENY IGNORANCE" when their back is to the wall.

You might as well ask dogs to stop sniffing other dogs' arseholes.

[Snow Crash]

Oh come on now. Cog is my fuckin nemesis here but I would still have a pint with the pie hole. And I dare say, that face to face, we might actually wind up as friends. The internet and typed words do not allow for human dynamic and subtelties.

Hahahaha... nice to see you trying to reach out, Jack.

[GeneralStriker]

the kinder, gentler jack emerges...

[Cogburn]

... and Snow Crash still can't figure out why the big kids ignore him when they start to play.

[GeneralStriker]

scroll back in this thread for your own shame.

[Cogburn]

Trash talking is super-easy when the object of your affections goes to sleep.

The shame isn't mine.

[Snow Crash]

... and Snow Crash still can't figure out why the big kids ignore him when they start to play.

Hahahahaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh......... man, its getting easier to make you fail, Cawkburn.

Incidently, I wouldn't class you as anyone worth getting worked up about. It's just fun to kick you, because you take yourself so damn seriously.

[Lexion]

Fuck, Snow.

You're still awake ?

[Snow Crash]

Fuck, Snow.

You're still awake ?

Snow never sleeps, no he does not 'twitch'

[Lexion]

Must suck.

I enjoy sleep.

[Alessandra]

Trash talking is super-easy when the object of your affections goes to sleep.

The shame isn't mine.


Wut?

[Lexion]

Leave the "?" off.

More poignent.

God, I fucked up that spelling.

[Alessandra]

ok

And I reiterate

wut

[Lexion]

wut

[Alessandra]

in da butt?

[Lexion]

werks

[Alessandra]

sorry, exit only.

[Snow Crash]

wut


wut

in the butt?

[Lexion]

Only Chii.

[Alessandra]

in the butt?

Less than three.

[Snow Crash]

Less than three.

Less than three indeed

[Alessandra]

tee hee

[Lexion]

Damn dude. I truly feel sorry for ya.

[Alessandra]

its not like that lex

[skunk]

A related story:

Pretending the climate email leak isn't a crisis won't make it go away (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2009/nov/25/monbiot-climate-leak-crisis-response)



I have seldom felt so alone. Confronted with crisis, most of the environmentalists I know have gone into denial. The emails hacked from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/), they say, are a storm in a tea cup, no big deal, exaggerated out of all recognition. It is true that climate change deniers have made wild claims which the material can't possibly support (the end of global warming, the death of climate science). But it is also true that the emails are very damaging (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/nov/23/global-warming-leaked-email-climate-scientists).

The response of the greens and most of the scientists I know is profoundly ironic, as we spend so much of our time confronting other people's denial. Pretending that this isn't a real crisis isn't going to make it go away. Nor is an attempt to justify the emails with technicalities. We'll be able to get past this only by grasping reality, apologising where appropriate and demonstrating that it cannot happen again.

It is true that much of what has been revealed could be explained as the usual cut and thrust of the peer review process, exacerbated by the extraordinary pressure the scientists were facing from a denial industry determined to crush them. One of the most damaging emails was sent by the head of the climatic research unit, Phil Jones. He wrote "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"

One of these papers which was published in the journal Climate Research turned out to be so badly flawed that the scandal resulted in the resignation of the editor-in-chief. Jones knew that any incorrect papers by sceptical scientists would be picked up and amplified by climate change deniers funded by the fossil fuel industry, who often – as I documented in my book Heat (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/11/07/heat/) – use all sorts of dirty tricks to advance their cause.

Even so, his message looks awful. It gives the impression of confirming a potent meme circulated by those who campaign against taking action on climate change: that the IPCC process is biased. However good the detailed explanations may be, most people aren't going to follow or understand them. Jones's statement, on the other hand, is stark and easy to grasp.

In this case you could argue that technically he has done nothing wrong. But a fat lot of good that will do. Think of the MPs' expenses scandal: complaints about stolen data, denials and huffy responses achieved nothing at all. Most of the MPs could demonstrate that technically they were innocent: their expenses had been approved by the Commons office. It didn't change public perceptions one jot. The only responses that have helped to restore public trust in Parliament are humility, openness and promises of reform.

