Street gangs and freemasons?

[Cogburn]

rNBjDFH7QLc7

* Group initiation
* Start at the bottom of the organization with the "carrot" of reaching the top
* Similar numerology
* Similar hand signs and hand shakes
* Related symbology

Now you know my thoughts on the term "Illuminati"... However...

We know that the CIA flooded inner cities with crack and the know-how to make it. I'll take it a step further and say that they also flooded the rural poor with meth-amphetamines.

It's 2009. From all different angles and perspectives the story continues to be told through related symbology, ideology and religion.

If you believe that the Vatican is indeed the source of Western conspiracy then the line of passage becomes clear.

Hapsburg -> Vatican -> Roman Catholicism -> Roman Empire -> Pharaohs of Egypt

Before anyone says "WTF Egypt?!!?" let's not forget that the lines merged when the offspring of Cleopatra and Antony took the throne of Rome. This person would be none other than Octavian, Caesar Agustus, Emperor of Rome during the time when Jesus was alleged to have walked the Earth. Further down the exact same bloodline Constantine converted the entire empire to that religion... and you know the rest. Understand that I also appreciate the intellectual lineage of the organizations to which I claim membership.

My curiosity seems to be at the split between the organizations run by the Egyptian Cabal. There would seem to be a right and a left hand path left by the Pharaohs if one analyzes closely the nature of the organizations typically involved in Western conspiracy theory. To digress, I also can't help but wonder if this is the inspiration for the duality of Asimov's "Foundation": one in the public eye dedicated to science and technology and another, in secret, dedicated to more inscrutable arts.

The next question asks itself: If there is indeed a split within the EC itself, does that mean they are at times in opposition to one another?

If such a thing were true it would certainly explain the spiral of seemingly self-hating persecution that has gone on throughout history. The Knights of Malta and the Knights Templar come to mind almost immediately. Given the historical roots of Templars and freemasons, its interesting that to this day freemasons still pay homage to the "Holy Saints John of Jerusalem", one of which being the patron saint of the Knights of Malta, St. John de Hospitallier.

Humans being humans the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry, as a wise man once said. All brothers fight at one time or another. Muslims and Jews being another great example. We all know that it wasn't the Jews that founded the "state" of Israel, it was the English. Jews just moved there. Check out a map of the area prior to the 1900s. Guess what it was called?

http://www.worldmapsonline.com/images/Palestine-1700s-(Canaan).gif

Not Palestine. Canaan. The English split it and called it Israel and Palestine. How nice of them. Let's not forget India and Pakistan while we're at it. More English imperial fun! North and South Korea? Viet Nam? Cambodia? Laos? Burma... oops, that's the English name... Myanmar? THE WHOLE FUCKING AFRICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN CONTINENTS?!?

So it takes 9/11 for Americans to figure out that the whole fucking world that doesn't share our love of fast food thinks we're basically an anathema to the natural order of the universe. Conspiracy theory goes mainstream because there are still some people that simply can't believe that people that don't speak English can by talented, dedicated, and just plain lucky. God should only favor the stars and bars I suppose.

If you look at how conspiracy theory has come around since 2001 (that does not include being an "The X Files" fan), it's mostly group think about the unprovable from the unwitting regarding the unknowable. Nibiru/Planet X. DUMBS. The Illuminati / NWO. Aliens. 2012. Shit... at least 2012 will eventually get here and we can be rid of that one. Y2K, just another day!

I think I'll continuing to broadcast live from inside the rabbit hole. I'll let you know when I hit bottom if you don't want to jump in after me.

[Cheezit]

You seem to have a lot on your mind.

Gangs - Masons
Yeah, it does look like they have had strong influence on the gangs.
But really when one looks into the whole NWO, secret symbols, secret signs, companys, govt, products, and so on one can find all sorts for connections.
But how much of it is just copied.
Copied but with no control from the freemasons, illuminati, whoever?

I also wonder about the culture before the Egyptians.
Who were they, what were they about?

[guinnessford]

Nothing would surprise me, and I would tend to lean towards favoring this notion, Cog.

Its all about control: monetary, psychological, or otherwise.

Ruin the people/neighborhood, lower property values while thumbing the groups of people there, and revolving the rel-estate market for their favors.

Also bringing up crime rates, fines, jail terms, police overtime, and crime in general.

