Early People of NZ

[KIWI]

had this sent by a member and asked what the "skinny" was.....


In New Zealand right now they are destroying Maori artifacts and the skeletons of tremendous height and red hair whom nobody claims knowledge of.


The red-haired natives, we all wnt to school with them in our midst.....as kids just figured they were a product of inter-marrying with caucasion sailors etc.....

The people are actually a seperate race from the maori.......they are known as the "Waitaha" people, and claim original occupation prior to the arrival of the Maori.....which is a staus denied them by academia...

what isnt denied is that the Maori ate the "Moriori" people, who were pacifist and refused to fight back.....

the Waitaha say the Moriori were one of several races (pale-skin-blue-eyed, green-eyed) who were here before the Maori

The Maori are officially recognized as original inhabitants and as such recieved tens of millions of dollars in remuneration for the unlawful seizure of their lands by the crown... (British)

not hard to see why the claims of an earlier race are met with derision by them

There are many stone artifacts around NZ that dont gel with the accepted theorys....these are treated the same as anywhere else in the world.......quietly ignored, dont want to rock the boat

this is from a poster called the Blue Horseman taken from David Ickes site



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61303
There is an oral history here in New Zealand of an ancient race of peoples that sailed to NZ from the east and populated the country many years before Maori - these people were called the Waitaha. They are not recognised as a race in NZ officially because to do that would succeed tribal rights over areas of land in treaty compensation negotiations away from Maori tribes but basically it is said that the Waitaha people sailed to NZ, populated it and lived in peace there for many years.
The difference between this race and the Maori at the time is that the Waitaha were totally into peace and that they were WHITE. They were fair skinned people some with blue eyes some with green, they had blond hair alot of them and some had red, they were tall and lithe and were mainly vegetarians. They had no martial arts or war structure as they were totally into peace so that when the Maori came they were easily over run and eaten or taken as slaves because they refused to fight - the memory of them is kept alive through their ancestors who were taken as slaves and assimilated into Maori society. That is why many Maori have red hair and some have green eyes. They were expert gardeners and the garden beds they made can still be seen in some areas.
Anyone else heard of these people? Would anyone know there origins? I think they came from Lemuria or s.a however the island of hte Marquesas have an interesting history as well.

an ancient site known as the "Kaimanawa-wall" has had all access banned by the govt until 2063 :roll:
http://www.mysteriousnewzealand.co.nz/photogallery/thumbnails.php?album=5

the Maori are a political force to be reckoned with in govt. ....and represent a sizable chunk of the voting "block"

as elsewhere.....politics , money, and power are all that is given consideration....

anyway, below are are a few extracts from various sources regards all this.... :smokin:

[offsite:3tcp2d7m]http://www.lodestarmedia.co.nz/mysteries.htm

`Pushing history back beyond our real time’ – original article appeared in Sunday Star-Times, April 1998

`Archaeological researchers are throwing new light on the age-old questions: Who got here first?’

A court case in the South Island which sees the Waitaha tribe seeking a judicial review to have its name removed from the Ngai Tahu settlement legislation is yet another step in an issue that has been simmering for many years: Just who were the first people to settle this country?

The answer might be a lot more complex and intriguing than once believed.

The Waitaha say they occupied the South Island long before Ngai Tahu came on the scene and they do not want to be included or receive money in the Ngai Tahu settlement as they are a separate tribe. Waitaha leader Rangimarie Te Maiharaoa says the settlement will “extinguish customary rights and aboriginal title of our people”.

In a not dissimilar case in 1994 Chatham Island Moriori put forward a claim for land, fisheries and official recognition as a first people, saying they were overrun by Taranaki Maori in 1835 and, as a result of their non-violent stance, ended up being enslaved or killed.

Moriori spokesman Maui Soloman said the crown had broken its obligation under the Treaty of Waitangi by not ensuring the court took into account Moriori tradition and perpetrating Victorian myths about the origins and nature of Moriori society.

Now a growing body of evidence from the divergent fields of science, history, archaeology and oral genealogical information is showing the human history of the first people of New Zealand stretches far further back than the great canoe migration from the Pacific around 1350AD.

Ten years ago Auckland University archaeologist Doug Sutton was among the first to claim human were here up to 2000 yeas ago. He based this on evidence of burn-offs and unexplained soil erosion, and sand dune movement. At the time his claims were largely dismissed.

But the subject got more attention in late 1996 when Christchurch scientist Dr Richard Holdaway carbon dated bones of a Polynesian rat (kiore) he had found in a Takaka cave that showed humans were probably here 1200 years earlier than previously thought.

Dr Holdaway, whose findings were published in the scientific journal Nature, says the rats could not have arrived here without people. His radio carbon dating has been verified by experts both here and overseas.

Just last month the theory was further advanced when bones believed to be from the extinct Finsche’s duck were found in Hawke’s Bay. What makes them so pertinent is that they are encased in volcanic ash (ignimbrite) from the massive Taupo eruption of 232AD. If radio carbon dating of the bones matched the date of the Taupo eruption any arguments on the accuracy of such dating of small birds and rats is over.

Then there is the intriguing case of an ancient carving now being held at the Dargaville Maritime Museum in Northland. The carving – kept secret since its discovery six years ago – was first announced to the public early in 1997 after being restored at Auckland University.

Museum curator and renowned historian Noel Hilliam says the rare 2.7m female carving is Waitaha and was found in sand dunes at North Head on Kaipara Harbour by a local woman.

There is also much talk in the area about a buried first people Waitaha village in the Kaipara dunes that first made an appearance several years ago when a fierce storm temporarily shifted sand. There are plans to raise the finance needed to excavate the site.

* * * * * * * *

No less than five people are writing books about our lost history. The work includes that of Australian Alan Seath, a specialist in archeoastronomy, who says huge stoneworks and modified hills here indicate an ancient civilisation was once adept at reading the movement of stars.

Napier author John Tasker has spent several years researching and writing his book Myth and Mystery (published late last year) which raised questions about Portuguese visitors to New Zealand.

Some of the most fascinating research is being compiled by journalist Gary Cook, who for the past three years has been extensively investigating, photographing and recording stone megaliths, domes, observatories and ritual burial sites with his small team.

Mr Cook says he has seen much work and art forms that are not of Maori origin. One of his biggest finds was in Waipoua Forest in Northland, which he says is a treasure trove of pre-Maori stone structures. What makes them intriguing is that the area was subject to a three-year $500,000 survey by the Forest Service (now DoC) in the mid-80s.

A 75-year embargo until 2063 was placed on the release of 300 pages of documents on the site. Although Mr Cook was able to get some material released through the Official Information Act, what still eludes him is information on radio carbon dating of up to 16 sites in a 242 ha area with nearly 2000 stones structures. His book, The Secret Land, is to be published early next year.

Another pondering the puzzle is Australian historian and author Rex Gilroy, who maintains Stone Age first people races preceded the Aborigines in Australia and the Polynesians in the Pacific. He says a ghostly trial of steeped pyramids and other stone structures point to Phoenician, Egyptian and Libyan relics.

