Before Columbus / Ivan Van Sertima

[century]

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[century]

The Moors Before Columbus


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[century]

www.AfricanHistoryNetwork.com:geek:

[Silly Sausage]

Damn I don't have time to listen to the whole thing...

I think there's some evidence that even the Chinese reached the Americas before CC.

Google: Shang Olmec and have a look at the similarities between some of the carvings. A guy called Mike Xu's done some work on it.

Here's a good starter page but there's better out there:

http://www.members.tripod.com/~kon_artz/cultures/olmshang.htm

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=18472

[skunk]

1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/140004006X)

[WITCH HUNT]

Century, I love this thread! The whole before Columbus debate is very topical now and I am glad that this thread made through the cross-over to the new software.

I have always been a proponent of an African seafaring civilization beating Columbus to the new world. I only wish there was more evidence available for peer review!

My personal view is that the Chinese beat everyone here by about 5,000 years. The Chinese have been an organized culture longer than anything in the Middle East or Africa. The oldest known system of writing, oldest records of seafaring and organized farming are all Chinese!

I mention China because in one of the videos there is a giant Costa Rican head that Dr. Van Sertima says is clearly indicative African features. He points to a ponytail as the final piece of proof. What he doesn't say and what is not said by any member of the African History Network is that there were native Americans that had and still have "African" facial features. There were and still are Asians with features similar to Africans. I am not saying that Africans didn't come to the new world, I am just saying that the Chinese beat them.

[Lexion]

The Chinese have been an organized culture longer than anything in the Middle East or Africa. The oldest known system of writing, oldest records of seafaring and organized farming are all Chinese!

Playing Devils Advocate.

Where are the maps or other
docs related to their travel
to North or South America ?

The Chinese documented everything,
in great detail.

[skunk]

Chinese Admiral Zheng He supposedly traveled to the new world with his massive fleet, according to Gavin Menzies.

China.org.cn (http://china.org.cn/english/Life/52176.htm)

[Lexion]

Thanks, Skunk.

Seems they have circumstantial
evidence, which is pretty cool.

You know me, though.

I'd like to see maps and docs.

:)

[skunk]

The “Liu/Menzies” World Map: A Critique (PDF) (http://www.e-perimetron.org/Vol_2_4/Wade.pdf)

A Chinese world map purportedly drawn in 1763, and allegedly based on an earlier version of 1418, was brought to public notice in early 2006 by Mr Gavin Menzies, author of 1421: the Year China Discovered the World, and Mr Liu Gang, the map’s owner. This map has been used to sug- gest that Chinese navigators circumnavigated and mapped the world in the early 15th century and that dual hemisphere maps were first created in China. The present article provides a context for the sudden appearance of this map, and its apparent evidence for Ming Chinese circumnavigation of the globe. Through a detailed examination of the cartographic elements on the “1763” map and its alleged 1418 precursor, the many anachronisms and other errors are set down. By demonstrat- ing and enumerating the numerous impossibilities reflected in the representations of both China and the rest of the globe, it is concluded that the map is a modern fake.

Zheng He wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He)

The 1763 map:

http://amkon.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=262&stc=1&d=1264091891

[Lexion]

Reading the PDF, now.

Sounds like Menzies is a
scam artist.

[skunk]

Reading the PDF, now.

Sounds like Menzies is a
scam artist.

The more likely scenario is that the map's original owner, Liu Gang, is the scam artist :)

[Lexion]

There is that.

But, Menzies is promoting it.

Either knowingly, or out of
stupidity.

Still reading.

(thanks for re-sizing that
map pic !!)

[Cogburn]

The evidence against the map can be divided into a number of areas. First some general statements are in order. The map is drawn in a dual-hemisphere format, a European cartographic tradition beginning in the early 16th century.17 Some have claimed that this map was, at least in part, copied from a 17th-century European map, as California is represented as an island. However, as China is placed at the centre of the map -- as it was in early Jesuit maps of the world produced in China -- it is more likely that it is a rough copy of a Jesuit-inspired Chinese map of the world...
In eastern Europe, there is an annotation within a red border which notes: "The people here all worship God (shang-di) and their religion is called 'Jing'." The term “shang-di” in reference to the Christian God was adopted by the Jesuits only in the late 16th century, and the recognition in China of Nestorianism (“Jing”) as a branch of Christianity occurred only in the early 17th century. There is no possible way that these could have appeared in this context on a 15th-century map.
The Chinese provincial names Hu-bei and Hu-nan are given in their modern locations. In 1418, these provinces had not even been created, and the areas were part of the predecessor province of Hu-guang.
Whoops.