Its a pretty devious scheme, but growing up in the "hood" in Boston, and watching the crime/decline/real-estate cycle, it does fit very well together.

Im sure anyone here with 4 brain cells, 10 minutes, and a tour of the hood can pit 2 and 2 together.

Excellent thinking, Cog.

[Cogburn]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gbzOFlm0Avg/SINSlPbgBBI/AAAAAAAAAys/4dXardOvI44/s400/gangsta%2Bcd.jpg

Gang symbology or sigil magick?

I'm tracking an elusive beast through the forest and I'm not quite sure what it is, where it's headed, or even where I am at myself at this point.

Why use such imagery if you did not see it used in a pre-existing context that you found appealing? Copycat symbology indicates an ideological sycophant of varying degree.

Again assuming all of the stated thoughts in my OP to be true, would not the adoption of such signs then be like sending up a flag saying "Here I am! I am an organization that borrowed from your philosophy!" and would not such a group be easier to subvert or, at the very least, understand?

Does the fact that the Folk Nation and most sheriff's use a 6 pointed star as an emblem mean that they are in direct cahoots? Certainly not, however when one digs into the philosophical cores of the organization and the roots from which the use of the emblem arises, suddenly they don't seem all that ideologically distant. Gang emblems represent both the history and philosophy of the organization, just as any other organizations symbology would suggest. Similar origins create similar psychology which is drawn to similar symbology.

So much has been made of the 6 pointed star once one thinks about it...

http://www.nationalconcernedofficers.com/sign08.gifhttp://www.jewishjournal.com/images/bloggers_auto/israel_flag.jpg
http://www.badgesource.com/85fullsize/page27.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg/180px-Interwoven_unicursal_hexagram.svg.pnghttp://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/borninblood.jpg

SMOM, SOJJ, the freemasons and West Coast Choppers. The Hells Angel's and Harvard Law School. Islam and the Tot-Lot Posse.

Only within the realm of resolving such dichotomy does the Western civilization become at the same time both simpler and increasingly complex.

Wars between brothers and soulmates posing as bitter rivals. A Shakespearean romance played out on the pages of history with a million billion characters but only a handful of speaking parts. The play is even so deviously constructed as most of the participants don't realize they have a role to be played if they wished for it or not.

[theeindiee]

That's an interesting book cover, showing the relation of the star of david and the compass and rule...

I had this crazy vision yesterday, cog. I envisioned exactly that. The star of david, first.... then the compass and rule over the star... and then in the middle, the g was replaced by an illuminated eye and the middle of the compass with the eye turned into the floating capstone of the all seeing eye...

I tend to think that the g represents the eye of horus or some equivalent of (especially symbolism also related to the spiral)...


we need to figure out who the rival gangs are and we need to get better weapons. Simple as that. Or maybe get the rival gangs to work for us.

You know what's weird. I get this feeling still that something is going to happen to Obama. I get this feeling that it will coincide with a big market dive, and panic in the streets. I get the feeling that this will be race wars pt2..... maybe part 3 or 4.... but race wars AGAIN is the point. The gangs will take control of the urbs and the inner suburbs, while the military will only be able to control outlying suburbs and small towns.

See, this is all gunna be a big muddy distraction. Whites scared of blacks and latinos, the classes clashing, the military getting all in the way.... and blackwater is just itching to get active as fuck around your neighborhood. All the while, we are fighting and ignoring the real rival. The real rival is not classes or racial lines. The real rival is corporatism. We cannot allow corporatism to get beyond our atmosphere.
Somehow, we gotta convince all of these warring classes, races, nations, yada yada yada.... to come together under one cause.

Now... on a humanity-sized scale... how do we do that? I don't think we can do that without seeing the worst of THIS NOW. The rivalries are heating up, people are getting more and more afraid of each other, ignorance is at an astronomically all time high... street preachers are making millions selling fucking divinatied tap water.... and honestly, I don't know anything to do other than be myself and continue doing what I'm meant to do. Ya know... I'll be a hero if the present moment calls for it, but to go on some holy crusade to usher in peace... it's not gunna be achieved by one man. All men must decide that fighting each other is boring.... and at this point, they will find something else to fight. Because peace is boring. Victory is sweet, but the fight to victory is what makes it sweet.

Some people will recognize their role as something which they just do anyway, and there needs not be a divine revvelation. They just ARE that thing which they are. They serve their purpose and that is fine. Too many big names would make it a convoluted thing.

