View Full Version : Socialized Healthcare - Would Paying More Taxes Do The Trick
Ducky
09-06-2009, 02:49 AM
Seems to be a VERY touchy subject as of late.
The point is...Who wants to pay more taxes?
However, if paying more taxes meant that you are discluded from:
* Paying for Doctor's visits
* Paying for X-rays and other procedures of the like
* Paying for Transplants
* Paying for birthing children
* Paying for Operations
* Paying for medical bills whatsoever
Would you do it?
Obviously, private rooms and private 'this and that' are extra (covered under private insurance) but wouldn't the extra taxes alleviate the financial stresses of basic health care as listed above?
Oblivion
09-06-2009, 10:07 AM
Seems to be a VERY touchy subject as of late.
The point is...Who wants to pay more taxes?
However, if paying more taxes meant that you are discluded from:
* Paying for Doctor's visits
* Paying for X-rays and other procedures of the like
* Paying for Transplants
* Paying for birthing children
* Paying for Operations
* Paying for medical bills whatsoever
Would you do it?
Obviously, private rooms and private 'this and that' are extra (covered under private insurance) but wouldn't the extra taxes alleviate the financial stresses of basic health care as listed above?
in Oz we pay a "medicare levy" when we do our tax's each year.
of course you get basic emergency treatment at hospitals but not voluntary procedures.
eg, do your knee at footy and you join the queue as you should have had private cover.
break a limb in a car smash, and theyll admit you straight in.
most shit is covered, but not everything.
you cant get voluntary surgery (eg labiaplasty, rhinoplasty, face lift etc) but your GP can send you for some things.
eg ive had xrays, CTscans, seen specialists, gone to hospital every morning for one week for blood tests, etc and never paid a cent... and they werent life threatening but was for diagnosis of a medical condition... which i treated as per doc's recommendation for about 2mth before i decided i'd rather just live the way i was before diagnosis....
sometimes you may have to pay a small gap of 50 bucks or something.. like my wife and her achilles tendon. she had ultrasounds on it and had to pay about 100 of a 500 bill, purely because it wasnt life threatening or serious to her health.
im not sure of all the ins and outs, i doubt many understand medicare fully.. but it works reasonably well and i sure dont ever want to go to US's version of health care but that does seem the way things are headed :(
Eyeforalie
09-06-2009, 01:00 PM
No. We pay enough taxes for useless shit. Maybe we should stop blowing up cities in the middle east looking for a wet spot. Maybe we should stop bailing out failing buissness.
We shouldn't even be talking about this healthcare nonsence.
Everyone line up for your shots!
Fuck socialized healthcare.
Fuck Obama.
Fuck big guberment.
Fuck taxation without representation.
Lexion
09-06-2009, 01:38 PM
I voted no. (imagine that)
The Healthcare issue has been
spun into an "insurance" issue.
Anyone else catch that ?
All this hoopla is to draw attention
away from the real issue.
The economy.
Fuck healthcare for the time being.
Sort the economy first.
boycotteverything
09-06-2009, 02:04 PM
I'm way for it. Pay for it by reducing the war department by 80%. Instead of training killers train healers. A hundred thousand new doctors a year. Government run medical school free to all comers. Build it in Detroit to replace the car industry. Extend medicare to cover all Americans. No insurance companies. Simple enough.
boycotteverything
09-06-2009, 02:32 PM
And what should this new medical college curricula consist of? Allopathy, Homeopathy, Naturopathy, Chiropractic, Osteopathy, Native American healing techniques- all the healing arts. Let them all compete and combine and gain the respect of their patients. Compensation should be the same as a teacher's. The insurance based system can exist side by side with the People's system- but it will fail within a year. Let the insurance parasites hang our drywall and pick our cabbage.
Out with the old ways of thinking about heath-care and in with the new. "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Einstein
Martian Exile
09-06-2009, 04:16 PM
The Healthcare issue has been
spun into an "insurance" issue.
Out law insurance and the cost of medical care comes down. It's an idiot test. Outlaw the AMA too.
I agree with BE, flood the market with medical people, the price will come down.
Insurance is a huge scam. Look at the current price hikes for premiums. People paying more for insurance then a place to live.
Cogburn
09-06-2009, 04:41 PM
And what should this new medical college curricula consist of? Allopathy, Homeopathy, Naturopathy, Chiropractic, Osteopathy, Native American healing techniques- all the healing arts. Let them all compete and combine and gain the respect of their patients. Compensation should be the same as a teacher's. The insurance based system can exist side by side with the People's system- but it will fail within a year. Let the insurance parasites hang our drywall and pick our cabbage.
Out with the old ways of thinking about heath-care and in with the new. "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Einstein
ROFL... I'd rather not be bled by leeches.
I'll take my risks with the scientific method, thanks.
Lexion
09-06-2009, 04:50 PM
Insurance is a huge scam. Look at the current price hikes for premiums. People paying more for insurance then a place to live.
I'm torn here.
I agree and disagree.
When working, my insurance was
pretty cheap. About $200 a month
for single.