[Lexion]

Whoops.

Whoops indeed.

[WITCH HUNT]

You know me, though.

I'd like to see maps and docs.

:)

So would I, unfortunately there is very little that can stand peer review it seems. Well Western peer review that is. You would think with the P.R push China made during it's olympics you would have heard more about their Navy. All I remember is a special on the National Geogrphic Channel. :(

[century]

Thanks, Skunk.

Seems they have circumstantial
evidence, which is pretty cool.

You know me, though.

I'd like to see maps and docs.

:)

Lex the guks are more meticulous than the colords, if you know what .........:eek:

[WITCH HUNT]

I don't know how old this is or if it has been posted before, or if it is what you want, .... but it's all I got right now.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_chinese_map_debut

[WITCH HUNT]

Not about China but interesting.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/53219/title/Ancient_hominids_may_have_been_seafarers

[century]

I don't know how old this is or if it has been posted before, or if it is what you want, .... but it's all I got right now.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_chinese_map_debut

All I want is your opinion in return but the links will suffice :razz:thank you crusader :viking:

[skunk]

Thanks for the two links WITCH, really interesting articles.

The Matteo Ricci map of the world (1602):

http://www.riccicenter.com/maps/map_world01.JPG

http://www.riccicenter.com/maps/index-maps.htm

[century]

the move toward globalization might have gone easier had the powers that be not hidden
the circumference of the earth.

[WITCH HUNT]

I was unable to retrieve my favorites file the last time my computer crashed. In it I had 4 links about this subject including the university webpage of a professor in Taiwan who found what he believed the remains of chinese ships and writing on 4 continents. I tried searching for him but all I remember about his name is that there were about 17 letters in it and half of them were u's.

Still searching though.

[Lexion]

I tried searching for him but all I remember about his name is that there were about 17 letters in it and half of them were u's.



I just shot tea out of my nose.

Thanks.

[century]