Other important information comes from Christchurch historian and archaeologist Barry Brailsford. A highly credible source – he was principal lecturer at the Christchurch College of Education, has served at government level overseas and in 1990 was awarded an MBE for services to education and Maori scholarship – his story takes some beating.

He says he was approached in the late `80s by Waitaha elders and asked to write down what, until then, had been the oral and highly secret history of their people. The Waitaha knowledge he uncovered adds 1000 years to documented New Zealand history and takes occupation by first people back to the time of Christ.

Mr Brailsford say the Waitaha comprised of 200 iwi who came together in New Zealand from homelands in the Pacific. For about 200 years they made regular forays here, each time leaving small groups to settle. They eventually sent a founding waka of 175 people.

However, when elders foresaw the destruction of their peace-loving nation by later arrivals of warriors from the Pacific, whole generation of their genealogy were “erased” – the knowledge was not shared outside the Waitaha to protect the sacredness of their ancestors from violence and warfare.

Mr Brailsford says this had the effect of removing stepping-stones across a stream. Real knowledge of the Waitaha was kept alive in an oral tradition entrusted to a handful of people. The revelation adds a further 76 generations to the history of this country, he says.

What is most incredible are Mr Brailsford's claims the Waitaha comprised three different peoples: The Moriori, who at the time were giants, over 1.8m and superb gardeners, able to grow the kumara 1000km further south than in its South American homeland; the Urukehu, a fair-skinned people also known as the Starwalkers who were skilled at reading the geometry of the stars and were the navigators guiding the people to this land; and the Kiritea or Stone people, who came from Asian lands (Mr Brailsford says you can see depiction of them on some maraes where all the ancestors are shown) and who carried the greenstone over mountain passes.

Waitaha elders decided to release the information of their true past in line with an ancient prophesy (which was fulfilled by a special alignment of stars in 1990) and to offer hope to the young people of this land, says Mr Brailsford.

His journey in writing Song of Waitaha, released with great ceremony in 1994, has been extraordinary. Before beginning work on the book he had to lead a selected team of people across the Southern Alps to reopen old Waitaha greenstone rails closed for 130 years.

He had to undertake journeys which took him into the North American desert to light “trail fires” (which resulted in Wallace Black Elk, leader of the Sioux people, turning up unexpectedly on Mr Brailsford's Christchurch doorstep) and, on another journey, deliver greenstone to the 12 American Indian nations. He also visited megalithic sites in England, Scotland and Wales.[/offsite:3tcp2d7m]

we have an old friend we use to accompany on fossil digs..(lala and I both know him well) he is an amazing guy....knew more about the Maori than any Maori Ive ever met,

on a beach about 30km south of here he found the graves of very tall, red-haired skeletons, buried upright in the sitting position and oriented facing to the East.....this would be 30 years ago now.....

here a few links for antone interested

http://www.waitaha.org/stories/my-journey-home-to-the-ancient-turtle-people

http://people.tribe.net/9742b654-bf8a-4896-b50f-7011402437ac/blog/3d2a5407-68e5-419e-a641-4f3721c9e38f

[boycotteverything]

Damn. Did I ask the right guy! I've bookmarked the links- looks like hours of great reading. The Waitaha... who knew? Thanks for this. This jumped out at me as an indication of the importance of this study:
A 75-year embargo until 2063 was placed on the release of 300 pages of documents on the site. Although Mr Cook was able to get some material released through the Official Information Act, what still eludes him is information on radio carbon dating of up to 16 sites in a 242 ha area with nearly 2000 stones structures. His book, The Secret Land, is to be published early next year.You have to ask why. And who the hell has the authority to suppress this history?

[Lexion]

You have to ask why. And who the hell has the authority to suppress this history?

Hitler comes to mind.

And everyone else who writes
those books.

Sad, I know.

Thanks, Kiwi.

[lala]

I remember that guy, his name was bill to . . . he could pick up a rock crack it open and there was always some type of fossil inside . . . he had bones all over the house, skeletons in the cupboards one was a big man, he was with the people that found the first dinosaur bone over here . . . we use to hang out with him when we were teens . . . :smokin:

[Cogburn]

Great thread, KIWI.

Definitely putting this in the "Must Read" bin.

[KIWI]

A 75-year embargo until 2063 was placed on the release of 300 pages of documents on the site. Although Mr Cook was able to get some material released through the Official Information Act, what still eludes him is information on radio carbon dating of up to 16 sites in a 242 ha area with nearly 2000 stones structures. His book, The Secret Land, is to be published early next year.

same old story, just a different part of the world,.....

here is a quick couple of contradictions regards the "cultural" :roll: significance





Changing Story...
Further extract from 'Journeys into the mystery' by Gary Cook:
"The feelings and emotions that were experienced during the lifting of tapu on this place were plain to see in the reactions of all present at this most sacred of events.
We would need the strength of our knowledge to maintain our position. I was told that Waitaha elders, in seeking permission to acknowledge this site, had approached the Taupo iwi of Tuwharetoa. The response had been that the stones held no significance to the local people and were in fact located outside traditional boundaries observed by them.
This was a story that would change dramatically in the weeks that followed..."



then this..... :scratch:



Maori Embargo...
During the May 1996 media frenzy, local Maori suddenly declared that the wall is both an 'atua', and a 'waahi tapu'. Local Tuwharetoa elders warn that as a result it is now a no-go area for both the public and Department of Conservation and `we require this rule to be adhered to without exception'.

Maori elders also took the opportunity to refute the idea that the wall is of pre-Maori origin, and re-iterate that `the tangata whenua are the only descendants of the original occupants in Aotearoa'.

Victoria University Maori Studies senior lecturer Peter Adds also stated publically that `the suggestion of a pre-Maori civilisation is inherently racist'...


lol....shake-head, cry in despair....he heads the dept?



You have to ask why. And who the hell has the authority to suppress this history?

Hitler comes to mind.

And everyone else who writes
those books.

Sad, I know.

Thanks, Kiwi.

my pleasure mate..........I havnt bothered much with NZ debated pre-history , had a quick "dip" with the Tamil-Bell and the stone-head I saw and handled when I was a kid.....(I have tracked down its where-abouts but the people holding it are another branch of the family I know, and dont want anyone to see it or publicize its existence,.....my mates mum has told me she will get me to it but have to be patient.....not one of my strong points sadly :? )........as there is far more well-known places of the same nature

as we all know South America alone is virtually over-flowing with this sort of stuff...to name just one

( cogs new Pyramid comes to immediate mind....the question for me is trhe same as why are we not on the moon.....but in this case..."why are not all global agencies united in uncovering our true history?"....the wars in the middle east are destroying evidence faster than it can be found)

I will throwup a few photos later to help with some perspective of just what is being talked about regards the "wall"...

I spend a bit of time at an amazing web-site that deals with the whole S Pacific region.......there is hardly an Island or people without the same type of mystery as we have here....

I will put some more stuff up as there is it seems a bit of interest in the region

[Lexion]

My problem with the question
posed in the OP was the "tremendous
height".