My wifes is free where she works.
Let's talk about car insurance, though.
Most companies carry both. And, Home
Owners, Renters and Life.
No idea how much I pay a month for
Home-Owners or Car.
But, I've been paying both in Louisiana
for around 20 years.
Never made a claim on either.
Scam ?
Not really. After all, it's insurance.
Yet, it's a mandatory insurance.
Never heard anyone complain about it.
Currently, our Govt. is moving to make
Health Insurance mandatory in some way
or another. Details not worked out, yet.
Outcry ? Yep.
Why ?
Because it's the Fed. Govt. Not Local or
State.
I'm against the Fed. Govt. controlling
anything.
It should be Local, then State, then Fed
if required.
Again, this conversation is a smoke-screen.
Moot point at the moment.
Focus should be on the economy.
Meh, maybe I'm just rambling.
(free shot, BE)
We pay a basicfee here, but it mainly free . . . .an accident is just sorted . . . there is a mix bag of medical care here, a lot of natural remedy's, you can try what you like . . . or go main stream . . .
I find it hard to understand how a medical professional can walk on by when someone needs help . . .or anyone for that matter . . . you can not be cruel to animals and can get done for not providing medical treatment . . .but fuck your fellow man . . .seems twisted . . . . :D
Cogburn
09-06-2009, 06:44 PM
. . .but fuck your fellow man . . .seems twisted . . . . :DWhich is the point.
Healthcare isn't a "problem" to be "solved", as most view it.
It is a well and correctly justified expansion upon the fundamental human rights as set forth in the Constitution, which is only afforded by our increase in knowledge in the past 200 years.
At the time the Constitution was written, slavery was a necessary compromise. The conceptualization of the national benefits a universally healthy society were beyond the means for those men, no matter how great, to consider.
Just because we have actually managed to find an issue whereby we might, for once, legislate an actual improvement to the noble thoughts that founded this nation does not mean that it is the slippery slope toward socialism.
The debate over anything other than how to pay for it, to me, seems worthless.
Oblivion
09-06-2009, 07:10 PM
. .
I find it hard to understand how a medical professional can walk on by when someone needs help . . .or anyone for that matter . . . you can not be cruel to animals and can get done for not providing medical treatment . . .but fuck your fellow man . . .seems twisted . . . . :D
we had a case here about 2 yrs ago, theres a local clinic ive always despised for treating people like sheep. in-out-in-out.
anyway some old boy who lived nearby started having a heart attack, daughter rushed daddy to the nearest clinic for help (europa clinic) and you know what the fuckers did?
they closed the fucking doors on them, because they rang in advance and notified staff they were on their way.. so staff said FUCK we dont want him dying in here, that falls back on us...
so they locked the doors and let him die on their doorstep, while the daughter begged and pleaded to be let in or have assistance from their docs.
its a fucked up situation when a doc who has the skills to save a life decides to turn them away for fear of litigation or having "one die" in his clinic.
we had a case here about 2 yrs ago, theres a local clinic ive always despised for treating people like sheep. in-out-in-out.
anyway some old boy who lived nearby started having a heart attack, daughter rushed daddy to the nearest clinic for help (europa clinic) and you know what the fuckers did?
they closed the fucking doors on them, because they rang in advance and notified staff they were on their way.. so staff said FUCK we dont want him dying in here, that falls back on us...
so they locked the doors and let him die on their doorstep, while the daughter begged and pleaded to be let in or have assistance from their docs.
its a fucked up situation when a doc who has the skills to save a life decides to turn them away for fear of litigation or having "one die" in his clinic.
Did the doctor/office, go down for it ? . . . Hope so . . . .I can imagine there would of been quite a carry on regardless . . . :D
pack3tg0st
09-07-2009, 02:58 AM
It is a well and correctly justified expansion upon the fundamental human rights as set forth in the Constitution, which is only afforded by our increase in knowledge in the past 200 years.
Whoa there... no its not... I've seen no constitutional amendments proposed, nor is there any clause in the constitution regarding anything remotely close to this... if there were, this whole debate/decision would be up to the supreme court.
At the time the Constitution was written, slavery was a necessary compromise. The conceptualization of the national benefits a universally healthy society were beyond the means for those men, no matter how great, to consider.
We're currently worse off than our founding fathers were... Humanity isn't a continuum of constant improvement man... instead, humanity just is... the zeitgeist will slide based on what the majority feel "important". We are no better off, or worse off than our forefathers... we're just "different".
Just because we have actually managed to find an issue whereby we might, for once, legislate an actual improvement to the noble thoughts that founded this nation does not mean that it is the slippery slope toward socialism.
:lol:
We're socialist already... get over it... but besides that point...
This Health insurance bill (not healthcare... they dropped that idea already) is going to suck donkey balls...
how do I know?
Its being supported by the AMA and some of the insurance lobby...
yah...