http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/lostcivilizations/head.jpg
VITAL CLUES: One of the massive Olmec stone heads in Mexico displaying negro features - these suggest the presence of black Africans in the Americas as early as 1200 BC
http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/lostcivilizations/trans.gif
Have we finally found Atlantis
By Dominic Utton The fabled "Lost City" of Atlantis is one of mankind's greatest and most enduring mysteries. First written of 2,350 years ago by the Greek philosopher Plato in his works the Timaeus and the Critias, the island beneath the sea has fascinated historians, poets, and the public ever since, but has remained tantalisingly hidden, shrouded in myth, legend and exaggeration.
However, a new book by acclaimed historian Andrew Collins provides for the first time a clear argument for the civilisation's existence and a pointer to its location.
Plato described Atlantis as an empire founded by the sea god Poseidon on a land mass the size of "Libya and Asia put together". It possessed a thriving capital, with sumptuous palaces, royal courts and harbours constantly receiving vessels from all over the world. For many generations, it ruled the Atlantic Ocean as well as parts of what Plato called "the opposite continent", what we now know as the Americas.
Its downfall came when its masters set their sights on conquering the Mediterranean. The Greeks rose in defiance and, in a terrible naval battle, defeated the Atlanteans. In the wake of this defeat, the god Zeus unleashed earthquakes and floods and submerged the island of Atlantis in a single "terrible day and night". Plato gives two dates for this catastrophe: 8,570 BC in the Timaeus, and 9,421 BC in the Critias.
More than 2,000 books have been written about Plato's lost kingdom, placing it in the Americas, the mid-Atlantic, North Africa, Northern Europe and Antarctica. The current favourite location in academic circles is Crete.
But Collins says we must look for Atlantis in the place where Plato said it was all along: the Atlantic. In the Critias, he records that the island had a vast, irrigated plain that "stretched for three thousand stadia [552km] in one direction, and at its centre, for two thousand [368km] inland from the coast". To the north, west and east were "mountain ranges" stretching to the shoreline, and the southern end of the plain was at sea level and housed the great capitol. Plato was thus describing an east-west oriented island, perhaps as little as 700km by 400km in size.
The great size attributed to Atlantis by Plato refers not to the "home" island, but to the extent of the empire over which the Kings of Atlantis held dominion. The Empire consisted of a series of islands that lay in front of the "opposite continent". But if the opposite continent was the Americas, and thus the series of islands referred to situated on the West Atlantic seaboard, then how could Plato, writing in 350 BC, know of their existence? After all, America was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1492.
Yet there is evidence to suggest that there was transatlantic contact thousands of years before Columbus. In Paris in 1976, the mummy of Egyptian Pharaoh Rameses II was found to contain tobacco. The implications were clear; the tobacco plant, thought to have been introduced to the west by Sir Walter Raleigh was known in the Ancient World as early as 1200 BC. In 1992, the German toxicologist Svetlana Balabanova examined mummies in the Munich Museum. Extensive evidence was found of high amounts of cocaine having been absorbed into the bodies. Cocaine is the active ingredient of the coca plant, native only to the Americas. Thus the possibility stands that coca leaves were being imported to Ancient Egypt via transoceanic contact with the Americas.
Also, in the eastern provinces of Mexico are great stone heads, each weighing several tonnes, positioned at the centres of the Olmec peoples who thrived between 1200 and 400 BC. They display Negroid features, suggesting the presence of black Africans in the American continent at this time. Other statues show Semitic features, suggesting contact with Mediterranean seafarers.
AND the evidence mounts. As a consequence of the submergence of Atlantis, Plato tells us "the outer ocean [the Atlantic] cannot be crossed or explored, the way being blocked by mud, just below the surface, left by the settling down of the island". This can only have been what we call the Sargasso Sea; the free floating seaweed stretching between the Azores and the Bahamas. The Bahamas are notorious for shallow banks and take their name from the Spanish "baja mar", meaning shallow sea.
It seems certain, concludes Collins, that Plato's Atlantis was on the western Atlantic seaboard, somewhere in the Caribbean. In the Timaeus, Plato tells us the island was situated within easy reach of other islands that acted like stepping stones for voyagers. Such a description matches the chains of the Caribbean. The idea that Atlantis may have been in the Caribbean is not new. In 1798, Italian scholar Paul Cabrera identified Atlantis with Hispaniola, or Haiti and the Dominican Republic as the land mass is now called. He thought so "not only on account of its position and magnitude exceeding all others, but also from its fertility and numerous navigable rivers".
However, he picked the wrong island. Plato tells us "the district as a whole...was of great elevation and its coast precipitous", an adequate enough description of Hispaniola's mountainous coastline. However, the island had no strategic importance to seafarers, unlike neighbouring Cuba, whose many lobe-like bays made for better ports. Furthermore, Cuba's coastal waters guard the northerly and southerly entrances to the Gulf of Mexico, making it ideal for journeys to Mexico or North America.
Cabrera's claim that Hispaniola was "in magnitude exceeding all others" is also wrong. At around 640km by 256km, it is around two thirds the size of Cuba. He also mentions Hispaniola's "fertility" and Cuba is the most fertile island of the Caribbean, famous for tobacco and sugar. Cuba also has "numerous navigable rivers".
All this suggests Cuba is the location of Atlantis. According to Plato, "around the city was a plain, enclosing it and itself enclosed in turn by mountain ranges which came down to the sea". The description matches Cuba's western plain, that stretches from Havana westwards to Pinar del Rio. Until around 9,000 years ago, the plain extended southwards, across what is today the bay of Batabano to the Isle of Youth. In other words a great plain, drowned in part during the time Plato wrote of.
And it is the great drowning, the "terrible day and night", that provides the last piece in the puzzle. Just such a cataclysm did annihilate the western Atlantic at the time Plato posits for the destruction of Atlantis.
In around 8500 BC, a comet exploded above North America. The fragments made more than 500,000 craters, known as the Carolina Bays, ranging from a few hundred metres to 11km in length. Each explosion held the force of a small nuclear blast, causing a huge tidal wave drowning the Caribbean and Bahamas. Any great civilisation on Cuba would almost certainly have been razed, ruined, and lost to the sea - as if Zeus himself had struck it down. Gateway to Atlantis, by Andrew Collins with an introduction by David Rohl, published by Headline, at £18.99, is available from The Express Bookshop, 250 Western Avenue, London W3 6EE or call 0870 901 9101.


UFODIGEST (http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/lostcivilizations/index.html)

[mojo]

My personal view is that the Chinese beat everyone here by about 5,000 years. The Chinese have been an organized culture longer than anything in the Middle East or Africa. The oldest known system of writing, oldest records of seafaring and organized farming are all Chinese!