But some people could use a reminder because their roles are a little "bigger" than others who just work behind the scenes. Some people have got to be shown how that the theater is just a stage for an orchestrated event. For some, just to know they are acting out an event is enough. Some will wanna know how the stage is made, where the shortcuts are to the backstage, what the other actors are doing so he can anticipate his timing more accurately...

There's no big secret. As long as you can figure out your role in the play, you can act it however way you see fit.

I was reading an Alice Bailey book today where she said something to that effect. Saying that sleepers basically are the living dead. You don't really become alive until you wake up to the play going on and take your role to new heights.

[Hazelnut]

What happened Cog? Did you get bored with this?

It seems unfinished to me.

And Indiee, amazing thoughts.

[mojo]

gang life is an addiction as strong as any drug.

[guinnessford]

And also has the same withdrawl symptoms.

[mojo]

And also has the same withdrawl symptoms.


for all the negative press surrounding gangs and gang life, for some they are the only thing keeping them alive.

[MissA]

I'm still confused.

Caesar Augustus (Octavian) wasn't the offspring of Antony and Cleopatra. His mother was Atia and his father was Gaius Octavius. He was the adopted son of Julius Caesar in his will.

The offspring of Antony and Cleopatra were put into the care of Octavia (Antony's wife and Octavian/Augustus's sister) and Caeserian (child by Julius Caesar) was put to death by Augustus.

There was no link to Egypt that survived, furthermore the Ptolemy dynasty was Greek.

Where is the Roman connection aside from their dead bodies being dragged back to Rome for the tribute parade?

*also Jesus was supposedly born during the reign of Augustus but raised under Tiberius (adopted son of Augustus because of relationship to Livia Drusilla)

Now, maybe the library didn't burn and that info was dragged to Rome (possibly), and there was the occupation of Egypt so there is a connection there.

Just not a blood one.

[guinnessford]

for all the negative press surrounding gangs and gang life, for some they are the only thing keeping them alive.


Although I didnt grow up directly in the hood, I was on the next block, and alot of the kids I hung with and went to school with had no choice but to join.

Survival, whether it was safety in numbers, affiliation, or a way to put food on the table for little sister and mom.

Seems there is a choice when you grow up below a certain income level most areas, crime/drug use/sales/gangs or try to get hired somewhere with a public school education (a whole other story along with flouride/mercury/blah we can discuss later) and try to make it on minimum wage.

[Cogburn]

I'm still confused.

Caesar Augustus (Octavian) wasn't the offspring of Antony and Cleopatra. His mother was Atia and his father was Gaius Octavius. He was the adopted son of Julius Caesar in his will.

The offspring of Antony and Cleopatra were put into the care of Octavia (Antony's wife and Octavian/Augustus's sister) and Caeserian (child by Julius Caesar) was put to death by Augustus.

There was no link to Egypt that survived, furthermore the Ptolemy dynasty was Greek.

Where is the Roman connection aside from their dead bodies being dragged back to Rome for the tribute parade?

*also Jesus was supposedly born during the reign of Augustus but raised under Tiberius (adopted son of Augustus because of relationship to Livia Drusilla)

Now, maybe the library didn't burn and that info was dragged to Rome (possibly), and there was the occupation of Egypt so there is a connection there.

Just not a blood one.

Yes and no.

While Rome did not physically "rule" Egypt, Roman influence was more prominent in Egypt than their own rulers by the time of Ptolemy II Philadelphus. After Augustus (~27BC), Egypt was absorbed into the Roman empire as a province, and remained that way for nearly 3 centuries.

I think I may have presented it to be a little more cut-and-dried than in actuality for the sake of argument, but I'm not sure the nitty gritty details invalidate my point.

I could always be wrong. :)

[MissA]

Yes, the whole world was absorbed. Such was Rome. As awful as it probably was to the people being occupied you have to hand it to the Romans for their organizational and engineering skills which made this possible.

They also were long term planers/thinkers. I believe a unified religion (much like the Egyptians had for a while) was in the works from the time of Julius Caesar. The Catholic (universal) church was planned, IMO, and it was a coin toss as to whether they would steal the sect of Yeshua worshippers or Mithraism.