The debate over anything other than how to pay for it, to me, seems worthless.[/quote]
Cogburn
09-07-2009, 04:25 AM
Why would it be necessary to amend the Constitution acknowledge a human right left unconsidered? You misunderstand its function in our society if you think that's necessary. Were that the case, rape victims would go unpunished because for a woman to be free from the unwanted sexual aggression of men would require a Constitutional amendment.
The Constitution limits the power of government over the individual, as well as provide for what are the basics of running our system of government. That does not mean that new systems cannot be created, otherwise Congress would be unnecessary.
You'll notice I'm not supporting the current legislation as proposed. I am in favor of a single payer system with enhancement via workplace benefits.
I don't have much hope. The last time a President was able to slay a beast this big was the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
Something else that wasn't provided for in the Constitution as it could not be foreseen by our founders, I might add.
EDIT: Those "basics" I mentioned made our form of government partially socialist from the beginning. They never mentioned AmTrack in the Constitution, either. However that is a far cry from claiming our government is based on a socialist philosophy, not that we are in any greater proportion than 200 years ago a socialist state.
Oblivion
09-07-2009, 04:28 AM
Did the doctor/office, go down for it ? . . . Hope so . . . .I can imagine there would of been quite a carry on regardless . . . :D
nope, not at all.
a little bit of a bad wrap for a day or two, then everyone forgot.
pack3tg0st
09-07-2009, 04:37 AM
EDIT: Those "basics" I mentioned made our form of government partially socialist from the beginning. They never mentioned AmTrack in the Constitution, either. However that is a far cry from claiming our government is based on a socialist philosophy, not that we are in any greater proportion than 200 years ago a socialist state.
Medicare/Medicaid, Social security, Welfare, WIC, Unemployment Insurance, Food Stamps, Housing and Urban Development (government homes), Farm Subsidization etc etc
Those are all socialist programs.
Not complaining about them... but anyone who didn't think we were socialist needs to step back and look at the U.S. during the last 60 or so years...
Cogburn
09-07-2009, 05:00 AM
Again I say all things in proportion.
A true measure of a socialist state is the amount of money redistributed through purely government administered functions, as opposed to redistributed to corporations through the fulfillment of contracts.
Kleptarchy still trumps socialism in a dollar-per-dollar comparison when competing for the title of Chief Ill of Our Society.
boycotteverything
09-07-2009, 08:58 AM
'Socialism' is is a slogan. That America has an evolving 'social contract' is the issue. True democracy is seen by progressives as 'economic democracy' which requires, among other things, redistribution as well a equal opportunity and expansion of rights. Call that Socialism if it makes you happy, but in the American political dialectic it's really nothing other than the Democratic platform since the time of FDR.
skunk
09-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Eye you took the point I was going to make, as in we don't need to be wasting money in foreign wars and on bankers, and then killed it.
Right now we as a nation cannot probably afford another $1 trillion in taxes. That doesn't mean we can't afford it. We just need to get our priorities straight.
Hundreds of billions to a few trillion has already spent on the Iraq war depending on who you listen to. I would have much rather had that money be spent on peace and taking care of people than destroying a country only to build it back up again for profit.
Would I want "socialized healthcare"? What does that mean exactly? I'm not a huge fan of socialism or capitalism to be honest, but I do happen to believe healthcare is something that everyone deserves.
I am not for raising taxes however.
What I am for is cutting our defense budget and getting rid of other unnecessary departments (there's too many to go into right now) and paying for healthcare that way.
Its not a question of can we afford it, its a question of what do we want to do without so we can all be relatively healthy?
skunk
09-07-2009, 12:11 PM
Kleptarchy still trumps socialism in a dollar-per-dollar comparison when competing for the title of Chief Ill of Our Society.
Ha I like it.
Ducky
09-07-2009, 12:30 PM
What I am for is cutting our defense budget and getting rid of other unnecessary departments (there's too many to go into right now) and paying for healthcare that way
OOOOoo weeeeeee :D But...would your military go for something like that? THAT'S the question all along.
More taxes are pulled from consumers to keep your military going, than anything else.
This site seems dedicated to war (http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml)
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/CanuckyDucky/ustaxpiechart.png
skunk
09-07-2009, 12:32 PM
Yeah and that chart doesn't even show the black budget military spending.
The MIC want nothing to do with health care, unless they can make a few million off insurance.
Hundreds of billions to a few trillion has already spent on the Iraq war depending on who you listen to. I would have much rather had that money be spent on peace and taking care of people than destroying a country only to build it back up again for profit.
Most of America is for this war stuff. The people keep voting in politicians who agree and support the action.
Most of America needs to look in the mirror and blame them self instead of some politician. That would put ass hats like Rush out of business.
Ed:clarify war point
boycotteverything
09-07-2009, 01:00 PM
Ed:clarify war pointThat point was made earlier in this thread. Hard to see how it was missed by posters who arrived a tad later. I think it's a point that you and I agree on, HP.
I'm way for it. Pay for it by reducing the war department by 80%. Instead of training killers train healers. A hundred thousand new doctors a year. Government run medical school free to all comers. Build it in Detroit to replace the car industry. Extend medicare to cover all Americans. No insurance companies. Simple enough.