When it comes to his handling of Freedom of Information requests, Professor Jones might struggle even to use a technical defence. If you take the wording literally, in one case he appears to be suggesting that emails subject to a request be deleted (http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=891&filename=1212063122.txt), which means that he seems to be advocating potentially criminal activity. Even if no other message had been hacked, this would be sufficient to ensure his resignation as head of the unit.

I feel desperately sorry for him: he must be walking through hell. But there is no helping it; he has to go, and the longer he leaves it, the worse it will get. He has a few days left in which to make an honourable exit. Otherwise, like the former Speaker of the House of Commons, Michael Martin, he will linger on until his remaining credibility vanishes, inflicting continuing damage to climate science.

Some people say that I am romanticising science, that it is never as open and honest as the Popperian ideal. Perhaps. But I know that opaqueness and secrecy are the enemies of science. There is a word for the apparent repeated attempts to prevent disclosure revealed in these emails: unscientific.

The crisis has been exacerbated by the university's handling of it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2009/nov/23/leaked-email-climate-change), which has been a total trainwreck: a textbook example of how not to respond. RealClimate reports (http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack/) that "We were made aware of the existence of this archive last Tuesday morning when the hackers attempted to upload it to RealClimate, and we notified CRU of their possible security breach later that day." In other words, the university knew what was coming three days before the story broke. As far as I can tell, it sat like a rabbit in the headlights, waiting for disaster to strike.

When the emails hit the news on Friday morning, the university appeared completely unprepared. There was no statement, no position, no one to interview. Reporters kept being fobbed off while CRU's opponents landed blow upon blow on it. When a journalist I know finally managed to track down Phil Jones, he snapped "no comment" and put down the phone. This response is generally taken by the media to mean "guilty as charged".
When I got hold of him on Saturday, his answer was to send me a pdf called "WMO statement on the status of the global climate in 1999". Had I a couple of hours to spare I might have been able to work out what the heck this had to do with the current crisis, but he offered no explanation.

By then he should have been touring the TV studios for the past 36 hours, confronting his critics, making his case and apologising for his mistakes. Instead, he had disappeared off the face of the Earth. Now, far too late, he has given an interview to the Press Association (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/24/climate-professor-leaked-emails-uea), which has done nothing to change the story.

The handling of this crisis suggests that nothing has been learnt by climate scientists in this country from 20 years of assaults on their discipline. They appear to have no idea what they're up against or how to confront it. Their opponents might be scumbags, but their media strategy is exemplary.

The greatest tragedy here is that despite many years of outright fabrication, fraud and deceit on the part of the climate change denial industry, documented in James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore's brilliant new book Climate Cover-up, it is now the climate scientists who look bad. By comparison to his opponents, Phil Jones is pure as the driven snow. Hoggan and Littlemore have shown how fossil fuel industries have employed "experts" to lie, cheat and manipulate on their behalf. The revelations in their book (as well as in Heat and in Ross Gelbspan's book The Heat Is On (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heat-Climate-Crisis-Cover-up-Prescription/dp/0738200255)) are 100 times graver than anything contained in these emails.

But the deniers' campaign of lies, grotesque as it is, does not justify secrecy and suppression on the part of climate scientists. Far from it: it means that they must distinguish themselves from their opponents in every way. No one has been as badly let down by the revelations in these emails as those of us who have championed the science. We should be the first to demand that it is unimpeachable, not the last.

[skunk]

And another:

Rigging a climate 'consensus' (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703499404574559630382048494.html?m od=googlenews_wsj)


The climatologists at the center of the leaked email and document scandal have taken the line that it is all much ado about nothing. Yes, the wording of their messages was unfortunate, but they insist this in no way undermines the underlying science. They're ignoring the damage they've done to public confidence in the arbiters of climate science.

"What they've done is search through stolen personal emails—confidential between colleagues who often speak in a language they understand and is often foreign to the outside world," Penn State's Michael Mann told Reuters Wednesday. Mr. Mann added that this has made "something innocent into something nefarious."

Phil Jones, director of the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, from which the emails were lifted, is singing from the same climate hymnal. "My colleagues and I accept that some of the published emails do not read well. I regret any upset or confusion caused as a result. Some were clearly written in the heat of the moment, others use colloquialisms frequently used between close colleagues," he said this week.

