France Making A Stand Against BURKAS?

[Ducky]

DESCRIMINATION is the name of the game here.

I don't blame the French really.

[offsite:e4jl4b55]VERSAILLES, France (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090622/world/france_politics_islam_women_rights) (AFP) - President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Monday that the burka was not welcome in secular France, condemning the head-to-toe cover as a symbol of subjugation rather than the Muslim faith.

"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," he said. "That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity."

"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience," he told lawmakers in a major policy speech. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic."

The speech came just two weeks after Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama diverged on whether states should legislate on religious clothing, an issue which has sparked controversy in Europe.

France, home to an estimated five million Muslims, passed a law in 2004 banning headscarves or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in state schools in a hotly contested bid to defend secularism.

Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services said she wore a burka and was living in "submission" to her husband.

Sarkozy told a special session of parliament he was in favour of holding an inquiry sought by some French lawmakers into whether Muslim women who cover themselves fully in public undermine French secularism and women's rights.

But the president added "we must not fight the wrong battle, in the republic the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions."

The inquiry proposal has won support from politicians on the left and right, but France's official Muslim council accused lawmakers of wasting time on a fringe phenomenon.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), said last week.

There are no official figures but several thousand women are thought to wear the burka in France.

Obama this month defended the choice of some Muslim women to wear the Islamic headscarf.

It is "important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practising religion as they see fit for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear," he said.

But Sarkozy told him when the two leaders met in France that his country took a different view.

"Civil servants must not wear any outward sign of their religion, whether they are Catholics, Jewish, Orthodox, Protestants or Muslims," he said, adding that a woman could wear a headscarf provided it was her own decision.

Communist MP Andre Gerin is spearheading the drive for a parliamentary panel that would look at ways to restrict the burka, which he describes as a "prison" and "degrading" for women.

Immigration Minister Eric Besson has warned against reigniting a row on the issue of Islamic dress, saying "France has managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question."[/offsite:e4jl4b55]

What bugs me is that these women can wear the full burka, and carry a pictured driver's licence. It's the pictured part that gets to me.

Why bother? There's no identifying marks, there's no eye/hair color, just a piece of cloth. SURE...it SAYS that the person 'under' the burka exhibits the characteristics stated, but there isn't a viable 'face' pic for people to ACTUALLY see. As far as I'm concerned, it could be ANYONE under that piece of cloth.

This burlap sack has got to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It symbolizes a 'teathered leash' to the insecurities of men. What it's basically saying, is that men can't keep their peckers in their pants, can't stop lusting, and pretty much can't control their animal urges. So they slap on a piece of cloth over some poor woman's face to keep other men from lusting, urging, and so forth.

An out of sight...out of mind attitude.

Perhaps it would be different, if they treated their women like guys treat classic cars over here. At least the boys here, take their cars out for a spin, show them off, and treat them like gold.

[pack3tg0st]

And the jews shoudl stop wearing their little hats...

And the christians can stop wearing their cross jewelry...

Let them wear what they want... would you like the state telling you how to dress?

now for matters of state... (drivers licenses, etc), take the damn veil off... get your picture taken... if ya don't want to... than don't drive.

I will never support any government that tries to tell people what to wear...

Freedom is freedom... Someone wearing a burhka doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone whatsoever...

The jews have the right to wear their little hats... and I have the right NOT to... that doesn't give me the right to tell them they don't deserve the right to wear one...

[Lexion]

Hell, even in Basic Training we
got a choice of boxers or
briefs.

Ladies wearing burkhas are like
a Christmas present.

:D

Waiting on Santa,
Lex

[hp]

I'm with you on this pack.

With the exception of that gangster or whatever pants falling off look.

[Lexion]

I'm with you on this pack.

With the exception of that gangster or whatever pants falling off look.

I say they keep that look.

Helps apprehend them.

:D

Regards,
Lex

[hp]

Good point Lex. I missed the obvious advantage in it.

Lex, did you ever take a lawn mower with your unit on a military mission?

[Lexion]

Not sure if a machete counts.

Serpo is so fucking bizarre,
it's scary.

Fun read. Might make a decent
B movie.

Real ? Not so much.

Floating,
Lex

[Ima Nasshole]

Paris has always been the fashion capitol of the world, but my guess the real reason they want the Burkas gone is so that the French men can objectify the women.

Pack, if Christians walked around "nailed" to the cross then I'd say you have a point, but a full length, 400 thread count egyptian cotton sheet from head to toe in the fashion capital of the world has to go. My guess is Sarcozy and the rest of the french citizens Mostly men and some women) would like to beat off to one or two of them and the big sheet makes that tough.