It really is difficult to say exactly who had the oldest system of writing, too many unknowns so i wouldn't be so quick proc;laiming the chinese.
depends how you want to equate it as well, whether you mean pictographs, an alphabet, symbols based on syllables or sounds etc etc.

The invention of the first writing systems is roughly contemporary with the beginning of the Bronze Age (http://amkon.net/wiki/Bronze_Age) in the late Neolithic (http://amkon.net/wiki/Neolithic) of the late 4th millennium BC (http://amkon.net/wiki/4th_millennium_BC). The Sumerian (http://amkon.net/wiki/Sumerian_language) archaic cuneiform script (http://amkon.net/wiki/Cuneiform_(script)) and the Egyptian hieroglyphs (http://amkon.net/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs) are generally considered the earliest writing systems, both emerging out of their ancestral proto-literate symbol systems from 3400–3200 BC with earliest coherent texts from about 2600 BC (http://amkon.net/wiki/26th_century_BC).
The Chinese script (http://amkon.net/wiki/Chinese_script) likely developed independently of the Middle Eastern scripts, around 1600 BC (http://amkon.net/wiki/1600_BC).

The first known examples of writing may have been unearthed at an archaeological dig in Pakistan.
So-called 'plant-like' and 'trident-shaped' markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5500 years.
They were found at a site called Harappa in the region where the great Harappan or Indus civilisation flourished four and a half thousand years ago.


as far as oldest records of seafaring id suggest polynesians or other island cultures would be far older than anything from china.

http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/2010/01/21/palaeolithic-tools-tell-tale-of-ancient-seafaring/

130,000 year old tools found on the Crete are pushing the history of seafaring back by more than 100,000 years.
The oldest uncontested marine crossing until recently was from Indonesia to Australia (http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/tag/australia/), dating to perhaps 60,000 years ago and made by anatomically modern humans of our own species, Homo sapiens, although we now know that earlier settlement (http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/tag/settlement/) on the island of Flores in Indonesia also necessitated a sea-crossing.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article6991643.ece

Evidence for the world’s earliest seafaring has emerged from an archaeological survey in Crete. Tools of Lower Palaeolithic type, at least 130,000 years old, have been found on the Greek island, which has been isolated by the Mediterranean Sea for at least the past five million years, so that any human ancestors must have arrived by boat. At this date, they would have been of a pre-modern species: the earliest Neanderthalers or even Homo heidelbergensis, the species to which Boxgrove Man belonged, are among possible contenders, but no such remains have so far been found on Crete.

"The early inhabitants of Crete reached the island using sea craft capable of open-sea navigation and multiple journeys — a finding that pushes the history of seafaring in the Mediterranean back by more than 100,000 years and has implications for the dispersal of early humans," Professor Curtis Runnels said. The oldest uncontested marine crossing until recently was from Indonesia to Australia, dating to perhaps 60,000 years ago and made by anatomically modern humans of our own species, Homo sapiens, although we now know that earlier settlement on the island of Flores in Indonesia also necessitated a sea-crossing.


and farming and agriculture had its earliest known beginnings in mesopotamia. though i tend to believe the indus valley civilization was contemporaneous with mesoptamia.

http://www.historylink101.com/lessons/farm-city/story-of-farming.htm

The roots of farming began in the areas of present day Turkey and the Middle East about 10,000 years ago. Two of the earliest settlements are known as Catal Hüyük and Jericho. Catal Hüyük had, by 6000 B.C., more then 1000 houses. It is at this place that we have discovered evidence of
people taking wild grasses and using the seeds for food and planting for the next years food. These seeds are now known as cereals and make up a large percentage of the worlds food supply. (18F)



the move toward globalization might have gone easier had the powers that be not hidden the circumference of the earth.

its never been hidden, the sumerians and egyptians calculated it thousands of years ago, its been availabble in various texts ever since.

[WITCH HUNT]

It really is difficult to say exactly who had the oldest system of writing, too many unknowns so i wouldn't be so quick proc;laiming the chinese.
depends how you want to equate it as well, whether you mean pictographs, an alphabet, symbols based on syllables or sounds etc etc.



Very, very true. I am open to other possibilities. I am just glad stories like this are making it to the mainstream media.