[Cogburn]

When I wrote that I had not yet attained the 32°, I had not read the works of Giordano Bruno, and I had not hit my stride with my education in my chosen profession.

What a difference a year makes. :)

My OP premise was wrong: it is not an ideological connection between these groups, it is a psychological connection. There are absolute continuum that may be evident as common traits between these peer groups.

What's the absolute continuum between freemasons, the state of Israel, county sheriffs and street gangs have in common? The establishment and maintenance of systems of social authority.

The comparison to other groups and/or individuals who have adopted the hexagram as their symbolism would further prove or disprove that hypothesis.

The attraction to varieties of symbols and geometry are psychological. Psychological archetypes universal because of human genetics: alter the genetics, alter the psychology perceived through it.

What then is the common genetic traits which create the psychology that attributes particular meaning to those symbols?

If you're one who subscribes to theories of extraterrestrial intervention in the genetic development of humanity.... :cool:

[Hazelnut]

What then is the common genetic traits which create the psychology that attributes particular meaning to those symbols?

Excellent question. Is there an answer?

[Cogburn]

Excellent question. Is there an answer?

Dunno. That is way outside my bailiwick.

It would require a conglomeration of disciplines to answer that question.

I'll check around through journal publications because I'm not sure anyone is looking to answer that question, or if the question itself is even correct to ask based on known science.

[MrPenny]

Excellent question. Is there an answer?

Maybe it's not a question of biology and more one of culture. Are there "memetic" traits that attribute meanings to symbols?

[Hazelnut]

I'll check around through journal publications because I'm not sure anyone is looking to answer that question, or if the question itself is even correct to ask based on known science.

It would be great if you found something, one way or the other.

Oddly, I'm drawn to symbolism but don't know why.

[WITCH HUNT]

Oddly, I'm drawn to symbolism but don't know why.

Exactly! That is his point Hazel

[Hazelnut]

Exactly! That is his point Hazel

But we can't just leave it at that! I want to know the answer to "why"! *stamps feet*

:grin:

[Cogburn]

Maybe it's not a question of biology and more one of culture. Are there "memetic" traits that attribute meanings to symbols?

There are specific attributions to any given symbol which are undoubtedly memetic, however I was wondering on my drive into the office if my question wasn't overly complicated.

Most geometric symbolism which bears, as you correctly termed it, memetic traits finds an analog within nature: this ranges from the simple circle, to the Fibonacci sequence derived from Euclid's 47th proposition.

As all life on earth is derived from the same basic genetic composition, the recognition of such naturally occurring geometries may then absolutely be attributed to the genetic composition of humanity in general.

We are simply recognizing that which exists within ourselves and attempting to ascribe a meaning to such recognition through 15,000 years of recorded anecdotal experience.

The meaning derived from it and the importance placed upon it would then be purely memetic.

[WhispersInTheDark]

The sympathy part of the third degree sign is just a triple Amkon facepalm.

I doubt if street gangs have any analogy for it except for feeling for the bullet hole for a few milliseconds.

[Hazelnut]

There are specific attributions to any given symbol which are undoubtedly memetic, however I was wondering on my drive into the office if my question wasn't overly complicated.

Most geometric symbolism which bears, as you correctly termed it, memetic traits finds an analog within nature: this ranges from the simple circle, to the Fibonacci sequence derived from Euclid's 47th proposition.

As all life on earth is derived from the same basic genetic composition, the recognition of such naturally occurring geometries may then absolutely be attributed to the genetic composition of humanity in general.

We are simply recognizing that which exists within ourselves and attempting to ascribe a meaning to such recognition through 15,000 years of recorded anecdotal experience.

The meaning derived from it and the importance placed upon it would then be purely memetic.

Does that mean then, that humans are genetically recalling the memories of their ancestors through visual stimulation of symbols?

[Cogburn]

Does that mean then, that humans are genetically recalling the memories of their ancestors through visual stimulation of symbols?

I'm not sure I would term it so specifically as that, however it is obviously a cultural trait that has existed through all cultures in history.

The hypothesis I am asserting is that this is a subliminal recognition of these naturally occurring geometries arises from the very nature of the genetic makeup of life on Earth.

[Hazelnut]

Like creation is speaking through all things and the interpretation is also the creation.

Or something like that.

[MrPenny]

The hypothesis I am asserting is that this is a subliminal recognition of these naturally occurring geometries arises from the very nature of the genetic makeup of life on Earth.