We don't doubt that Mr. Jones would have phrased his emails differently if he expected them to end up in the newspaper. He's right that it doesn't look good that his May 2008 email to Mr. Mann regarding the U.N.'s Fourth Assessment Report said "Mike, Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?" Mr. Mann says he didn't delete any such emails, but the point is that Mr. Jones wanted them hidden.

The furor over these documents is not about tone, colloquialisms or whether climatologists are nice people. The real issue is what the messages say about the way the much-ballyhooed scientific consensus on global warming was arrived at, and how a single view of warming and its causes is being enforced. The impression left by the correspondence among Messrs. Mann and Jones and others is that the climate-tracking game has been rigged from the start.

According to this privileged group, only those whose work has been published in select scientific journals, after having gone through the "peer-review" process, can be relied on to critique the science. And sure enough, any challenges from critics outside this clique are dismissed and disparaged.

This September, Mr. Mann told a New York Times reporter in one of the leaked emails that: "Those such as [Stephen] McIntyre who operate almost entirely outside of this system are not to be trusted." Mr. McIntyre is a retired Canadian businessman who checks the findings of climate scientists and often publishes the mistakes he finds on his Web site, Climateaudit.org. He holds the rare distinction of having forced Mr. Mann to publish a correction to one of his more famous papers.

As anonymous reviewers of choice for certain journals, Mr. Mann & Co. had considerable power to enforce the consensus, but it was not absolute, as they discovered in 2003. Mr. Mann noted in a March 2003 email, after the journal "Climate Research" published a paper not to Mr. Mann's liking, that "This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not publishing in the 'peer-reviewed literature'. Obviously, they found a solution to that—take over a journal!"

Mr. Mann went on to suggest that the journal itself be blackballed: "Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board." In other words, keep dissent out of the respected journals. When that fails, redefine what constitutes a respected journal to exclude any that publish inconvenient views.

A more thoughtful response to the emails comes from Mike Hulme, another climate scientist at the University of East Anglia, as reported by a New York Times blogger:

"This event might signal a crack that allows for processes of re-structuring scientific knowledge about climate change. It is possible that some areas of climate science has become sclerotic. It is possible that climate science has become too partisan, too centralized. The tribalism that some of the leaked emails display is something more usually associated with social organization within primitive cultures; it is not attractive when we find it at work inside science."

The response from the defenders of Mr. Mann and his circle has been that even if they did disparage doubters and exclude contrary points of view, theirs is still the best climate science. The proof for this is circular. It's the best, we're told, because it's the most-published and most-cited—in that same peer-reviewed literature. The public has every reason to ask why they felt the need to rig the game if their science is as indisputable as they claim.

[Chorlton]

Well spotted skunk
Nice articles.
I think there are the 'rabid, frothing at the mouth' zealots on both sides of this argument. But accelerated Global Warning is a fact. Its that simple.
Gore didnt help things, neither did these scientists but what they have done is focus peoples attentions a little more.
Sometime, we have to start looking after the planet that looks after us. I dont think even the most vehement anti climate change person would disagree with that

[boycotteverything]

Well spotted dick
Nice articles.
I think there are the 'rabid, frothing at the mouth' zealots on both sides of this argument. But accelerated Global Warning is a fact. Its that simple.
Gore didnt help things, neither did these scientists but what they have done is focus peoples attentions a little more.
Sometime, we have to start looking after the planet that looks after us. I dont think even the most vehement anti climate change person would disagree with that
As one of those frothers on the abrupt climate change side i disagree that there are actually two legitimate sides at all. Overpopulation and overproduction have changed the planet's climate, air quality and prospects for survival. Of course Exxon and BP will continue to blow denialist smoke up our asses by funding these mendacious opposition groups. The only wonder is that some people can be so invested in their destructive behavior that they blatantly support these creeps. There is no-longer any doubt that the planet is on the verge of destruction and the futures of our own children are imperiled. And thank you Al Gore for popularizing that truth.

[skunk]

This is an opinion/blog from telegraph:

Climate change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our generation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html)

News story:

Climategate: University of East Anglia U-turn in climate change row (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/copenhagen-climate-change-confe/6678469/Climategate-University-of-East-Anglia-U-turn-in-climate-change-row.html)


The U-turn by the university follows a week of controversy after the emergence of hundreds of leaked emails, "stolen" by hackers and published online, triggered claims that the academics had massaged statistics.