[century]

646422939488958030&hl

[century]

African Origins Of Humanity Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
8038982153755741666&hl

[WITCH HUNT]

African Origins Of Humanity Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop
8038982153755741666&hl

Thanks Century, I do believe that Africans crossed the Atlantic. I just don't know if they came from the Med, or from sub-Saharan Africa. As with everything else, there is a glaring lack of documentation about pre- dynastic Egyptian cultures.

One word of caution! Be very wary of any video associated with African History Network! They are not exactly worried about being peer reviewed. They almost had me believing that white people were created in a lab by a wizard named Yakub. It is a shame that Sertima was associated with them!

[century]

They almost had me believing that white people were created in a lab by a wizard named Yakub. It is a shame that Sertima was associated with them!

No fear :thumright:

Just food for thought.

[mojo]

I just don't know if they came from the Med, or from sub-Saharan Africa.

im doubtful of any african trans atlantic crossing by any culture below the nile, more likely mesopotamia or just as likely from the indus valley civilizations.
and probably even earlier than those civilizations, pre 5500bc i'd think island cultures like the polynesians and particularly Palaeolithic humans and also Neolithic humans from the indonesian archipelego.

[GeneralStriker]

im doubtful of any african trans atlantic crossing by any culture below the nile


http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/lostcivilizations/head.jpg
Too dumb to sail?

[mojo]

http://www.ufodigest.com/shadowmag/lostcivilizations/head.jpg
Too dumb to sail?

stop making up your own context to my comments. i never mentioned the word dumb, you did.

the mesopotamian and indus civilizations had the means and imo the requirement to explore outside of their own backyard. many of the african civilizations pre 2500BC didn't need to explore further than their own shores, why would they, all the resources they required they had at hand.
and the picture above is not a representation of an african, the features appear either asian or mongoloid imo.

[Lexion]

the features appear either asian or mongoloid imo.

Or, a boxer with swelled up
features after a fight.

I actually read that, somewhere.

[Kogburn]

Considering how lazy most black people are I highly doubt any of them bothered to sail here, well, unescorted before Columbus of course.

[GeneralStriker]

I could go along with the boxer idea if he weren't wearing a football helmet.

[mojo]

I could go along with the boxer idea if he weren't wearing a football helmet.

are you going to explain to me where i said they were too "dumb to sail".
suggesting that my comments were racist and not based on evidence?

thanks.

[Kogburn]

are you going to explain to me where i said they were too "dumb to sail".
suggesting that my comments were racist and not based on evidence?

thanks.
I believe its actually the racism he himself harbors and projects onto others, its veiled at best and has now been exposed.

And for the record, its a well known fact Chinese and black people all look the same anyway, so its not a big stretch for them both to be fighting over a carved statue of a guy with squinty eyes and a fat lip!

[GeneralStriker]

Jesus- it was a bad joke. I realize now how bad it was and I apologize.

[mojo]

Jesus- it was a bad joke. I realize now how bad it was and I apologize.

OK, no worries.

[Kogburn]

Jesus- it was a bad joke. I realize now how bad it was and I apologize.
Oh! So you were "Just Kidding"... gotcha! :fucku2:

[GeneralStriker]

but you still suck

[mojo]

but you still suck

thats a given.

[WITCH HUNT]

No fear :thumright:

Just food for thought.

HA. It turns out that the man behind the curtain is a bad motherfucker after all! I loved Pulp Fiction!

[skunk]

the mesopotamian and indus civilizations had the means and imo the requirement to explore outside of their own backyard. many of the african civilizations pre 2500BC didn't need to explore further than their own shores, why would they, all the resources they required they had at hand.

Excellent point.

[skunk]

Before Columbus...There was Leif Eriskon (http://www.mnc.net/norway/LeifErikson.htm).

Why do we still have Columbus Day when we have proof he was not the first non-indigenous person to discover the Americas?

I find that quite odd.

[century]

Why do we still have Columbus Day when we have proof he was not the first non-indigenous person to discover the Americas?

I find that quite odd.

Probably the same reason most pictures of Jesus are him as a white man

[WITCH HUNT]

Probably the same reason most pictures of Jesus are him as a white man

Yeah, take that honkies!

[skunk]

Probably the same reason most pictures of Jesus are him as a white man

Are you trying to tell me he's not white? :p

[century]

Are you trying to tell me he's not white? :p

Its plausible theory, maybe he was Italian
s4jz00Eelbk

[skunk]

I think he was an albino stealth-muslim.