Given the fractal nature of even geology, nevermind anything in biology, is it out of the scope of the question to consider it as a function of matter itself?

Plants have been shown to utilize quantum entanglement in the process of photosynthesis. Seems straightforward that if one example of an incredibly necessary and basic natural process uses such a mechanism, that their may be many more examples of quantum entanglement producing what we refer to as "instinct", or subliminal responses.

[Cogburn]

Given the fractal nature of even geology, nevermind anything in biology, is it out of the scope of the question to consider it as a function of matter itself?

Plants have been shown to utilize quantum entanglement in the process of photosynthesis. Seems straightforward that if one example of an incredibly necessary and basic natural process uses such a mechanism, that their may be many more examples of quantum entanglement producing what we refer to as "instinct", or subliminal responses.

All we know is that life, and by extension sentience, is a product of electrochemical processes. As we know that these processes function based upon behaviors described by quantum physics, your assertion isn't all that off-the-mark. It is, in fact, the very foundation of Pythagorean thought... and freemasonry.

At that point, however, the discussion turns almost philosophical: what is the nature of being human?

Unfortunately until we have some level of sentience with which to draw a comparison, there's little exploration or experimentation to be performed.

[WhispersInTheDark]

All we know is that life, and by extension sentience, is a product of electrochemical processes.


How can it be categorically stated that the electrochemical process is not a product of life, and by extension, sentience?

This is not in allusion to another question posed by the resident genius street philosopher Inches.

[guinnessford]

When I wrote that I had not yet attained the 32°, I had not read the works of Giordano Bruno, and I had not hit my stride with my education in my chosen profession.

What a difference a year makes. :)

My OP premise was wrong: it is not an ideological connection between these groups, it is a psychological connection. There are absolute continuum that may be evident as common traits between these peer groups.

What's the absolute continuum between freemasons, the state of Israel, county sheriffs and street gangs have in common? The establishment and maintenance of systems of social authority.

The comparison to other groups and/or individuals who have adopted the hexagram as their symbolism would further prove or disprove that hypothesis.

The attraction to varieties of symbols and geometry are psychological. Psychological archetypes universal because of human genetics: alter the genetics, alter the psychology perceived through it.

What then is the common genetic traits which create the psychology that attributes particular meaning to those symbols?

If you're one who subscribes to theories of extraterrestrial intervention in the genetic development of humanity.... :cool:


Whats your feelings on the connection of Cosa nostra (back in the day) and the Mason?

I see more of a resemblance between those 2 than common street gans of today.

What makes me think that is the importance of ritual acts, and the leadership "pyramid", if that is seen by anyone else, or makes sense.

Most gangs and organisations of today are less structured, mostly for the purpose of confusion and the ability to dodge prosecution.

Inside the group the see the top and bottom, but dont show it...kinda like not saluting on the battlefield.

[Cogburn]

How can it be categorically stated that the electrochemical process is not a product of life, and by extension, sentience?

This is not in allusion to another question posed by the resident genius street philosopher Inches.

We know this because identical processes have been observed in nature independent of the existence of discernible life.

Does the process continue without observation? Yes.

How do we know? Starlight. Some starlight was generated by electrochemical processes that predate the existence of the Earth, itself.

[MrPenny]

As we know that these processes function based upon behaviors described by quantum physics,

Yes, but we've historically considered those processes in a "local" way; confined to "us", and to "you". Now, quantum entanglement shows up in a completely natural function. Admittedly within the locality of a single plant. Yet, entanglement has been measured at distances of 10km.

Since your question seeks enlightenment about how "ideas" propogate.....it seems fair to consider some possibility of action at quantum levels as yet unknown.

[Cogburn]

it seems fair to consider some possibility of action at quantum levels as yet unknown.

Unknown by quantifiable science perhaps, but I can name at least 4 different spiritual systems which have proven to be completely analogous to the "discoveries" of modern science.

Let's not forget that all of modern science arises from the medieval spiritual pursuits: all scientific regimen was invented to explain or describe the nature of the experience of the divine.

Somewhere along the line we convinced ourselves that science was something less than a holy quest.

[Cogburn]

Whats your feelings on the connection of Cosa nostra (back in the day) and the Mason?

I see more of a resemblance between those 2 than common street gans of today.