In a statement welcomed by climate change sceptics, the university said it would make all the data accessible as soon as possible, once its Climatic Research Unit (CRU) had negotiated its release from a range of non-publication agreements.

I may have found the "U-Turn" chorlton had been talking about a few weeks ago.


Related story:


inquiry into stolen climate e-mails (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8383713.stm)

[boycotteverything]

I may have found the "U-Turn" chorlton had been talking about a few weeks ago.source? (you fucking wanker...)

[skunk]

You'd think a hoax would have you up in arms, but in this case not a peep?

Interesting.


source? (you fucking wanker...)

Learn to read.

[boycotteverything]

you read one piece and that's all you need to make up your mind? take a look around you. as alexander pope said- 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.'

[skunk]

I'm not convinced humans are 100% to blame for "climate change". Some planet in the solar system are undergoing a warming period, some are cooling.

I don't like politicians butting themselves into the debate for profit.

I try to live as lightly on the planet as I possibly can, but I could definitely be doing a lot better.

My ideal world would be something along the lines of Thomas Jefferson's agrarian paradise, minus the slaves.

[Lexion]

The entire solar system ?

wtf

That sounds so.....so.....GLP.

[skunk]

I am an environmental studies major, I have been following climate change the entire time I've been a student.

When's the last time you took a climate change seminar with a guest speaker at every class during the semester?

[skunk]

The entire solar system ?

wtf

That sounds so.....so.....GLP.

It has been covered thoroughly elsewhere.

The entire solar system is not warming. Some planets are cooling, some are warming, not necessarily linked to solar flare activity.

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html)

Pluto warming article from 2002 (http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/pluto.html)

Pluto warming 2002 (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_021009.html)

[boycotteverything]

I am an environmental studies major,who works the evening shift at quickie mart.

[captainkiwi]

I'm not convinced humans are 100% to blame for "climate change". The entire solar system is undergoing a warming period.

I don't like politicians butting themselves into the debate for profit.

I try to live as lightly on the planet as I possibly can, but I could definitely be doing a lot better.

We all see that we need to make changes to the impact we have on the planet .....but what sickens me is that Politicians only want to tax us all more so that big bizo can go on producing not reducing. The whole model for change is so fucked up that it will do exactly zero to slow or halt pollution. Here in NZ the plan is to tax us all more so that big bizo can carry on unchecked into the foreseeable future with no real reduction what so ever in carbon emissions for the biggest emitters ........until we come up with a model that addresses the total output of emissions world wide there is no hope for real change in the way we all live and breed on this planet we are fucked ......so lets just tax it and that will solve it ........OK so they are calling the planed ETS a disincentive to manufacture bullshit it is just a gilt edged tax scheme to plunder the workers into early graves ......fuck

[boycotteverything]

SKUNK the JUNK Says Global Warming a Fraud

BE News Extra edition.

It can now be reported that Environmental Studies Maven, Skunk-Junk has proved that global warming is a hoax. Our expert, who is the night time help at the Ashville Quickie Mart reports that the sales of his much loved Slurpees has fallen by more than 5% in the last two years. This, according to the Junkman, is incontrovertible proof that his customers are cooling due to the effects of Solar System Cooling. He further states that the GLP research team has established that the ambient daytime temperature of Pluto has declined by slightly less than 2 degrees since 1997 thereby further proving his theory.

More on this hot story as it develops...

[skunk]

Now its global warming? I thought it was climate change.

[Lexion]

Global Warming is so 90's.

Climate Change, we can
believe in.

[boycotteverything]

Solar System Warming is the wave of the future! Get in the ballgame, Lex.

[Lexion]

Fuck.

I'm still in the parking lot
tail gating.

[boycotteverything]

It seems even our resident expert is confused.
Now its global warming? I thought it was climate change. Can it be that the Slurpee theory is in doubt? We report/ you decide.

[Lexion]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa20/Lexion07/solar20slurpee.gif

[captainkiwi]

Humanity tax ......next we will be running out of air due to the over production of hot air by all of the climate change , global warming drips under pressure aka EXPERTS
TAX TAX TAX TAX TAX that will fix it

[captainkiwi]

we are at war and the new enemy is all of us

[Lexion]

The enemy has always been us.