I'm 5'10".

To a culture of dwarfs, I'd be of
tremendous height.

Are the people over 6' ? over 7' ?

Is the height consistant ?

I've no problem with the hair and
eye color, at all.

[boycotteverything]

1.8 meters=6' tall, but not giants.

[Cogburn]

Victoria University Maori Studies senior lecturer Peter Adds also stated publically that `the suggestion of a pre-Maori civilisation based on new facts is inherently plausible'...
Fixed.

Peter Adds is a shill, not a researcher or scientist.

[mojo]

ahhhh...great post KIWI. Now this is something i can sink my teeth into as it ties into my research on the evidence of phoenician influence in the pacific and the america's.


Another pondering the puzzle is Australian historian and author Rex Gilroy, who maintains Stone Age first people races preceded the Aborigines in Australia and the Polynesians in the Pacific. He says a ghostly trial of steeped pyramids and other stone structures point to Phoenician, Egyptian and Libyan relics.


forget the egyptian or libyan influence, neither of those civilizations had the maritime skill to undertake such jpourney's.



A 75-year embargo until 2063 was placed on the release of 300 pages of documents on the site. Although Mr Cook was able to get some material released through the Official Information Act, what still eludes him is information on radio carbon dating of up to 16 sites in a 242 ha area with nearly 2000 stones structures. His book, The Secret Land, is to be published early next year.
You have to ask why. And who the hell has the authority to suppress this history?

there is a place in north queensland that contains evidence of a phoenician harbour and structures, it has been placed off limits to further investigation by the government for years now.

ohh what a tangled web we weave.........

[Chorlton]

Kiwi
You read David Icke ??

That site is as fallacious as the bullshit given to UK immigrants by OZ House in London in the 60's

[KIWI]

Kiwi
You read David Icke ??

That site is as fallacious as the bullshit given to UK immigrants by OZ House in London in the 60's


am aware of mr Icke and his reptillian claims Chorlton.......watched a vid many years back and decided there was more interesting areas of CT to follow....the quote from "Blue-Horseman" was put up to show the topic is alive and well........it was just a link from a web-search on the topic, and the source was provided as is required when posting anothers opinion....


have a look at this while I get some other bits regarding the heights of these people....there are both very tall and very small people said to have been here.......
[attachment=0:k0uz9ffx]Turehu.jpg[/attachment:k0uz9ffx]

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Bes%20&%20Thor/Bes&Taranis.htm

The coffins seen above were photographed in 1919 high up a cliff-face at a very remote part of New Zealand. Each coffin was hewn-out by stone tools from a single log, like a dugout canoe (photo: courtesy of Rob Graham).

These coffins were not planked or made from sawn timbers, as one would expect colonial-European coffins to be fabricated at any point during the colonial era. The lids were also hewn from a single, thick plank, with the edge lip (used for locking the lid firmly onto the coffin box) laboriously carved by scalloping out the central region. The cultural habit of carving coffins in this manner, as single hewn pieces, is reminiscent of the mummy-boards of Egypt, which fully encased the body of the deceased. One skeleton lies on what appears to have been the base of an old canoe.

These skeletons display recognisable European physiology. They were already very old when found in isolated country, far from the consecrated ground of a churchyard. The deceased people were, undoubtedly, the white Ngati Hotu, known in local Maori and European folklore to have hidden from the cannibals for centuries in this inhospitable region. The location was less than 50-miles further into the rugged badlands interior from where the last of the Ngati Hotu tribe were defeated and cannibalised in the “Battle of the Five Forts” at Pukekaikiore (hill of the meal of rats).

A blow-up of the picture positively shows a side view of a jaw (mandible) adjacent to the canoe base, which is not the Maori-Polynesian rocker jaw with a continuous downwards curve on the lower border. Further to that, the eye sockets of these people are squarish, the nose openings pyramidal, the faces long and narrow (dolicephalic skull type) and the craniums very round. The face line from the jaw past the nose and brow is consistent with the European facial profile, rather than the very flat face of the Maori.






For about 12-years during the mid 1860’s-70’s Robertson’s Mill in Onehunga, Auckland ground up tens of thousands of Patu-paiarehe skeletons from the Auckland and Northland burial caves to make fertiliser. Maori leaders had told Governor Bowen at Te Kopuru in 1869, ‘Do with them what you wish for these are not our people’ (Source: Noel Hilliam, former Curator of the Dargaville Maritime Museum).




In 2004, Member of Parliament, the Hon. Chris Carter, was asked, under an “official information” request, how many archaeological “embargoes” were presently in place. He forwarded a written response that there were 105 current embargoes, mostly concerning burial sites. It was stated that “DOC administers the New Zealand Archaeological Associations Central file ...of which, 105 ... were classified as sensitive records”. The response stated: “File keepers may create sensitive files ....if this is requested by the site recorder...”

One of these embargos of recent years included a 75-year suppression of information related to a cache of large stature skeletons at Waikaretu, 12-miles SSE of Port Waikato. The very tall people (measured to be 7-feet or more) were laid out on cut shelves in a cavern, which was exposed during road widening excavations.

Anthropologists from Auckland and Waikato Universities were called in and, to the dismay and disgust of the roading contractors, they slapped a moratorium over the find, requiring that it be kept secret from the New Zealand public. Maurice Tyson of Tuakau, a contractor in the area for 50 years, recalls how this upset the men who had discovered the cave.

They could not understand why such a valuable, history-changing, archaeological site should be kept secret. In 1988, archaeologist, Michael Taylor slapped an embargo on any release of information concerning the ancient, stacked stone structures in the Waipoua Forest, but that embargo was partially broken by a private citizen’s legal challenge after 8-years.

What this means is that the “powers that be” assume the authority to veto any mention or release of information they consider not suitable for the public. The reality is, however, that all skeletal remains of the pre-Maori people, when located in caves, rock shelters, sand dunes, etc., by hunters or others and reported to the authorities, are inevitably buried, removed or destroyed by concealment teams associated with the local iwi or Department of Conservation.

Since the beginning of New Zealand’s colonial era, innumerable anomalous skeletons have been seen in dry burial caves and some of these were in coffins or more-often laid out on stone shelves, etc. On rare occasions, some bodies have been seen to be encased within solidified tree gum. Many skeletons have been observed to have the blond, red or brown hair hues, typical of Europeans, and are often accompanied by carved greenstone or other kinds of funerary objects.

In coastal sand dunes, as elsewhere, the skeletons are mostly found to be buried in a foetal or sitting position, with the knees drawn up to the chest and trussed (tied). This is similar to Beaker-People burials of ancient Britain or the innumerable mummy-bag burials of Peru.

This statement to Governor Bowen parallels what historian/ anthropologist Edward Tregear heard and wrote:

“The Maoris used to pay great respect to the bones of their dead, yet here and there may be found among sandhills, etc., human remains uncovered by the wind, and of these no tradition remains, as there would certainly be if the relics were those of ancestors. The natives say, “These are the bones of strangers.” So also mortuary-caves are found concerning the contents of which the Maoris make the same remark, and regard them with indifference” (See: The Maori Race, pp. 562-563).