What makes me think that is the importance of ritual acts, and the leadership "pyramid", if that is seen by anyone else, or makes sense.

Most gangs and organisations of today are less structured, mostly for the purpose of confusion and the ability to dodge prosecution.

Inside the group the see the top and bottom, but dont show it...kinda like not saluting on the battlefield.

Given that freemasonry has been documented to have been in existence since the 14th century, it's not too far to assume that other organizations which arose afterwards would follow a design that had proven to be effective in retaining membership and secrecy over many generations.

The method of interpretation might then be unique to the culture from which the organization arose and the purposes to which it is dedicated.

[Cogburn]

Wow GF... that really brought it back to the OP, didn't it?

Is it the act of ritual initiation that "unlocks" or "activates" that portion of the human psyche that provides for the recognition and comprehension of naturally occurring geometric patterns?


Police, the military, becoming a citizen, joining a religion, becoming a member of a fraternal (or sororal) organization... all have their own forms of indoctrination and initiation before you are considered "one of us."

+1 for inspiring big thoughts.

[MrPenny]

Somewhere along the line we convinced ourselves that science was something less than a holy quest.

If my point of view was aligned that way I might say "sure, it could be that."

Or, it's some bright people wanting to know how stuff works....and no more than that. Frankly, equating science with such appears to be purely faith driven, when it could be equally equated with something as noble as farming. Or a really good tailor.

Nonetheless....given the propensity for pattern creation, considering fractals especially, why should the spread of symbology be limited to biological genes when patterns and pattern recognition may be hardwired into the very quantum structure of existence?

[egg]

If my point of view was aligned that way I might say "sure, it could be that."

Or, it's some bright people wanting to know how stuff works....and no more than that. Frankly, equating science with such appears to be purely faith driven, when it could be equally equated with something as noble as farming. Or a really good tailor.

Nonetheless....given the propensity for pattern creation, considering fractals especially, why should the spread of symbology be limited to biological genes when patterns and pattern recognition may be hardwired into the very quantum structure of existence.

What the dog in the rain hat said.

[Cogburn]

If my point of view was aligned that way I might say "sure, it could be that."

Or, it's some bright people wanting to know how stuff works....and no more than that. Frankly, equating science with such appears to be purely faith driven, when it could be equally equated with something as noble as farming. Or a really good tailor.

Nonetheless....given the propensity for pattern creation, considering fractals especially, why should the spread of symbology be limited to biological genes when patterns and pattern recognition may be hardwired into the very quantum structure of existence?

Ahhhhhh..... the attribution of nobility to work is the basic nature of the spiritual experience.

"Symbology," by definition, requires sentience by which such patterns might be interpreted and thereby given meaning. The nature of that interpretation is directly related to the nature of that sentience. As sentience is a function of genetics...

[guinnessford]

Wow GF... that really brought it back to the OP, didn't it?

Is it the act of ritual initiation that "unlocks" or "activates" that portion of the human psyche that provides for the recognition and comprehension of naturally occurring geometric patterns?


Police, the military, becoming a citizen, joining a religion, becoming a member of a fraternal (or sororal) organization... all have their own forms of indoctrination and initiation before you are considered "one of us."

+1 for inspiring big thoughts.


Yeah, I really put some thought into it this time, like I promised!

I wanna be a better member..

But yeah, it seems like the "mafia" followed something that worked, assuming they came after freemasonry/knights/ blah blah...hidden/secret societies and took their rules and followed em to an extent.

Theres alot of symbolism in the Cosa Nostra initiations and other button meetings, sit downs, etc.

Probably not too outside the boxt to think maybe the first mafioso's were masons.

[egg]

What makes me think that is the importance of ritual acts, and the leadership "pyramid", if that is seen by anyone else, or makes sense.

Most gangs and organisations of today are less structured, mostly for the purpose of confusion and the ability to dodge prosecution.

Inside the group the see the top and bottom, but dont show it...kinda like not saluting on the battlefield.

It's part of the human psyche. Look at every religion, what do they have in common.
Repetition
Repetition
Repetition
Repetition
They're all OCD
If you're a Catholic you use the rosary and say so many hail marys, etc
If you're a muslim you lay down your rug, face mecca and pray 5 times,
if you're a Jew, you dahven.
We like structure, there's magic in it.

[Cogburn]

Yeah, I really put some thought into it this time, like I promised!

I wanna be a better member..