[captainkiwi]

nuf said
point is mute
all is wank wank wank
there may be survivors
there may not
good fortune to them that do
and for fuck sake
get it right , next
time .....or not

[skunk]

you read one piece and that's all you need to make up your mind?

My mind isn't made up about anything. I was referring to the hoax mentioned in the original post as well as the additional sources I posted above.

Climatologists' data being tampered with is serious business.

If global warming, global cooling, whatever is happening, its in everyone's best interest as inhabitants of planet Earth for the most accurate data to be available.

[theeindiee]

Don't know about this one. I'm guessing that, in the course of the evolution of higher intelligences on a given planet, there is always a prolonged period of pollution and of social strife, and everyone fears that the destruction of the world is eminent. I know only of our own struggles here, but I'm sure this timultuous stretch corresponds with the struggles of every single planet in the cosmos... just because I assume that all intelligent consciousness manifesting in this plane of existence goes through similar states of mind.... both individually and as a collective. I mostly tend to ignore this debate, and others like it... because I don't worry too much about it. If it's in the cards that we destroy ourselves, my involvement in the matter at hand can only be very limited and at odds with destiny. I doubt it will happen. I believe that everything will be fine. Stop having panic sex and going on panic shopping sprees, and eating panic junk food, and watching panic television, and overall behaving in a very panicked and hurried fasion... and the problem will slowly ease into obscurity.

[Lexion]

Gee, never happened before (http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/climatechange2/01_1.shtml)

I guess our ancestors fires
for warmth and cooking caused
the last Ice-Age.

Woops.

[WITCH HUNT]

"Even when you give them proof that there belief system is bogus, they still cling to it out of the fear that they will look like they were duped!"

That is a quote from a former disciple of Jim Jones! Appropriate considering all of the kool aid drinkers in here! HA HA HA HA !

Oh yeah, I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[boycotteverything]

OK. You win. All's good with the world.

[skunk]

A few related news stories:

UK climate scientist to temporarily step down (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9CAM0VG0&show_article=1)

Britain's University of East Anglia says the director of its prestigious Climatic Research Unit is stepping down pending an investigation into allegations that he overstated the case for man-made climate change.

The university says Phil Jones will relinquish his position until the completion of an independent review into allegations that he worked to alter the way in which global temperature data was presented.

The allegations were made after more than a decade of correspondence between leading British and U.S. scientists were posted to the Web following the security breach last month.

The e-mails were seized upon by some skeptics of man-made climate change as proof that scientists are manipulating the data about its extent.


Penn State Will Investigate 'Climategate' (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/paper-trail/2009/11/30/penn-state-will-investigate-climategate.html)


Among other things, the Watergate scandal of the 1970s gave us a great naming convention for future scandals. Take "Climategate" at Penn State. That's what people are calling the controversy surrounding leaked E-mails among climate change researchers that climate change opponents say expose the researchers' falsification of data. One Penn State professor is involved in the scandal.

[skunk]

And another (this is a comment/opinion from financial times):

Secrecy in science is a corrosive force (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8aefbf52-d9e1-11de-b2d5-00144feabdc0.html)

With no disrespect to sausages and laws, Bismarck’s most famous aphorism clearly requires updating. “Scientific research” is bidding furiously to make the global shortlist of things one should not see being made.

Understandably so. Sciences at the cutting edge of statistics and public policy can make blood sports seem genteel. Scientists aggressively promoting pet hypotheses often relish the opportunity to marginalise and neutralise rival theories and exponents.

The malice, mischief and Machiavellian manoeuvrings revealed in the illegally hacked megabytes of emails (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/340e65d0-d865-11de-b63a-00144feabdc0.html) from the University of East Anglia’s prestigious Climate Research Unit, for example, offers a useful paradigm of contemporary scientific conflict. Science may be objective; scientists emphatically are not. This episode illustrates what too many universities, professional societies, and research funders have irresponsibly allowed their scientists to become. Shame on them all.

The source of that shame is a toxic mix of institutional laziness and complacency. Too many scientists in academia, industry and government are allowed to get away with concealing or withholding vital information about their data, research methodologies and results. That is unacceptable and must change.

