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boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 10:46 AM
This morning from The Independent's gift to the world.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisks-world-the-jury-is-out-on-the-iranian-model-of-religion-and-politics-1721566.html

The central issue emerging from the new Iranian awakening is essentially the conflict between medieval angel-counters and secular enlightenment. Can there truly be an Islamic 'Republic?' Are Islam and Democracy mutually exclusive? Below are some comments by my favorite student of Middle Eastern affairs, Robert Fisk, on that conundrum. I've raised this critical issue in these threads ad nauseum only to have them ignored in the discussions here in favor of a shallow analysis based in knee-jerk conspiracy categories. Reducing the events of surrounding the Iranian election to 'grassy knoll' CIA nonsense is not only unhelpful but it is also cynically ignorant. Such nonsense is dismissive of the hopes and bravery of the Persian young who have risked everything in a seemingly quixotic battle for freedom from the religious kleptocracy that has become the legacy of the 1979 revolution.



Robert Fisk's World: The jury is out on the Iranian model of religion and politics

So what of the famous revolution? Was it a return to the basic values of Shia Islam?

Saturday, 27 June 2009


The most nauseous photograph to come out of the Iran tragedy was not the bloodied demonstrators in Tehran, but a Reuters picture of former Iranian Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi, "fighting back tears" in Washington as he declared that Neda Agha Sultan, the young woman shot dead by Ahmadinejad's thugs a week ago, "was now for ever in my pocket". I bet she is, by God! "I have added her to the list of my daughters," the son of the brutal and merciless late Shah, told the world.
Related articles

* Iran uprising fizzles out as Mousavi backtracks
* Karim Sadjadpour: The crowds have gone but Tehran has changed forever

Needless to say, the son of the Light of the Aryans did not add the many thousands of equally young and innocent women tortured to death by his father's sadistic secret police to his "list of daughters". Back in 1979, I met a man who had tortured and killed a woman by scorching her on a metal rack over gas burners. His name was Mohamed Sadafi, by profession a weightlifter. "You killed my daughter," the poor girl's father shrieked at Sadafi in front of me. "She was burned all over her flesh until she was paralysed. She was roasted." Sadafi told the man – without explaining why – that the girl had hanged herself after seven months in custody. But "there was not even a single sheet in Evin prison from which she could hang herself", the father replied in fury. Yes there was, Sadafi replied. He had himself seen the Evin laundry bills.

No, I don't think that Reza Shah has put this young woman "in his pocket". But nor would the Shia clergy, which reputedly backed the original Anglo-American coup against Mohammed Mossadeq, the democratically elected leader of Iran in 1953. At that time, a senior Tehran cleric was sent to Qom to persuade the leading Ayatollah of his time, Sayed Mohammad Hossein Boroujerdi, to issue a fatwa, calling for a holy war against the Tudeh party communists to whom Mossadeq was allied and give his support to religion and the throne. A certain Ruhollah Khomeini was rumoured to have urged Boroujerdi to adopt just such a step.

The CIA's own analysis of the overthrow – which, of course, has been recalled with ever increasing enthusiasm by Ahmadinejad and his chums over the past two weeks – includes a telling post-coup interview between Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA boss in Tehran, and Winston Churchill, who was living out his last months as British prime minister (reprinted now, by the way, by Ken Coates's ever intriguing The Spokesman books in Nottingham). "This was a most touching occasion," the CIA report said of the Roosevelt-Churchill meeting.

"The Prime Minister seemed to be in bad shape physically... He had great difficulty in hearing; occasional difficulty in articulating; and apparent difficulty in seeing to his left. In spite of this he could not have been more enthusiastic about the operation. He was good enough to express a wish that he had been "some years" younger and might have served under his (Roosevelt's) command. Our operation had given us a wonderful and unexpected opportunity which might change the whole picture in the Middle East." This was Condoleezza Rice-speak. Remember her "birth-pangs" of a new Middle East, when the Lebanese were being splattered with blood by Israeli bombs in 2006? But Churchill's "whole picture" did indeed change – in 1979.

So what of that famous revolution? Was it really a blossoming return to the basic values of Shia Islam, a return to the golden age of Ali and Hussein, when Islamic rule could never be set up alongside a secular government? This is the narrative that is now laid down in Tehran. This is the story that Ayatollah Khamenei purports to believe in; that Ayatollah Khomeini – whatever his advice to Boroujerdi in 1953 – took Iran back to the purity of Shia Islam's roots, when there was no attempt to separate religious from secular power.

By extraordinary chance, a new volume has just been published by Professor Nader Hashemi of the University of Denver that is probably the most pertinent book to read today about the latest dramatic events in Iran. With the awful obligations of academia, he has entitled his work Islam, Secularism, and Liberal Democracy: Toward a Democratic Theory for Muslim Societies – a real DO NOT READ title – but it is worth every page. Hashemi, I know well; he has a habit of putting visiting speakers through two lectures, three seminars and six interviews within an hour of crossing the Atlantic. This is absolutely true; I am one of his victims.