[lala]

Freedom of dress only in your own time. . . about time they lived by everyones rules . . . you go to a school with a uniform, join a work force with a uniform, work in the public domain, there is always a stardard of dress that you have to follow . . .come on get with the program . . . we don't care what your belief are, that your own personal belief that you can have on your own time . . . I'm with the french on this one . . . .[even though they sink our rainbow warrior, bastards] . . . You cannot were a helmet, balaclada, scalf round your face in a bank or place of bussness . . . same for all . . . and they treat there women like shit its just another 1800 belief thats never been updated because men rule in there world, and believe that there women are there servant, if they wish to have these belief they can keep it, but don't dictate that the world has to except it . . . If they feel so strongly about it stay were it acceptable . . . . but when you decide to move country and mix with people from different race, different beleifs and different ways, you have to respect others ways . . . .

Over here they have just put in place in couple of town the banning of gang patches and paraphernalia . . . If anyone enters there towns with anything that is gang related on there person it will be removed and confiscated . . . . waiting to see how that one goes . . .

[boycotteverything]

I will never support any government that tries to tell people what to wear...

Freedom is freedom... Someone wearing a burhka doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone whatsoever... Freedom is freedom. Well said.

[lala]

I will never support any government that tries to tell people what to wear...

Freedom is freedom... Someone wearing a burhka doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone whatsoever... Freedom is freedom. Well said.


Fuck and I though I lived in Lala land . . . Your are jugded on how you look, is that freedom . . . You live by law is that freedom . . . obey the rules or get locked up is that freedom . . . the only freedom you have is in your mind . . . :shock: If I went to there country and walked round in my mini skirt and little top I'd be stoned to death, double standards fuck them and there fuck up beleifs . . .

[Ducky]

Speaking of Infringement of rights....

I have the right to personal safety. Like anyone else.

How do I know that there isn't a man packing a piece under that burka?

'Description' is key in a court of law here. If a person is unidentifiable, there's goes the case out the window.

There was a story out last year(?) whereby a burka-clad woman was teaching her class, and the children couldn't hear a blessed word she was saying, because her voice sounded muffled under the burka. The school board told her to remove her burka from her face or get sacked.

I don't care if the woman has the best teaching credentials around. That's not the point. Fuck...even the catholic nuns covered their bodies up, but at least we could see their face and hear their voices distinctly.

Kids look to their teachers for re-affirmation. Teachers are mirrors to their emotions. If someone was wearing a burka, we can't tell if they're happy, sad, angry, etc.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Simply because one's mode of dress is derived from one's system of sacred rites should one be granted a free pass to conceal one's identity?

Shouldn't one reasonably expect to abide by the prevailing standards of the society in which one has chosen to belong?

Slippery issue this; although I must admit I lean towards the side of the cheese-eating surrender monkeys...

[Alessandra]

I dunno.. those little head scarves are kinda cute.. not the burqas. just those neat frilly colored ones that go over your head but shows your face.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

... shows your face.

...and, imho, that's the crux of the situation.

[boycotteverything]

I don't care if the woman has the best teaching credentials around. That's not the point. Fuck...even the catholic nuns covered their bodies up, but at least we could see their face and hear their voices distinctly.Yeah but most of them penguins was packin heat under them habits, don'tcha know. i say we're safer if we ban clothes altogether. SAFETY!! YEAH!!!

[Kacen]

Fuck and I though I lived in Lala land . . . Your are jugded on how you look, is that freedom . . . You live by law is that freedom . . . obey the rules or get locked up is that freedom . . . the only freedom you have is in your mind . . . :shock: If I went to there country and walked round in my mini skirt and little top I'd be stoned to death, double standards fuck them and there fuck up beleifs . . .
Precisely.

Their scum culture should not be tolerated in our societies. If they want to live like that, they should go back to their countries.

[boycotteverything]

Their scum culture should not be tolerated in our societies. If they want to live like that, they should go back to their countries.so i take it you don't like burkas... hahahaha

[Alessandra]

Their scum culture should not be tolerated in our societies. If they want to live like that, they should go back to their countries.

wow, Kacen. Intolerant much? Grow the hell up.

[Kacen]

If they want to have their Islamic law they should stay in their Islamic countries. If they go to Europe or any other western nation they must assimilate themselves into that culture and put their devotion to that nation before their religion. If they cannot do that they should never have left.

[skunk]

Ditto for the god damn fascists. They must assimilate. Or die.

[itma]

SALUTE to Denmark . This could very well happen here on our Continent....

Susan MacAllen is a contributing editor for (FamilySecurityMatters.org) Salute the Danish Flag - it's a Symbol of Western Freedom By Susan MacAllen

In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark . But in 1978 - even in Copenhagen, one didn't see Muslim immigrants.

The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time.

The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism.

Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies – it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets -all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite?

By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - and its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious.
Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark 's liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history.


An article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they forecasted, accurately, that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported:

'Muslim immigrants constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending.'
'Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes.'