Only recently in America, for example, have academic pharmaceutical researchers been required to disclose certain financial conflicts of interest they might have. On issues of the greatest importance for public policy, science researchers less transparent than they should be. That behaviour undermines science, policy and public trust.

Dubbed “climate-gate” by global warming sceptics, the most outrageous East Anglia email excerpts appear to suggest respected scientists misleadingly manipulated data and suppressed legitimate argument in peer-reviewed journals.

These claims are forcefully denied, but the correspondents do little to enhance confidence in either the integrity or the professionalism of the university’s climatologists. What is more, there are no denials around the researchers’ repeated efforts to avoid meaningful compliance with several requests under the UK Freedom of Information Act to gain access to their working methods. Indeed, researchers were asked to delete and destroy emails. Secrecy, not privacy, is at the rotten heart of this bad behavior by ostensibly good scientists.

Why should research funding institutions and taxpayers fund scientists who deliberately delay, obfuscate and deny open access to their research? Why should scientific journals publish peer-reviewed research where the submitting scientists have not made every reasonable effort to make their work – from raw data to sophisticated computer simulations – as transparent and accessible as possible? Why should responsible policymakers in America, Europe, Asia and Latin America make decisions affecting people’s health, wealth and future based on opaque and inaccessible science?

They should not. The issue here is not about good or bad science, it is about insisting that scientists and their work be open and transparent enough so that research can be effectively reviewed by broader communities of interest. Open science minimises the likelihood and consequences of bad science.

Debilitating and even fatal side-effects of new drugs might have been detected sooner if pharmaceutical companies had been compelled to share data on all the trials they ran, not just favourable ones. Similarly, the flawed and successfully overturned 1999 child murder conviction of Sally Clark might never have occurred if the statistical errors made by expert witness pediatrician Sir Roy Meadow had been questioned earlier. Data withholding played a distortive and destructive role in the cold fusion frenzy 20 years ago, when two scientists announced they had produced energy by cold fusion, only to be widely and quickly denounced by the scienitific community. Concealment and secrecy invites mischief; too many scientists seeking influence accept the invitation.

Achieving this is simple and inexpensive. It is not done by more rigorous enforcement of the Freedom of Information Act, although that would help. It comes from branding “openness” into every link of the scientific research value chain. Public or tax-deductible research funding should be contingent upon maximum transparency.

Scientists and affiliated institutions that will not make the research process as transparent as the end result will be asked to return the money or risk denial of future funds. University accreditation should be contingent not just upon faculty research and publication but by demonstrating policies and practices that champion data sharing. Professional societies and journals should make data sharing a condition of membership and publication. Researchers must be pushed to be more open at every step of their process.

The Royal Society not only makes data sharing a precondition of publication, it provides up to 10 megabytes of free space for supplementary data on its website. Unfortunately, too many scientific societies and publishers are less than rigorous or insistent about openness. Strip them of their tax-deductible status. Make opennes a condition of tax advantage. Of course commercial and proprietary issues can influence the manner of data sharing and transparency. But the East Anglia emails represent an individual and institutional imperative to err on the side of minimal disclosure even as researchers sought to maximise the academic and political impact of their work. That is perverse.

Public interest suggests scientists and their sponsoring institutions be made as legally, financially, professionally and ethically as uncomfortable as possible about concealing and withholding relevant research information.

If the University of East Anglia had been sharing more of its data and the computer models and statistical simulations running that data, the email hack would have been much ado about nothing.

When doing important research about the potential future of the planet, scientists should have nothing to hide. Their obligation to the truth is an obligation to openness.

[WITCH HUNT]

B E, this is not about me winning or Gore losing, it is about trying to save lives in the here and now! We can stop the over-fishing of our oceans, depletion of our other resources and mitigate the spread of disease world-wide.......but not if we are mired down by intractable demi-gods and their fake science.

In the meantime, eat some grapes & plant some trees and the Earth will take care
of itself!

[WITCH HUNT]

SKUNK...............Thank you for those articles. They are just what I need for my paper. Now I am going to have reference you as a source! 8 )

[boycotteverything]

plant some trees and the Earth will take care
of itself! no. those trees also need to be tended. it's a partnership in the end.

[Lexion]

no. those trees also need to be tended. it's a partnership in the end.

They did just fine, before
we came along.

(I already know the retort)