[egg]

The Chinese did, indeed, find the Americas before the Columbus. So did the Vikings. Obviously, the American Indian did, too. There is some evidence that the ancient Egyptians did, too - which would account for the pyramids and sun worship in S. America.
Below is some proof for the Chinese. I'll find sites for the other explorers if anyone is interested.



Part VI Annexes - Evidence of Chinese Fleets visit to specific places all round the world

Annex 28 - Evidence of Chinese Fleets visit to Carolinas/ Virginia/ Mississippi/ Illinois/ North Dakota/ Wisconsin and Maine

1. Maps and star charts
· The Upper Mississippi appears on charts drawn before Europeans reached there, viz. Waldseemueller (1507).

2. Chinese Records and Claims
· Chinese claim Zheng He’s fleet reached N. America (Zayan) (Professor Quanzhong).

3. Accounts of contemporary European historians and Explorers
· Columbus describes people who call themselves Indian = Yin Dian (people from Yin) (Martin Tai).
· Columbus describes horses (Barbara McEwan) and meeting Muslims (Dr Shong).
· Columbus saw great ship (Warsing).
· Early European settlers met Chinese miners – later murdered by Indians – Minnay Sotor river (Scott McLean).
· James Mooney (1861-1921) was one of America's first anthropologists, and collected many oral history accounts of Native Americans, particularly the Cherokee. One example collected by Mooney tells of a visit to the Cherokee of very tall people from the west: "James Wafford, of the western Cherokee, who was born in Georgia in 1806, says that his grandmother, who must have been born about the middle of the last century, told him that she had heard from the old people that long before her time a party of giants had once come to visit the Cherokee. They were nearly twice as tall as common men, and had their eyes set slanting in their heads, so that the Cherokee called them Tsunil' Kalu', "the slant-eyed people," because they looked like the giant hunter Tsul' Kalu. They said that these giants lived far away in the direction in which the sun goes down. The Cherokee received them as friends, and they stayed some time, and then returned to their home in the west . . ." Al Cornette
· Strange people found by first settlers (W Kleish, Solving the Mystery of the Lost Colony, Lee Miller)
· Nottaway River – first settlers found “white people” (R Perkins).
· Constantine Rafinesque’s book Ancient History or Annals of Kentucky (1824) adduces convincing evidence that the Sioux came from China
· Captain John Smith’s diary (kept while a prisoner of Powhatan,) and Oceanye Ho! (later corrupted to Shawnee) defeated by colonial army in 1794 protested that they were not ''American Indians''.
· Coronado report of junks with gilded sterns found near estuary of Mississippi.
· The Records of the Virginia Company of London, compiled by Susan Myra Kingsbury, in four volumes, Washington, 1906-1935. Volume III, pages 547, 548 contain information extracted from letters sent to the Company by the Governor and Treasurer at the Virginia Colony in March, 1621. The following portion is provided verbatim (with substitution of j for I and v for u where appropriate): “… Furthermore they write that in a voyage made by Lieutenant Marmaduke Parkinson, and other English Gentlemen, up the River of Patomack they saw a China Boxe at one of the Kings houses where they were: Being demanded where he had it, made answer, That it was sent him from a King that dwelt in the West, over the great Hills, some tenne dayes journey, whose Countrey is near a great Sea, hee having the Boxe, from a people as he said, that came thither in ships, that weare cloaths, crooked swords, & somewhat like our men, dwelt in houses and were called Acamack-China: and he offered our people, that he would send his Brother along with them to that King, which offer the Governor purposed not to refuse; and the rather, by reason of the continued constant relations of all those Savages in VIRGINIA, of a Sea, and the way to it West, they affirming that the heads of all those seven goodly Rivers, (the least whereof is greater then the River of Thames, and navigable above an hundred and fifty miles, and not above sixe or eight miles one from another) which fall all into one great Bay, have the rising out of a ridge of hills, that runnes all along South and North; Whereby they doubt not but to find a safe, easie, and good passage to the South Sea, part by water, and part by land, esteeming it not above an hundred and fifty miles from the head of the Falls, where we are now planted; the Discovery whereof will bring forth a most rich trade to Cathay, China, Japan, and those other of the East Indies, to the inestimable benefit of this Kingdom..”. This seems to be tantalizing evidence of North American Indian contact with Chinese explorers - Aleck Loker
Descriptions of men who fought in colonial days described as having "yellow complexions" – Melungeon research – Helen Campbell

4. Local peoples’ descriptions of Chinese or Asiatic peoples and their ancestors, who settled amongst them before Europeans arrived