But yeah, it seems like the "mafia" followed something that worked, assuming they came after freemasonry/knights/ blah blah...hidden/secret societies and took their rules and followed em to an extent.

Theres alot of symbolism in the Cosa Nostra initiations and other button meetings, sit downs, etc.

Probably not too outside the boxt to think maybe the first mafioso's were masons.

Enter the 19th century "Carbonari"....

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1844987
http://www.jstor.org/action/showArticleImage?image=images%2Fpages%2Fdtc.51.tif .gif&doi=10.2307%2F1844987

[Cogburn]

We like structure, there's magic in it.

That's what Pythagoras tried to tell people.

3,000 years later... there's Pink Floyd in concert.

[egg]

That's what Pythagoras tried to tell people.

3,000 years later... there's Pink Floyd in concert.

Well, it was definitely a step in the right direction :D

When's the last time they played, anyway?

[Cogburn]

Well, it was definitely a step in the right direction :D

When's the last time they played, anyway?

Officially... The Pulse tour in the mid 90s.

Unofficially, 2005 in Gdansk, billed under David Gilmour.

I've got tickets to see Roger Waters perform "The Wall" live. The tour is currently on the east coast, I believe.

[MrPenny]

"Symbology," by definition, requires sentience by which such patterns might be interpreted and thereby given meaning.

The sentience is only required to define it. And that's an important distinction. "Symbology" requires it, not the existence of the patterns. Crystals need no sentience to create fractal patterns. The Nautilus shell is created with no level of sentience that we can recognize.

The patterns are still going to exist.....whether a sentient creature is there to interpret them or not.

[Cogburn]

The sentience is only required to define it. And that's an important distinction. "Symbology" requires it, not the existence of the patterns. Crystals need no sentience to create fractal patterns. The Nautilus shell is created with no level of sentience that we can recognize.

The patterns are still going to exist.....whether a sentient creature is there to interpret them or not.

I don't believe I ever argued that.

It would be that very aspect of reality that gives meaning to what egg had said:

We like structure, there's magic in it.

[guinnessford]

It's part of the human psyche. Look at every religion, what do they have in common.
Repetition
Repetition
Repetition
Repetition
They're all OCD
If you're a Catholic you use the rosary and say so many hail marys, etc
If you're a muslim you lay down your rug, face mecca and pray 5 times,
if you're a Jew, you dahven.
We like structure, there's magic in it.


Nothing too secret about them, besides what they do with the "K.T.S"

(Kid toucher society)

But Ive never heard of too many Hacedic (sp?) molesters, or Muslim tree-jumpers....just the ol catholicism pecker peekers.

I do see the repetition thing, along with symbolism, though.

Cool read there Cog.

[guinnessford]

Also, does symbology gather most of its energy and influence from the practitioners beleif and practice?

Like a faith thing?

And could you also find energy and use from almost any symbol, if used right?

Im at work now, but Im gonna try to look into the symbology thing....if anyone could maybe give a clue for me where to look?

[Cogburn]

But Ive never heard of too many Hacedic (sp?) molesters, or Muslim tree-jumpers....just the ol catholicism pecker peekers.


There's still some questionable practices in modern Judaism. The practice of metzitzah b'peh is still practiced in some communities in NYC. It is a practice where the mohel (or rabbi performing circumcision) uses his mouth to stop any bleeding that may occur during the process. Yes, he sucks the baby's cock. it is rare and widely frowned upon; however a mohel in NYC a few years ago was accused of spreading herpes(?) to several infants, a few of which died.


Also, does symbology gather most of its energy and influence from the practitioners beleif and practice?

Like a faith thing?

And could you also find energy and use from almost any symbol, if used right?

Im at work now, but Im gonna try to look into the symbology thing....if anyone could maybe give a clue for me where to look?

The subscription to the spiritual or metaphysical is a key requirement for the operation of transpersonal psychology: you can't have the experience unless you are open to it.

This very aspect of the divine is very compelling, in my opinion. It is a statement of our integral relationship with the universe, while at the same time acknowledging free will.

There's a book I'd recommend called "Decoding Design" by Maggie Macnab (http://www.amazon.com/Decoding-Design-Understanding-Symbols-Communication/dp/1581809697). It is a book geared towards graphic artists instructing them in how to employ natural shapes into their artwork to convey memetic value.