But here is a chilling Hashemi quotation from Khomeini, while the Ayatollah was in exile in the Iraqi city of Najaf in 1970. "This slogan of the separation of religion and politics and the demand that Islamic scholars not intervene in social and political affairs has been formulated and propagated by the imperialists; it is only the irreligious who repeat them. Were religion and politics separate in the time of the Prophet? Did there exist on one side a group of clerics, and opposite it, a group of politicians and leaders?"

Again, in 1999, Ayatollah Abolghassem Khazali, a tough former member of the Guardian Council, insisted that "when a jurisprudent like Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi" – by chance today a close supporter of Ahmadinejad with a strong desire to become Supreme Leader after Khamenei – "says something, you should say 'I shall listen and I shall obey'. If there is a danger, it is coming from the slogan of 'civil society's' and now the situation has reached the point when the existence of God is being debated at universities".

No wonder Tehran University was plundered and abused by the regime's Basij militia last week. No wonder Mir-Hossein Mousavi's "secular" imprint is now so dangerous to the regime. But as Hashemi observes – and here is the real shaky foundation of the Iranian regime – "There is a near consensus that Ayatollah Khomeini's doctrine of the 'rule of the Islamic jurist' marked a significant break with Shia tradition in terms of the relationship between religion and politics. Senior ayatollahs within the Shia world (including in Iran at the time) strongly objected to Khomeini's political doctrine because it was considered an innovation and a radical break with the historical quietist role played by the clergy in political society."

So there you have it. Khomeini invented the so-called "velayat-e faqih" (rule of the Supreme Leader); the Islamic Republic was never conceived of in Islamic history. It's a try-out, an experiment that may or may not continue. The past two weeks suggest it needs a lot of work to survive.

Meanwhile, let's remember what Mossadeq said 46 years ago: "No nation goes anywhere under the shadow of dictatorship."

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 10:56 AM
BE, you seriously don't think that the CIA has been involved in creating political dissent in Iran?

They flat out announced the fact that they were going to be back in 2007...

r]GRwUZ-u6KFor]

(Thanks for finding that cog)

Whether you agree with what is going on in the country or not... They did NOT by any means reach the conclusions they have on their own... They were led to those conclusions...

Propaganda is Propaganda... Even if you agree with the outcome and the aims of what a propaganda campaign is meant to achieve, it still means that a group of people were influenced in psychologically subtle ways...

It is NOT the job of the U.S. to decide the political structure of foreign countries... It is most definitly NOT okay when they decide to fuck with the heads of the people to achieve those ends...

As I said before... the ends do NOT justify the means...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 11:13 AM
Did you read the article? The CIA and the Mossad have worked for more than half a century to to corrupt the sovereignty and control the resources of Iran. The youth of Iran are well aware of this- as is the rest of the world. I'm glad you've discovered it too. It's old news. Fisk has dedicated about half his career to exposing these intrigues- which is probably how they came to be known in the first place. The 'demonstrators' are the sons and daughters of the same 'demonstrators' who captured the American embassy in Tehran in 1979. You seem to feel that the CIA has some magical capability of forever controlling world events. They try to do precisely that- and ultimately always fail. Read Fisk and let's elevate the discussion.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 11:24 AM
I read the article... but to say the CIA is ineffectual is ignorant...

Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Columbia, Cambodia, the list of countries goes on and on...

those are just the ones that WORKED... Whenever there's a government thats opposed to the U.S.... we feel the need to go in and "change" shit...

The "spirit of the iranian people?" Well its amazingly the same spirit the United States wished they had... uncanny.

Perhaps without our influence, they would realize that the United States meddling in foreign affairs is the worst thing that will happen to them...

If revolution happens, We'll see a new government put into place that is "U.S. Friendly". If thats what they truly want, than they're fucked from the beginning... Name a country that has benefited from U.S. meddling?

Its not what they want... its what we've "told" them they want...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 11:38 AM
but to say the CIA is ineffectual is ignorant... and who said that? The CIA has always been efficient and effective- in the short term. But ultimately all their efforts will end in blow-back failure. They laughed at the failures of the Soviets in Afghanistan and supported the Mujaheddin and Osama bin Laden to destroy them. What was released was a spiral of events that led us into Mesopotamia. Was that a success or a failure for America in the long run? Did it not result in our very own drowning in that morass? Did it not result in the eventual bankruptcy of the American Empire? Fisk would not disagree with my conclusions on this even if you might.

You seem to feel that the CIA has some magical capability of forever controlling world events. They try to do precisely that- and ultimately always fail. Read Fisk and let's elevate the discussion.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 11:50 AM
Oh definitely, U.S. meddling always creates twice as many problems as it does solutions... the long term consequences are always dire... but, they are very effective...