[Lexion]

Great info, Kiwi !!!!

I'll admit, 7' is pretty tall.

But calling them giants ?

Tremendous height ?

As Ducky would say, schemantics.

Aren't there tribes in Africa that
are generally around 7', too ?

I'll do some digging for that.

[Lexion]

[offsite:39at8w8v]Pliny the Elder, Natural History 6. 194 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.) :
"On the African side [of the Aethiopian kingdom of Meroe] are the Medimni, and then a Nomad tribe that lives on the milk of the dog-faced baboon [the Cyncophali], the Alabi, and the Syrbotae who are said to be 12 feet high." - Pliny, Natural History 6.1[/offsite:39at8w8v]

Source (http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Syrbotai.html)

Now, THAT'S fucking tall.

[KIWI]

Great info, Kiwi !!!!

I'll admit, 7' is pretty tall.

But calling them giants ?

Tremendous height ?

As Ducky would say, schemantics.

Aren't there tribes in Africa that
are generally around 7', too ?

I'll do some digging for that.


Im still digging Lex......this topic in general encompasses our whole planet....one of the main points of contention is the direction from which the migrations into the Pacific region took place....the Maori say they arrived by canoe (7 if I remember right?) from Hawaiiki.....the natural "flow" is from the opposite direction...from the Indian ocean......here is a link to an excellant site called Pacific pathways

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/GeneticsrewritesPacificprehistory.htm

trying desperately to keep on track here, the legends and genetic tracing encompasses both North and South America.....the Haida and the Maori, as well as many Asian countries have very similar ritual, cultural and linquistic traits....

and yes the Africans have the same type of size diversity,....I think the Watusi are the "tall" tribe in this respect

[KIWI]

[offsite:1b1skye7]Pliny the Elder, Natural History 6. 194 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.) :
"On the African side [of the Aethiopian kingdom of Meroe] are the Medimni, and then a Nomad tribe that lives on the milk of the dog-faced baboon [the Cyncophali], the Alabi, and the Syrbotae who are said to be 12 feet high." - Pliny, Natural History 6.1[/offsite:1b1skye7]

Source (http://www.theoi.com/Phylos/Syrbotai.html)

Now, THAT'S fucking tall.

cheers Lex...a new one for me!.........thanks.....err , I think, (another day down the toob!) :smokin:

[KIWI]

Victoria University Maori Studies senior lecturer Peter Adds also stated publically that `the suggestion of a pre-Maori civilisation based on new facts is inherently plausible'...
Fixed.

Peter Adds is a shill, not a researcher or scientist.


go gettum cog!....lol

Ive got something here will interest you.....was reading last night how early explorers in both Australia and New-Zealand almost keeled over in shock when greeted by natives of both with a masonic hand-shake??????.....I kid you not,....will find and paste .....its on the list :roll:

[KIWI]

Elsdon Best is considered one our leading early writers on Maori culture and history, I have several of his books dealing with fishing techniques and medicinal plants.......thankfully there is a large amount of documentation tha has survived by him and many others of the day



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsdon_Best
Elsdon Best was born 30 June 1856 at Tawa Flat, New Zealand, moving with his family to Wellington at the age of 9, where he went to school. He passed the Civil Service Examination and became a clerk in 1873, but within a year found the work uncongenial and moved to the east coast, where he worked in farming and forestry. In 1881, he joined the Armed Constabulary, but soon left it to travel, visiting Hawaii and then California, where he worked in cattle mustering and lumbering.

In 1886, Best returned to New Zealand, resuming his life in the bush where he came into increasing contact with the M?ori, whose language he learned and culture he began to study. When the Polynesian Society was founded in 1892, Best was working in Wellington in a warehouse, and wrote an article on the people of the Philippines and submitted it to the society's new journal. He also began a series on the history of Wellington Harbour.







http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/GeneticsrewritesPacificprehistory.htm
We seem to be getting a long way from the Polynesian story, but are we? Maori history from New Zealand describes their origin was from India, as we see from the following extract from an article recorded from Maori elders by Elsdon Best (1856 -1931 ) ;

Maori tradition tells us that their ancestors in times long passed away, 161 generations ago - (approximately 1500B.C. - a time of turmoil in India), migrated from a hot country named Irihia (Vrihia is an ancient name for India). The cause of exodus, from this original homeland was a disastrous war with a dark-skinned folk, in which great numbers were slain.

The principle food supply on the voyage was the sapless small seed named ari - the Indian word for rice. They crossed the oceans (Indian Ocean and Atlantic), to sojourn in two lands, named Tawhiti-roa (distant long land – Central America) and Tawhiti-nui (distant big land - Peru - no voyage between these two lands), after which they entered the isles of Polynesia.

Is it mere coincidence that the Maori mention a departure from India at the same time when the Harappa civilization was destroyed? Where did the name Maori come from? According to the Rig Veda, the Maurya dynasties of India began in 1500BC. Is this, another mere coincidence? This legend mentions a war with a dark skinned folk (the Hindu Dravidians).

This can only mean the Maori ancestors were pale skinned. The Urukehu and Charapa people of Peru and the Pacific were all red heads. ‘They crossed the oceans', means they crossed more than one ocean. An epic voyage such as this must have been done with the prevailing wind via a known trade route.

Assuming their destination was Central America, their route would have been in summer around ‘The Cape of Good Hope' and across the Atlantic utilizing the Southern Equatorial current, and S.E. Tradewinds, making landfall along the northern coast of South America. Interestingly Bronze Age Indian genes are common amongst Venezuelans. According to the Rig Veda, when Harappa was destroyed, many people sailed to Tamil Nadu where a similar culture existed. Others chose to leave India completely and go in search of a new homeland.

[boycotteverything]

Victoria University Maori Studies senior lecturer Peter Adds also stated publically that `the suggestion of a pre-Maori civilisation based on new facts is inherently plausible'...
Fixed.

Peter Adds is a shill, not a researcher or scientist.now how exactly do you know that?

[lala]

Just thought I'd through this out there to, found on a web site, where someone asking what the link is between the tibetan monks and nz, will see if can find a bit more info on this soon :D

[offsite:3qn5fs39]Thanks for your posting explanation & references about this wonderful history regarding R?kaihaut?, Te Muriwhenua Waitaha te mea te mea. I feel I must add something here about Tibet. I first became interested in this when I saw Tibetan monks on a NZ documentary visit the Hokianga with this young Tibetan boy whom was schooled here for in his junior years & the monks returned to take him home to Tibet. In the documentary it was said that Tibetan monks have always paid their respects to this sacred place in the Hokianga whom they have always believed that spirits there came from their spirit place n? reir? whai h?ere te matauranga, ma te atua e manaaki e tiaki
http://www.maori.org.nz/papa_panui/forum_topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=957&FORUM_ID=12&CAT_ID=2&Forum_Title=Iwi%2C+Hapu+and+Marae&Topic_Title=TE+WAIARIKI+%3A+Help+with+whakapapa+ne eded&whichpage=1&tmp=1#pid11910[/offsite:3qn5fs39]

[KIWI]

just throw this up as regards the "rocker-jaw"

[attachment=2:2xf96bjg]Rocker2.jpg[/attachment:2xf96bjg]


Phillip Houghton, in his book, The First New Zealanders, 1980, offers comparisons between the Maori-Polynesian physiology and that of other racial groups (yellow lines & numbers added).