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I'd also recommend "On the Composition of Images, Signs and Ideas" by Giordano Bruno. It's been out of print for almost 30 years, but there's a copy available on lulu.com.

http://www.lulu.com/product/hardcover/on-the-composition-of-images-signs-ideas/11268346

It is a far more in-depth and scientific work than "Decoding Design," and as such they make an excellent pair for the study of the power of symbolism.

[BE2]

There's still some questionable practices in modern Judaism. The practice of metzitzah b'peh is still practiced in some communities in NYC. It is a practice where the mohel (or rabbi performing circumcision) uses his mouth to stop any bleeding that may occur during the process. Yes, he sucks the baby's cock. it is rare and widely frowned upon; however a mohel in NYC a few years ago was accused of spreading herpes(?) to several infants, a few of which died.


Oh and don't forget- the Chasidim still press the blood from christian babies to make matzoh on Passover. You're a stupid and mindless fuck. Do you know that, Wienerputz?

[guinnessford]

Cool stuff Cog, Im gonna look into that book after work.

And along with that oral-band aid thing, slightly unrelated...I remember reading of some group of possibly south american moms that would sooth their infants that way.

Strange to us, normal to them.

But also, the small group of jews you are referring to is so grossly outnumbered by the collared pickle smoochers its incredible....and still quite sickening the way it happens, and especially how its STILL dealt with after all this time.

[Cogburn]

Oh and don't forget- the Chasidim still press the blood from christian babies to make matzoh on Passover. You're a stupid and mindless fuck. Do you know that, Wienerputz?

Stick to aliens and UFOs. Reality isn't your bag.


Before the Bris: How to Protect Your Infant Against Herpes Virus Infection Caused by metzitzah b’peh

Circumcision has health benefits. Recently, however, the Health Department has documented several cases of herpes infection in newborns after circumcisions that included metzitzah b'peh. Metzitzah b'pehis a religious practice performed by some mohelim (religious circumcisers) in the Jewish community. Some of these infants became seriously ill. One baby died, and another suffered brain damage.Communicable Disease
Because there is no proven way to reduce the risk of herpes infection posed by metzitzah b'peh, the Health Department recommends that infants being circumcised not undergo metzitzah b'peh.

To help you protect your baby, we want to make sure that parents understand the risk of metzitzah b'peh BEFORE the day of the bris, while there is time to explore other options.

How metzitzah b'peh spreads herpes
In metzitzah b'peh, the mohel places his mouth on the freshly circumcised penis to draw blood away from the cut. If the mohel is infected with oral herpes (as most adults are), metzitzah b'peh can expose the infant to the herpes virus. While severe illness associated with this practice may be rare , there is a definite risk of infection.

Oral herpes spreads easily through saliva, especially when saliva touches a cut or break in the skin, such as during metzitzah b'peh.Most people with oral herpes don't know they are infected and don't have symptoms. Even without symptoms, however, people can spread the infection.

Because the immune system of newborns is not developed enough to fight serious infection, herpes infections pose grave risks to infants.

There is no proven way to reduce the risk of metzitzah b'peh
Although a mohel may use oral rinses or sip wine before metzitzah b'peh, there is no evidence that these actions reduce the spread of herpes. A mohel who takes antiviral medication may reduce the risk of spreading herpes virus during metzitzah b'peh, but there is no evidence that taking medication eliminates this risk.

Many mohelim do NOT practice metzitzah b'peh
While some religious authorities consider metzitzah b'peh the only acceptable way to draw blood away from the circumcision cut, others use different means. For example, some mohelim use a glass tube – or a glass tube attached to a rubber bulb – to suction blood in a way that does not include contact between the mohel's mouth and the baby's cut. Others use a sponge or sterile gauze pad to wipe blood away. Unlike metzitzah b'peh, there is no evidence that any of these practices causes infection.

Ask about metzitzah b'peh BEFORE the day of the bris
Some parents whose infants had metzitzah b'peh say they did not know the mohel would perform it. The Health Department recommends that parents ask the mohel several days before the bris if he practices metzitzah b'peh. This will give time to talk to your doctor and consider other options for circumcision.

For more information on circumcision, talk to your family doctor or pediatrician.

An Open Letter to the Jewish Community from the New York City Health Commissioner (PDF, dated 2005) (http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/std/std-bris-commishletter.pdf)