'Over time, as Muslim immigrants increase in numbers, they wish less to mix with the indigenous population. A recent survey finds that only 5 percent of young Muslim immigrants would readily marry a Dane.'


'Forced marriages - promising a newborn daughter in Denmark to a male cousin in the home country, then compelling her to marry him, sometimes on pain of death - are one problem'

'Muslim leaders openly declare their goal of introducing Islamic law once Denmark's Muslim population grows large enough - a
not-that-remote prospect. If present trends persist, one sociologist estimates, every third inhabitant of Denmark in 40 years will be Muslim.'

It is easy to understand why a growing number of Danes would feel that Muslim immigrants show little respect for Danish values and laws.
An example is the phenomenon common to other European countries and Canada: some Muslims in Denmark who opted to leave the Muslim faith have been murdered in the name of Islam, while others hide in fear for their lives. Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark, a country where once Christian citizens worked to smuggle out nearly all of their 7,000 Jews by night to Sweden - before the Nazis could invade. I think of my Danish friend Elsa - who. as a teenager. had dreaded crossing the street to the bakery every morning under the eyes of occupying Nazi soldiers - and I wonder what she would say today.

In 2001, Denmark elected the most conservative government in some 70 years - one that had some decidedly non-generous ideas about liberal unfettered immigration. Today Denmark has the strictest immigration policies in Europe . ( Its effort to protect itself has been met with accusations of 'racism' by liberal media across Europe - even as other governments struggle to right the social problems wrought by years of too-lax immigration.)

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark 's history, culture, and a Danish language test.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
check out the rest of the Windows Live™. More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox. More than messages

[Kacen]

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark 's history, culture, and a Danish language test.
Laws like this should be implemented in every western nation.

[Foxtrot Oscar]

If you wish to become Danish, you must attend three years of language classes. You must pass a test on Denmark 's history, culture, and a Danish language test.
Laws like this should be implemented in every western nation.

Whilst I agree with K on this one. It would also mean that Americans could never live anywhere else, well maybe Mexico.

Muslims in general make no effort to intergrate, they form their own seclusion and in many countries practise their own laws which are not that of the country they live in.

There is only one way this will end... Join us or you will die.

A borg by any other name, is still a freaking borg!

Fox

[Kacen]

Whilst I agree with K on this one. It would also mean that Americans could never live anywhere else, well maybe Mexico.
An ideal Fascist state will seek to educate it's citizens and correct any other wrongs with the current American populace.


Muslims in general make no effort to integrate, they form their own seclusion and in many countries practise their own laws which are not that of the country they live in.
Precisely. While other groups and minorities in general tend to do this to some extent, Islam is the most severe case.

The most religious Jews, for instance, may seclude themselves from everyone else, in that case they must be given the choice to put the state before religion (they'll still be permitted to practice their faith as long as it doesn't get in the way of the state, AKA keep it personal and don't bring it into politics. This goes for any religion, including Islam), or be kicked to Israel. You cannot have two loyalties.

However, the Jewish religion, and many others, are non-proselytizing. Islam on the other hand does proselytize, in fact Islam is so structured it's practically a political ideology moreso than any other religion, and they seek to turn the nations they immigrate to into their ideal Islamic state. This makes Islam a larger statistical danger rather than the previously stated small issue with Jews or other religious groups.

While not all Muslims, of course, are like this, a good proportion are, and they must be given the choice to put the state before religion or go back to their countries. Many liberal western democracies allow Muslims in and cater to them, which is not good at all.

Christians are the second biggest danger, but this is offset by the fact that they are more ingrained into western society, and less violent in general, also the Christian religion being more culturally neutral than Islam, so the threat from them is lower.

Of course, the Christian fundamentalists need to be purged from this nation, as they are one of the main causes of America's current ills.

[Ducky]

Fascists.

There's something seriously wrong with that term in my books.

Not picking on you Kacen. Don't get me wrong. Remember this. Entitled to MY opinion too, but there is something seriously fucking wrong with Fascism.

Let me put it this way.

Where in our timeline was Fascism good for ALL involved?

See, I even think that the Muslims are Fascists to some degrees. "It's THEIR way or the highway". Patriarchal society through and through.

The problems they have, are and have been, prevelant since time immoral.

The men of THAT society won't budge one iota where women are concerned. And why should they? They wave around the Koran in everyone's faces; expecting others to chime in/join because of their own personal Koran interpretations, and if someone develops a backbone and tells them they're FUCKIN WRONG in their measures, they pull the jihad card. WTF There's so many sect branch offs it's not fit.

Imho, they haven't caught up with the rest of the world. They're living in mideval times. Me thinks they don't WANT to progress. They need to catch up. But it's far easier for them to quash something they can't get a handle on - i.e. covering up women to prevent 'eye candy' for the men - than it is to nip it in the butt, and thoroughly educate everyone where sexual studies are concerned.