· Natchez legends “ancestors came by sea from the east” (Du Pratzi 123)
· Chinese landing party ambushed and murdered (Frank Fitch)
· Legends among the Mandan Indians near Bismarck of the great ship that sailed up the river (Rev HR Stockert)
· Dr James P. Scherz interviewed a Menominee Indian (Wisconsin) named Pamita (can be found in “Ancient American, Archaeology of the Americas Before Columbus”). On asking 'Did you get the little horses from the Vikings?’ he responded ‘No, from the Chinese…People from across the seas came to visit and we went there to visit’ (Joanna Bergeron)

5. Linguistics and languages common to China and New World

· The Ming-Ho language, linguistics, customs and Machado Joseph disease (Jerry Warsing).
· Linguistics – Ming Ho, Lyco Ming, Wyo Ming (J Warsing)
· To local people ‘Mingo’ = foreign nation (Lee Miller)

6. Shipwrecks, Chinese anchors and fishing gear found in the wake of the treasure fleet

· Pedro Menendez de Aviles (first European) found wrecks of Chinese junks off Florida coast.
· Chinese junk found by early settlers buried in Great Dismal Swamp (L A R Clark); This story, we have found out, appeared in Coronet Magazine, p. 34, January, 1945: “…When the government took over the Swamp and dredged some of the ditches, strange looking hulks of ships were found sunk in her marshes. One, a large Chinese craft, had to be cut through. Sunk in her quagmires are the skeletons of other ships that now belong to the ages – all bearing silent testimony that Old Dismal’s rule stretches far down the corridors of time…” - Paul McNamee
· Wrecked Chinese junks found by first Europeans downwind from Virginia, viz. Pedro Menendez de Aviles – off Florida and upwind.

7. Chinese porcelain and ceramics found in the wake of the treasure fleet
· Porcelain shards (blue and white) and sword found by first settlers (R Perkins).

8. Pre-Columbian Chinese jade found in the wake of the treasure fleet
· Chinese jade in Indian burial mounds (Barbosa Rodrigues).
· Chinese jade found in tombs near the Mississippi (Georgia – Nacooche Mound; Michigan Mound (p 269B)

9. Artefacts, gems, votive offerings, coins and funerary urns

Article in Harpers New Monthly Magazine (Feb 1875) that describes some ancient mounds along the Mississippi River near Memphis, Arkansas. It suggests that there was Asian trade with North America as early as 1125 BC. It also describes an Oriental looking Idol and Malay Water Coolers that were found at the bottom of burial mounds that predate European settlement of America. (Bernard Peasley).

10. Stone buildings, artefacts, canals and aqueducts

· Buried stone observation platforms at Rock Lake
· Stone fortresses at 440 10’N, 930 00’ W.
· The cannonball river in North Dakota is home to many round sandstone rocks or “cannonballs” hence the name. Some of these are however considerably larger and made out of different and harder material. There are also legends among the Mandan Indians nr Bismark of a great ship that sailed up the river. This evidence therefore corresponds with the balls found at Moeraki, NZ, North and South Islands and Vancouver Island which each also have supporting local legends (Rev HR Stockert)
· Huge stone wheels found in Portland Harbour, Maine, whilst it was being dredged in the 1950’s (Al St. Amand)
· Urn made in the rope and coil method intricately carved with dragons on the outside (c11in high and 8in in width) was found in Portland Harbour, Maine, whilst it was being dredged in the 1950’s. The celestial Chinese dragon is comparable as the symbol of the Chinese race itself. Dragons are seen as the divine mythical creature that brings wealth and good luck. See gallery for photographs. (Al St. Amand)
· Runestone State Park outside Heavener, Oklahoma has large, flat, upright stone about 10 feet tall by 5 feet wide that has two or three lines of engraved runes that are quite visible and un-obscured by graffiti, lichen or other engravings. The carvings have been said to be Viking runes. The stone is on a currently un-navigable creek that drains into Poteau Creek which is in the Arkansas River watershed. (Richard Kern)
· In Alton Illinois, USA at the convergence of the Mississippi and Illinois Rivers there was a 50 ft painted carving of two Lung, painted in the Chinese Imperial colors (colors that the Native Americans did not have at this time) called the Piasa. A team has translated Piasa to mean "water dwarf," based on the indigenous language of the time (the indigenous people were 6 ft+, at this time). Locals and "experts" claim the words origin means "bird" or "water-leopard." These explanations have no basis, but persist.
(Jim Kennedy)
· Reader once shown a large stone found in Princeton, BC. It was approximately the size of a basketball but oblong. On the surface were calligraphy characters. No institutions able to determine what the characters were and thought it was a hoax. The reader describes them as looking Chinese. (Jim Hagen)
· Star Foster has directed our attention to the wall at Fort Mtn State Park in Georgia, USA. It's been dated to 1100 AD and previously been credited to the Cherokee, Welsh and aliens. It runs along a ridge for over a mile, some portions in ruins but some still at least 8 ft tall, with sections that might have been guard stations. They are semi-circular and appear along the wall at regular intervals.