The cranial image to the left is typically European, showing the face line, straight set of the teeth and upward indented (concave) mandible. The skull to the right is Polynesian Maori, which varies markedly from these features, including the very distinctive rocker jaw and general shape of the cranium. For anyone seeking a comprehensive description of skeletal differences, Houghton’s book is a valuable resource.


Houghton writes:

'When the Polynesian skull is placed beside that of a European, or any other race, differences can be seen. The Polynesian head, particularly of the male, is more angular, appearing distinctly pentagonal from above or behind, compared with the rounder contour of the European. The region of the temples is particularly flat in the Polynesian, and the bridges of bone known as the zygomatic arches stand well clear of the crainial contour, being visible from above. In the heads of most races these arches are usually concealed by the cranial contour in this view.


Viewed from the front the face appears flat-sided with the cheekbone turning back at right angles to the facial surface. Viewed from the side the face of the Polynesian appears flat, vertical in profile, and not usually with any projection of the front teeth and their supporting bone as commonly seen in Negroes, in whom also the point of the chin may be set back so that the whole of the mid-face appears to project forward. The vault of the Polynesian cranium is high.

And from the side view is seen what is probably the most distinctive Polynesian feature of all, the shape of the mandible. The lower border of this bone shows a continuous and marked convex curve from front to back This means that when the isolated bone is placed on a flat surface it makes contact at only two points, and therefore rocks when disturbed. This has given rise to the term familiar to Oceanic anthropologists as describing the Polynesian mandible - the rocker jaw.' (See The First New Zealanders, pp. 41-44, with illustrations).



[spoiler:2xf96bjg][attachment=1:2xf96bjg]TurehuCoffins2.jpg[/attachment:2xf96bjg][/spoiler:2xf96bjg]


[attachment=0:2xf96bjg]CannibalVictims1.jpg[/attachment:2xf96bjg]


A few years ago a Northland, researcher, Shaun Reilly, raised a lot of this evidence about pre-Maori settlement before the Northland Conservation Board (Department of Conservation). In a newspaper article by journalist Leighton Keith it was reported that, ‘Northland Conservation Board Chairman, Lew Ritchie said most board members were aware this evidence existed, but the board was too busy to investigate further’.




Yet another cache of cannibal victim bones, such as one finds all over New Zealand.

No scientific investigation of racial characteristics of any such remains is permitted. The chronic suppression problem is very general throughout the Pacific. Dr. Lisa Maltisso-Smith admitted in a NZ Herald Newspaper interview in 2004 that: ‘Ancient human remains in the Pacific are rare and off-limits for study. So there was no hope of comparing genetic variations in old and new human tissue’.

Self-portraits on the pottery of the Pacific’s ancient Lapita People show long-faced dolicephalic cranial indexes, with the narrow beaked leptorrhine nose, wide eyes, thin lips, wavy flowing hair and moustaches, consistent with European physiology.

[KIWI]

Mojo wrote

forget the egyptian or libyan influence, neither of those civilizations had the maritime skill to undertake such jpourney's.


...its a mess alright....our history, there are in fact a few egyptian artifacts been discovered in both NZ and Aust.....as well as other cultural similarities drawn

[attachment=0:231648zf]Chin%20moko.jpg[/attachment:231648zf]


This picture shows 3 Egyptian women (listed 1,2,3) with a Maori woman listed as (4). The Egyptian women are Assouan, from Upper Egypt. All display chin, lip or forehead tattoos. This picture and an accompanying article appeared in The Journal Of The Polynesian Society, Volume XIII - 1905.

The article and picture first appeared in the Otago Witness newspaper and included the following commentary, 'The London correspondent of The New Zealand Times says, - 'General Robley, the well known authority upon Maori art, sends me a sketch that he made of Assouan villagers now on view themselves at Earl's Court'.

'The sketch shows that the married women of this tribe far up the Nile are tattooed in a manner remarkably similar to that in which the Maori women used to be tattooed, namely on the lips and chin and now and again on the forehead.... General Robley has found on some of the earlier Egyptian mummies certain ornamental designs, which have hitherto been considered purely Egyptian, but he finds that they are identical to some of the most ancient Maori patterns' (emphasis added). See: The People Before, by Gary J Cook & Thomas J Brown pgs. 148, 150.

For further reference to traditional female facial tattooing (Harquus) of North Africa/ Egypt and it's Mediterranean environs see links extending from:

http://www.hennapage.com/henna/forum/messages/70857.html

[KIWI]

[attachment=0:175mrufy]Tutankhamun.jpg[/attachment:175mrufy]


On Tutankhamen’s death mask there is one extra forehead line on the left side. The forehead aspect of the moko on the young Maori chieftain, painted by Angus in 1847, shows an extra line on the right side. Both designs carry scientific information in the counts of dark and light lines.

On the Maori moko the count is 13 dark lines and 14 light lines, including the ornate centre band. The sum of 13 X 14 days = 182-days or the number of full days between equinoxes. Tutankhamen’s mask shows a cobra snake and ibis bird with a snake-like neck. The Maori moko centre band shows the Fleur de lys and Caduceus symbols, with the dual snakes entwined on the shaft.

These are very ancient Mediterranean symbols, used copiously from Egypt to Ireland. The ancestors of the Turehu venerated the sun god RA and the spirals on each cheek represented the two solstice positions (Summer & Winter) with the nose-bridge position representing the equinoxes (Autumn & Vernal) in the endless journey of RA.

Everything necessary would be present in the counts associated with this moko, if supported by some training in the wharewaananga, for the wearer to understand the full function of the Egyptian-Celtic, lunisolar Sabbatical Calendar.

The Maori word for “deformed” (haka) or “stunted” (hakahaka) applies equally to physical attributes of the dwarf god (Bes/ Rongo), as it does to the Bes-related dance (haka). Egyptian fertility/ good-luck tattooing is called Harquus. The tattooing or body painting, ritually done in ancient Egypt, was also strongly associated with dance. In Egypt, a female version of Bes existed and this appears to have been case in New Zealand also.

Traditional Bes-related belly-dancing for fertility/ good fortune/ protection, as found in Egypt, also uses facial tattooing (harquus). In addition, there is the more extensive body tattooing or painting (henna), which is comparable to Pacific patterns found on sacred tapa cloths (painted prayers or rangoli).

Some groups never made permanent, scarring tattoos into their skin, but only painted the face and body on special occasions (like the Picts, with their warpaint of blue woad, which made them look fearsome when doing battle against the hated Romans).