They helped Iran lead a revolution twice in the past... we're just seeing a third attempt... if at first you don't succeed, try try again ya know...

This isn't a reflection of the "spirit of the iranian people". We're seeing the injection of our desires for Iran manifest itself in the people... A few weeks ago, the Iranians were saying they wanted to keep everything the same, but with a new president... they WANTED the muslim clerics to lead the country...

Now we're hearing about an overthrow of the governmental system...

This is NOT their wishes and desires... this is what the U.S. wishes and desires...

Like I said, they're being TOLD what to believe and how to react on a subconscious level through Propaganda techniques... I'm not trying to belittle the people of Iran, after all, the U.S. is just as vulenerable...

I'm simply saying, that I will not believe this is the will of the people...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 02:39 PM
OK. 'not the will of the people.' Here's another source to consider- admittedly Libertarian. This from Justin Raimondo at Antiwar.com. No CIA dupe is Justin. I suggest you stop banking on the mullah's propaganda and do some thinking.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2009/06/25/iran-its-all-about-us/


I have news for both Ahmadinejad and the neocons: it isn’t about us. It’s about the Iranian people and their heroic struggle against a parasitic State that is leeching their blood. They want their freedom, and the best way — the only way — we can help them is to stand aside and let them go for it. Obama has already said too much: it’s time for the American President to zip it, so the Iranian people can win it.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 02:54 PM
You're missing the point...

look at it from outside the propaganda... (on both sides)

look at the CIA announcement in 2007

If its what they "want"... then why did the CIA decide to start a propaganda campaign?

If its what they want, why does the CIA need to convince them...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:11 PM
You're talking ragtime. The CIA will always do what it thinks is in the interests of the Empire. They are generally wrong in that assessment. Hell- I grew up with 'propaganda-' as did we all. We have a way of filtering the most non-nonsensical manifestations. Don't you think? And don't you think that the Persian kids have that same ability? Or are you the only human capable of accessing 'truth?' Pack- I love ya, but I'm way over your arrogance on this issue.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 03:22 PM
I'm not the only person capable of seeing it BE... others have seen it too, and posted about it here on Amkon...

You can't discredit the Iranian press 110%... I think it's cog who likes to say that every good lie contains an ounce of truth...

Your emotions are clouding your objectivity...

Neda is the only sniper death to happen in Iran.... and it happened to be caught on tape by 2 or 3 different angles?

The shit you're seeing on youtube is propaganda as well... do you think those protesters have a mission to objectively report what they see? or are they going to make their plight look more horrid than it really is in an effort to gain international, and mostly American, sympathy for their actions?

The CIA admitted 2 years ago that they were trying to do precisely this, using the exact same methods that have been used...

Israel seems to be a major propaganda factory regarding this whole Iranian ordeal... They WANT revolution... they WANT the U.S. to intervene...

Why was it leaked that Obama wanted twitter to remain up, instead of go down for scheduled maintenence? Shouldn't that have been a little more "quiet?" as to not appear to be meddling? Or perhaps they wanted the american people's attention drawn to this stuff in Iran?

The wreak of a propaganda campaign is strong... AND its a 4 way campaign...

Iran, Israel, The United States, and the "protesters" are all waging their own campaigns on this one...

How can anyone possibly say that the Iranians are well informed... and thus, this is what they want?

It looks like the arrogance you see could be displaced...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:31 PM
How can anyone possibly say that the Iranians are well informed... and thus, this is what they want? You don't have to be 'well informed' to fight for liberty. It's natural. No? 'We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:36 PM
And what is it that inclines the Persians to the dream? Not the CIA, but rather faith in the truth of this:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 03:43 PM
"Liberty" and "Democracy" are buzzwords... see Glittering Generalities/Virtue Words (http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/ct.wg.gg.html)

How could it possibly be "natural" if people don't even realize what those words REALLY mean?

nice quoting the Declaration of Independence... Why aren't we revolting?

Our government doesn't even live up to those standards... and never has...

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:47 PM
Have you read that lately? Is it just passe'? Do you need to incline and recline with that know-nothing douchebag, Cockburned? Or am I simply another propagandist? We report- you decide.

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Our government doesn't even live up to those standards... and never has...And a few fishes and loaves will not feed the multitudes. And so? The standards are still pure- as are the Beatitudes. Shall we just cave? Some principles may be worth fighting for.

boycotteverything
06-27-2009, 03:53 PM
...not with a bang, but a whimper.. Elevate or die on the vine.

pack3tg0st
06-27-2009, 03:57 PM
You're not a propagandist... you're a victim of the propaganda...

The beautiful thing about propaganda is once it's successful, it goes "viral".

All signs point to propaganda.... ever wonder why the Iranians are protesting by holding signs written in English?

Why have I been able to track some of the "breaking news stories" down to newspapers in Israel?

Research the news... figure out who/what is behind all the stories...

When you hear the "memes", and see the symbols, and the buzz words... those should all be red flags...