11. Mining operations found by first Europeans when they reached the New World

· Columbus’s secret report describes Chinese Miners in ‘bird boats.’
· Mining operations: ‘Fireholes’ near Nottaway River (R Perkins).


12. Advanced technologies found by first Europeans on arrival in New World
Further research needed

13. Plants indigenous to one continent, found on another

· Cotton plants exported from N America to Africa before Columbus (thence to Cape Verde islands).
· The Cherokee rose – a Chinese flower found by first Europeans (Dr K Tan).
· Maize exported from N America before Columbus found by da Gama in S Africa; and by Magellan in Philippines.
· Mulberry trees, Honewort root and Paulonia Tomentosae (Paulownia or Pallowaddie) trees from China (J Warsing) and “Yellow Delicious” apples (Warsing)
· Rice found by early settlers.
· Amaranth exported to China before Europeans reached N America.

14. Animals indigenous to one continent, found on another

· Columbus describes horses (Barbara McEwan) and meeting Muslims (Dr Shong)
· Assateague wild horses.
· Turkeys reached Europe before Columbus set sail (Professor Wu).
· Japanese Sikka deer: thousands of wild deer in Maryland, USA (Craig Hudson)
· Horse remains found near Lake Superior.
· Elephant remains at 320 50’N, 800 10’ W.
· Turkeys exported from North America to Europe (via Silk Road) before Columbus set sail.
· Chinese hens found by first Europeans in N America.
· Allegators - Article states that the species of alligator found in the South Eastern United States is also found in but one other place on the planet; an isolated area along the Yangtze River in China. In every aspect other than size, they are identical though found 12,000 miles apart. Perhaps this is not an anomaly of nature? (Robert Richards)

15. Distinctive artwork carried from continent to continent

· Native carvings of foreign ships and horses found near tributaries of the Mississippi.
· Carvings of monkeys and elephants.

16. Customs and games exported from China to New World
Further research needed

17. Metal artefacts - amour, metal weapons and metal implements found in the New World
· Armour and sword (R. Perkins)
· A plain brass disk has been unearthed in a very scantly populated area of the eastern United States, several hundred miles from the coast at the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. On one side, it bears the inscription of six Chinese words “Da Ming Xuan De Wei Ci” meaning "commissioned to be granted by Xuan De the emperor of Great Ming." Dr. Siu-Leung Lee, a biochemist and resident of Columbus, Ohio, believes the medallion, and the intriguing circumstances surrounding the local area and people where it was found, could provide proof of Zheng He’s fleets’ contact with North Carolina. To read his press release please click here

18. Trans-oceanic spread of diseases from one continent to another
· Machado Joseph disease is prevalent amongst Melungeons (Jerry Warsing)

19. DNA and physical comparison

· Moskoke tribe have Chinese DNA – inherited after Bering land bridge flooded Novick and colleagues).
· Sioux tribe have Chinese DNA (post Bering Straits landbridge).
· Many readers have commented on the ‘Chinese’ appearance of the Melungeons.
· ‘Chinese’ DNA found amongst Sioux and Cree-Ojibwa peoples of upper Mississippi.

20. Meteorological events and weather
Further research needed

21. Stars and navigation
Further research needed


http://www.gavinmenzies.net/pages/evidence-1421/content.asp?EvidenceID=342

[guinnessford]

If god spawned Adam and Eve, where was the garden?

And what kind of boat did their offspring have to get them across the oceans to inhabit these other lands that all the natives lived in?

Like the Mayans, how did the offspring of Adam /eve make their way across?

Or howd the indians get to Amerika?

Puts a big hole in that whole jezuz and god thing for me.

[skunk]

egg, Gavin Menzies is a fraud.

Start here:

331181

[Ra187]

lets not forget about the knights templar they were here in 1362