[KIWI]

The ancient deity "Bes" is also seen as a link between cultures.....said to be shown by the Maori in the design of the "Tiki"........I'll throw it up next post


this quoted below is just another example of suppression that is suffered by us all on a global scale


Old Maori skeletons get new home

24 September 2005
By RICHARD WOOD

The remains of 12 skeletons in a formal pre-European Maori urupa (cemetery) unearthed by contractors on a Manutahi farm, have been removed and re-interred at Manutahi Marae by kaumatua of the Ngati Pakakohe iwi.


No official comment could be obtained from Pakakohe, but tribal members told the Taranaki Daily News the blessing and reinterrment happened on Tuesday.

These sources were not comfortable with the removal of the bones.

They said the remains should possibly have been left where they were found.

The principal South Taranaki iwi, Ngati Ruanui, was originally called in by the police after the remains were disturbed during land contouring earthworks for oil exploration company Swift Energy NZ Ltd, on September 13.

Ngati Ruanui chairman Syd Kahu, asked for an update this week, said: "I have handed it all over to Pakakohe, that's all I have to say."

Allan Cunningham, the new Swift CEO said nothing further was being done at the site "until Ngati Ruanui decide to allow it. They may do as they see fit, that's our position. There has been a limited amount of fill work done where the remains were found."

Michael Taylor, a private archaeologist from Archaeology North, Wanganui, was called in by the NZ Historic Places Trust to assess the discovery but did no excavation.

He said the urupa "definitely pre-dates European settlement due to the style of burial, state of the bones and the presence of what may have been woven flax. Something like this is a significant discovery because it is an unrecorded formal burial site. I've been in archaeology for over 20 years and this is the first time I have seen anything like this."

Since the find, a bit more evidence has filtered through from private sources. This tells us:

The bones of each skeleton unearthed were in woven bags, but the material was not flax.


The burial site was a formally organised location, totally unknown to the local iwi by their own admission. It's evident that they had no history of burials at this location and in this unique manner. The remains were of an earlier, ancient people, who had no affiliation with the local iwi now occupying the region.


The final burial had occurred in swamp or bog land. Burying the dead in watery graves, such as swamps or bogs was sometimes practiced by ancient Europeans.


No photography of the skeletal remains recovered at the Manutahu farm was permitted.


No forensic analysis to determine the physical anthropology or ethnicity of the skeletal remains was permitted, although in the majority of cases the remains were removed from the wet burial enviroment intact within the woven bags and all physical materials were in a high state of preservation. These were perfect specimens for profound scientific analysis.

The remains, which were undoubtedly pre-Maori or of ancient Patu-paiarehe-European ethnicity have, as per usual, been whisked away and destroyed, this time at Manutahi PA located between Hawera and Patea. This "Dark Ages" practice of suppressing scientific investigation ensures that we never learn the truth about our long-term history of New Zealand. Moreover, the progeny of those who annihilated the earlier inhabitants of New Zealand are aided and abetted by the authorities in keeping knowledge concerning the earliest New Zealanders a deep, dark secret.

Europeans have a right to be consulted regarding the fate of the remains of their ancient cousin peoples. This is yet another breach of, what should be, mutual respect for ethnic rights.

SO, WELCOME TO THE "DARK AGES".

It has been correctly stated by one observer: 'it's virtually all corporate science now' and information is carefully vetted, seived and sanitised by social engineers before it's deemed suitable for presentation to the masses. Such is the reason behind the destruction, instead of forensic analysis, of ages-old skeletal remains from a Taranaki swamp.

[mojo]

...its a mess alright....our history, there are in fact a few egyptian artifacts been discovered in both NZ and Aust.....as well as other cultural similarities drawn


the reason for egyptian similarities is easy, the egyptians hired the phoenicians for nearly all of their maritime trading and exploration. the phoenicians would have assimilated some egyptian characteristics into their culture.
it's my be;lief however that the phoenicians were exploring and trading around the world even before their contact and utilisation by egypt.

dare i say it but it's my belief that the phoenicians are somehow connected to the Atlantis mythos.

[Cogburn]

dare i say it but it's my belief that the phoenicians are somehow connected to the Atlantis mythos.
After digesting Cremo with a finer palette, and combining that research with what we've seen in the past 10 years, I'm not so convinced.

I think it's older. Much older.

I am now of the opinion that, at one time roughly 150,000-200,000 years ago, there was a global civilization of humanity on the planet that met with near annihilation due to a collision with a meteor that struck in the Mediterranean region.

[offsite=http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Enigma-of-Desert-Glass-Solved-by-Meteorite-Collision-43248.shtml:3kgrb4sr]Scientists found in 1987 strange specimens of natural glass (known locally as Dakhla glass) in the western Egyptian desert and have been puzzled by the origins of those stones.

Some suggested that the glass might have been the product of vegetation burning or lightening strikes.

But recent chemical analysis pointed that this glass was created at such a high temperature that it can only be the product of a meteorite slamming into Earth between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago.

At the time of the impact, the Dakhla Oasis was a typical African savanna, inhabited by early human species, as the archaeological evidence shows.

"This meteorite event would have been catastrophic for all living things," said Maxine Kleindienst, an anthropologist at the University of Toronto in Canada.

"Even a relatively small impact would have exterminated all life for [several] miles."

The

glass contains strands of molten quartz, a clear sign of meteorite impacts.

"We can now say for definite that they were caused by a meteorite impact," said Gordon Osinski, a geologist at the Canadian Space Agency in Saint-Hubert.

The glass deposits were spread over tens of kilometers, with no signs of an impact crater, suggesting a massive event.

"Usually from an impact like this, we should have a crater at least a kilometer [0.6 mile] across," Osinski said.

No crater means that the large meteorite may have split off upon entering Earth's atmosphere.

"In an air burst like that, contents of the explosion continue to travel downward ? providing a gas pulse across the [Earth's] surface that could vitrify sediments," said Albert Haldemann, a planetary scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Something similar passed with the Tunguska meteorite that fell in 1908 in Siberia and did not leave any crater.
At the impact time, there was a large lake in the area.

"If there was an impact at the surface and it happened to hit the lake, it wouldn't be surprising if the [crater] was filled in," Haldemann said.

"Did the event boil the entire lake away, or did it just cause a really big wave to go across the lake? Maybe we can figure that out from the sediments."

Human stone tools including spears and scrapers prove that the area was inhabited from about 200,000 to 30,000 years ago.

Human habitation evidence was found in the soil layers below and above the glass.

"Calculations at Meteor Crater give some idea of what the effect of a [relatively small] impact would be," she said.

"Life forms are killed or seriously injured for many tens of kilometers away from the impact."

"If this event happened during a humid period, the area might have been ecologically repopulated fairly quickly from surrounding areas," she added.

"But if it happened during a dry period, it might have taken a considerable period for life to be re-established in the oasis region."

The meteorite events remember us the interconnectedness between Earth and the solar system.

"We already know the environment of the whole Earth is tied together," said Haldemann.

"What we've been learning more and more in the last 20 years or so is that we're also tied to the solar system as a whole over longer time periods and that this interaction tends to be punctuated by these catastrophic events."