It's a bandaid on a rusty car.

Eventually the car is going to rust away to dust, and they either figure out on getting another old clunker to do the same with, or get their heads on straight and start realizing that bandaids are not going to suffice forever.

Something's gotta give.

If per chance they DO see the error of their ways (probably won't because they're a PROUD people) then one of their 'ciizens' will be able to walk the streets without reprisal or subjugated into a lesser way of living.

SHE will not be deemed 2nd class any longer.

It will be the final step in women's revolution, and SHE will be able to take her rightful place amongst men.

[Kacen]

One is only "Fascist" to any degree if they are Corporatist, Nationalist, and Authoritarian at minimal.

Dedicated Muslims, nay, people dedicated to many religions cannot be nationalists as they hold their religion as a higher authority than the state, so they ether attempt to make their religion the state (theocracy) or stay out of politics and exclude themselves from society. An extreme example of the latter example would be Jehovah's Witnesses; they explicitly consider patriotism or nationalism as a form of idolatry, therefore they are 100% in all cases incompatible with Fascism.

Truth be told, anyone who says something is "Fascist-esque" simply because it involves following strict rules is ignorant.

[Ducky]

One is only "Fascist" to any degree if they are Corporatist, Nationalist, and Authoritarian at minimal.

Dedicated Muslims, nay, people dedicated to many religions cannot be nationalists as they hold their religion as a higher authority than the state, so they ether attempt to make their religion the state (theocracy) or stay out of politics and exclude themselves from society. An extreme example of the latter example would be Jehovah's Witnesses; they explicitly consider patriotism or nationalism as a form of idolatry, therefore they are 100% in all cases incompatible with Fascism.

That's a FALSITY. Religion Extremists can be dubbed as such. And so can idealistic personnel throughout history.

I asked the question:

"Where in recorded history does Fascism not only do a good job (paraphrasing here), and where is this example?

The above question/statement - begs an example. Please don't cite Mussolini or Fidel Castro, as this is concidered 'dying regiemes' at present.


Truth be told, anyone who says something is "Fascist-esque" simply because it involves following strict rules is ignorant.

[itma]

I wonder how many of you have actually seen muslim sheilas at the beach,or the swimming pool,really really deep down dont y,all feel sorry for the poor bitches,they know that if they shed their burqas and head scarfs all the infidel unbelievers will leap on them and shag their arses off and the mullahs will not be happy chappies,in fact they will all probably have a fatwa.

[Kacen]

That's a FALSITY. Religion Extremists can be dubbed as such. And so can idealistic personnel throughout history.
No they can't. Some Fascist regimes mix religion with the state, some stronger than others. Most did have religious propaganda, Mussolini's Italy catered to Catholicism, as did the Falangists and Ustaše. The Greek 4th of August Regime catered to Orthodox Christianity, as did the Romanian Iron Guard, but none of those regimes STRICTLY enforced religious law, as in to compare to, say, Saudi Arabia. The closest may be the Iron Guard to a real theocratic Fascist regime.


I asked the question:

"Where in recorded history does Fascism not only do a good job (paraphrasing here), and where is this example?

The above question/statement - begs an example. Please don't cite Mussolini or Fidel Castro, as this is concidered 'dying regiemes' at present
Fidel Castro's regime is communist.

Look up the employment rate in Fascist Italy, Mussolini fixed many things for his people.

[WarlordZeroOne]

pack3tg0st on Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:48 pm

And the jews shoudl stop wearing their little hats.

You know pack with the Jews hat you can see the face,like the French Prez said its not about religion, you need to see peoples faces, its not about sexism, the islamic women are just a slaves to their men,look at arranged marriages they stink like shit,also when i have been on holiday in Turkey the wives have to walk behind their hubbys,we don't live in that world,and when in Rome Do as the Romans, do.here in the U.K. the Pakistani's do not integrate, its a divide that also stinks and causes a racial stigma,we in Europe should take the same stand as the French Prez, and stand together on this one.

[skunk]

Ha, kacen saying someone's ignorant...That make me laugh out loud.

France is just pulling their usual frog assholery. They don't give a fuck about women. This is nothing more than a move to radicalize and marginalize the muslim population even more for his own political gain.

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Sure Skunk it's a little political posturing.

It's also stating rather nicely "I wont blindly follow the Yanks"

Cozy-boy is a little hittler in training. Just as well the French no longer have the taste for war.

Fox

[boycotteverything]

Mussolini fixed many things for his people....until his people fixed him

http://cecaust.com.au/images/mussolini-hanging.jpg
How's it hanging, Benito?

[WarlordZeroOne]

We all know why they fixed Mussolini and his Mrs. the Nazi Pig.

[Kacen]

t]TlkxlzTZc48t]

[boycotteverything]

Kacen- fuck that guy. He's a total dickwad and I can't even bear to look at his gnarly face. hahahaha