"Here we have evidence in the [Early Stone Age] records that this kind of thing can really happen to us."[/offsite:3kgrb4sr]

We [i]know that homo sapiens have been around for about 500,000 years. That's people, just like you and me and everyone you've ever met. Prior to that, the ancestors of modern humanity existed for nearly 2.5 million years. There is nothing contained within any fossil record that precludes those non-human humans from being fully sentient creatures. Quite the opposite, in fact.

We've posted article after article of humans making finely crafted trinkets, beautiful and intricate "useless" things, dated as far back as 50,000 years. Where is the attendant culture required to support such artistry, or was the artist living in a pre-historic, Mad Max-style Armageddon?

It took 15,000 years for culture to arise from a hunter-gatherer, tribal system into the globe-spanning masters of our domain. Assuming we nuked the world tomorrow, one might assume that in another 15,000 years you'd see the same occurrence.

How many times might humanity have destroyed themselves to the point where only trinkets and beads remain? Four? Seven? Ten?

I think that the Atlantis mythos is a super-abstraction of a deeper cultural memory of all such past global civilizations.

[Lexion]

Thank you, Cog.

At least you don't buy into the
"we nuked ourselves" scenario.

[Cogburn]

I do and I don't.

"Nuke" is a bit of a generalization for bringing about events that completely destroy civilization. In the post-nuclear age that's all we are able to conceive as far as man-made disasters, but the method by which our science has developed is not the only way possible.

I could believe that there are many, many things conceived of in the minds of men that are more powerful and more terrible than nuclear weapons. I can't help but think that within the past 500,000 years of human civilization that we've not only brought a few into reality, but also used them.

Regardless of those events, 200,000 years ago it was a meteor, period.

[skunk]

You might be interested in the vedic texts as well.

It is my belief we've been around for a few million years, with at least a few hundred thousands years of 'civilization', albeit we've been destroyed several times already.

[Chorlton]

Thank you, Cog.

At least you don't buy into the
"we nuked ourselves" scenario.

I lean more towards the distinct metaphysical changes along with cessation of importation of Spotted Dick

[Chorlton]

The ancient deity "Bes" is also seen as a link between cultures.....said to be shown by the Maori in the design of the "Tiki"........I'll throw it up next post



Maybe 7ft tall Nikolai was related? He looks a bit primeval

[boycotteverything]

You might be interested in the vedic texts as well.

It is my belief we've been around for a few million years, with at least a few hundred thousands years of 'civilization', albeit we've been destroyed several times already.The source that cogburn cites (and then ignores), Michael Cremo, would agree with you. Cremo dates human civialtion back to at least the Pliocene (5 million years BC.) His point of departure is Vedic.

[Cogburn]

I'm not so much ignoring his information, as I still find error with some of his deductions of time, specifically in the dating of pre-20th century discoveries. Most of Cremo's argument is logical only, and even though it is due to circumstance, it still brings the validity of the claims into question. Further, we know that hominid man existed for millions of years, yet no care is done to place bone fragments properly within the evolutionary tree: no sufficient argument is made for the assumption that all such bone fragments are homo sapien. Section 6.2.6.3 "The Hubbs Skull Fragment" is an excellent example of this.

Combining Cremo's research with that found elsewhere, I can't extend back the modern human family any further than half a million years, with some interesting outlying evidence. I also refuse to believe that all other species of human were mentally retarded or otherwise non-sentient.

I view Cremo like the Charles Fort of our time: he has merely collected evidence contrary to the accepted narrative in one place and then allows us to reconstruct our own narrative based on our own intelligence and experience.

Granted, my 500,000 figure is a rough eyeball, for to go through Cremo's work with a fine tooth comb would be a book in and of itself.

[KIWI]

Thank you, Cog.

At least you don't buy into the
"we nuked ourselves" scenario.


I think Lex (man is this ever a self indictment 8) ).....along the same lines as Cog.....that we have as a race peaked and fallen many times over.....and at times the cause has been self-anihilation......this I dont think was ever on a "global" scale, but there is no reason why it need be considered so....

We are a herd animal, and gather and advance in "localised" areas.....take out these "areas" through wars ( the vedic texts are one example) and the result would be to retard the advancement of us as a whole......

Have a look around today.....there are technical facilities on the cutting edge of what is the "latest" in advanced thinking......while outside the facility perimeter fence we can find people herding and tending animals in a way that has been unchanged for millenia....

one place of interest that I have been meaning to take a closer look at is China..

the pic showing the cave is a real puzzler, you can see the rusted "pipe" passing through the stone.......to me that rock looks like it was at one time "molten"....while the pipe was in situ?....but then Im faced with the problem of temps high enough to liquify the rock.....but not distort the pipe?......whatever the scenario its another "odd" place on our planet

The Baigong "Pipes"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2157716/posts



.....Locals, residing forty kilometers southeast of Qinghai's Delingha city, have known of the pipes for centuries. They credit aliens for their construction, and even have legends of extraterrestrial visitors to Mt. Baigong. Although the stories are met with predictable skepticism, they become harder to laugh off when one takes in the sixty-meter pyramid near the mountain's summit. Superficially, the pyramid could be shrugged off as having been shaped by natural forces. For some reason, however, the structure has not been conclusively studied, at least officially.

[attachment=2:1113zsib]pipes.jpg[/attachment:1113zsib]

Near the foot of Mt. Baigong lie three caves, the largest and most accessible some eight meters high by six meters deep. Inside, spanning from the roof to the back end of the cave, runs a pipe 40 cm in diameter. Another one roughly the same size runs into the earth from the floor, with just the top protruding.



[attachment=0:1113zsib]iron_pipe_4.jpg[/attachment:1113zsib]

A piece of Baigong pipe



The pipes, according to tests carried out at a local smeltery, are made chiefly of iron, but with an unusual thirty percent silicon dioxide in their matrix. They are also centuries old, if Xinhua and its source, Liu Shaolin, the engineer who carried out preliminary tests, are to be believed. Strange, but easily written off as a bizarre metallurgical operation by some nomads with too much time on their hands, assuming geological origins of the eerily symmetrical pyramid.



However, dozens of pipe openings have been discovered in the mountains far above the caves. Now these nomads must be credited with some advanced system of drilling since forgotten, as there is no modern industry in the area nor record of such. Not far from the foot of Baigong sits Toson Lake, on whose beach run many more iron pipes in unlikely patterns and in a variety of diameters, toothpick-sized at the thinnest. More pipes are in the lake, some protruding above the water surface, others buried beneath the lake's bed.

[attachment=1:1113zsib]caves.jpg[/attachment:1113zsib]


Although nine Chinese scientists were reportedly dispatched to make a detailed analysis of the pipes in 2002, there has been no further information. This hasn't prevented local government from promoting the site as a tourist attraction. A CCTV crew went to Mt. Baigong soon after, accompanied by researchers from the Beijing UFO Research Association, but no record or footage of the expedition has come to our attention. If this is because such documentation would be widely laughed off, then they would at the expense of Yang Ji, a research fellow of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences who told Xinhua that the extraterrestrial theory was "understandable and worth looking into".



Then again, plain old terrestrial science has many mysteries left to be fully explained. Similar pipe-like structures have been found in the Jurassic sandstone of the Southwestern United States, as well as in Citronelle formations in Louisiana. No pyramids have been found close on, and researchers have concluded that they were formed through natural processes. But similar conclusions from scientists studying the Baigong pipes have yet to be announced, six years later.

[Lexion]

Those "pipes" look an awful lot
like mineral deposits.

This brings up another question
I have about supposed ancient
technological societies.

We find dinosaur bones, but no
ancient tech.

Hmmmmm.

I also find it odd that the majority
of OOP artifact sites are Christians
screaming the Earth is 6k years
old.

Maybe I'm just too jaded.

[KIWI]

...its a mess alright....our history, there are in fact a few egyptian artifacts been discovered in both NZ and Aust.....as well as other cultural similarities drawn


the reason for egyptian similarities is easy, the egyptians hired the phoenicians for nearly all of their maritime trading and exploration. the phoenicians would have assimilated some egyptian characteristics into their culture.
it's my be;lief however that the phoenicians were exploring and trading around the world even before their contact and utilisation by egypt.

dare i say it but it's my belief that the phoenicians are somehow connected to the Atlantis mythos.

shit bro....wish I had your confidence! :smokin:

[attachment=0:26ur42og]BesHat.jpg[/attachment:26ur42og]

[Cogburn]

Lex, the problem may lie in your definition of a "technological society" and the expectation of what we, as modern humans, might find as remains of such a society.

First, are we that different than the Romans, or have we simply evolved along technological lines that allow us to be "Roman" with ever increasing levels of efficiency?

Think of it this way: all of the requisite material requirements for the "accidental" discovery of AM radio have been existent since humanity learned to mine and smelt ore. Much in the same manner as the "accidental" discovery of the fermentation process, it is quite conceivable that a "happy accident" could have occurred in which the properties of radio waves were discovered prior to the discovery of electricity. This would be completely opposite as to how the technology developed in our society, but is still equally probable.

As to what might be left for us to find, human beings are excellent scavengers. You seem to express the expectation that human beings would just leave large chunks of usable materials lying around for thousands of years, or that they would take pains to document the discoveries prior to such recycling. With such an assumption, one might then postulate that the earliest recorded cultures may have been built upon the recycled remains of earlier civilizations. We in fact know that this is the case, time and time again, around the world. There's nothing for us to find because we already turned it into plows, swords and necklaces 5,000 or more years ago.

[KIWI]

Those "pipes" look an awful lot
like mineral deposits.

This brings up another question
I have about supposed ancient
technological societies.

We find dinosaur bones, but no
ancient tech.

Hmmmmm.

I also find it odd that the majority
of OOP artifact sites are Christians
screaming the Earth is 6k years
old.

Maybe I'm just too jaded.

if your over 30yr old and "NOT" jaded......you havnt done it right 8)

no prob there......to be "open" is all thats required, look at how the shit from NZ, the skeletons etc...are simply whisked off and destroyed????????

this day and age???????

right under our noses?????

can you begin to imagine what else has been "lost" of our true past?

heres a bit on the Paluxey "tracks" Lex

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/paluxy.htm

very vague marks and not saying its what its claimed to be.....will try and find a pic I have of a shoe print, showing stitching in (I think it was?) a hunk of coal

I will find a link I have to a book on SCRIBD that deals with hidden archeology

[Lexion]

Cog, I just don't buy into the
fact that it all got recycled.

Too pat, for my taste.

I appreciate the free thinking,
and find it interesting, but I
just don't buy it.

I'm guessing the human foot
print next to a dinosaur print
gets thrown in, now.

Or, the sandal print with the
fossil of a long extinct mussel
imprinted on it.

I'm not ignorant of these things,
I just don't believe them.

Edit to add :
I'm fucking psychic.

[boycotteverything]

Then again, plain old terrestrial science has many mysteries left to be fully explained. Similar pipe-like structures have been found in the Jurassic sandstone of the Southwestern United States, as well as in Citronelle formations in Louisiana.That would even make Cremo blush. 200 million years. And why not?

[Cogburn]

Dino-toilets?

Lex, the big stuff is gone. We're still finding little stuff that was out of reach of our ancestors. Otherwise Cremo wouldn't have had 1/3 of his book.

[KIWI]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7262295/Recent-Archeological-Finds-Confirming-Vedic-History

this book below I have an original copy of Lex, interesting read

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8987692/Mysteries-of-Ancient-South-America

this is also a great read Lex......if you have the time I would make this the first read.....deals with a lot of the US oddities

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15575656/Eisen-Suppressed-Inventions-Other-Discoveries-True-Stories-of-Suppression-Scientific-ups-Misinformation-and-Brilliant-Breakthroughs-2001

I cant find the "coal" shoeprint but will scan it from my book and throw it up later

[mojo]

We find dinosaur bones, but no
ancient tech.


technology can take many forms and may not neccesarilt mean cars, concrete jungles and glass.
technology could run along the lines of genetic manipulation, organic computers, housing integrated into flora or underground.
who knows what direction scientific invention may have taken given a different set of circumstances 50,000 or 250000 years ago.

although it's fiction a series of books that explains how a technologically advanced society could have existed millenia ago and remain unkown through the archaeological record are the Eden series by Harry Harrison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Eden

[offsite:1nso6uni]In the Earth that exists in this novel, the asteroid that struck Earth 65 million years ago causing the mass extinction level event which wiped-out most of the reptiloids never happened, leaving the way clear for an intelligent dinosaur species to eventually evolve from the mosasaur branch (this is an error by the author, as mosasaurs are not dinosaurs but a species of reptile related to the modern monitor lizards, meaning that Yilane are not dinosaur-people but lizard-people).

These lizard-people are known as the Yilané, who become the dominant lifeform on most of the planet. During their evolutionary process, the species became non-viable on the two American continents, leaving them free of Yilané for millions of years.

Humanity, however, evolved there (and only there), and by the time the novel begins have reached a late stone age level of technology and culture.

The Yilané have a very advanced society, which is primarily based on a mastery of the biological sciences, especially genetic engineering, so much so that almost every tool and artifact they use is a modified lifeform. Their boats were originally squids, their submarines are enhanced ichthyosaurs (here called uruketos), and their guns are evolved monitor lizards which eject projectiles using pressurised gas.

The Yilané are a matriarchal society. The females control all political, military, and scientific aspects of the culture and keep the males segregated. Males are primarily poets and artisans, and enjoy dull, pampered lifestyles, but repeated matings will kill them, so they are very wary of the females. The Yilané language is incredibly complex, based on both sounds and body movements, and a key factor in social status among females is how well the language is mastered.[/offsite:1nso6uni]

http://www.amazon.com/West-Eden-Harry-Harrison/dp/0553050656

West of Eden, Winter in Eden and Return to Eden.

really good read.