AVRO ARROW - Who Put The Thumbscrews To This One?

[Ducky]

Canadians made a mark for themselves in the 1950's.

For those who are unfamiliar:

[offsite:2nfqf0nz]It's the closest thing Canadian industry has to a love story and a murder mystery. The Avro Arrow, a sleek white jet interceptor developed in Malton, Ontario in the 1950s, could have been many things. It might have become the fastest plane in the world, our best defence against Soviet bombers, the catalyst to propel Canada to the forefront of the aviation industry. Instead, it became a $400-million pile of scrap metal, and the stuff of legends[/offsite:2nfqf0nz]

SOURCE (http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/aeronautics/topics/275/)

Supposed to do Mach 5?!!?!?!? Jesus H............

THAT WAS ALMOST UNHEARD OF IN THE 1950'S?!?!

WHO decided to kill this project and for what means?

Don't say it had to do with $$$$$$$$$$$MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$ because, that NEVER STOPPED the military before.
This is one of the greatest MILITARY COVERUPS in history!!!!!!!!!

Any tangible remains are extremely RARE.

It was such an ADVANCED aircraft that intel thought that Canada couldn't keep the secrets from others.

So...who put the fuckin thumbscrews to this one?

[Ducky]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/CanuckyDucky/AvroArrow.jpg

[Ducky]

Did the Yanks tell the Canucks to get rid of the Avro, because they (U.S.) were afraid that the technology was going to fall into Russian hands?

The Americans had techno to spy on everyone, however, the Canadians had technology to spy not only on everyone, but the Americans as well.

Canadians were at the forefront of it all.

Somebody didn't like that one bit.

[MBF]

I read the reason a while back, the US had it killed for some reason but I don't remember right off hand. It's a shame, sounds like it would have been a great bird.

[Ducky]

I read the reason a while back, the US had it killed for some reason but I don't remember right off hand. It's a shame, sounds like it would have been a great bird.

Imagine where this 'great bird' would be today, had not the plug been pulled?

MFB? Can you find any info on what you read? Most appreciated.

[mojo]

I suggest looking into John Frost and some of his collegues for an answer.

http://www.avroarrow.org/Avrocar/Avrocar.html

[offsite:3tvbb6od]The CIA had interrogated a number of former German soldiers who claimed of having worked on saucer-like aircraft. As it turned out, members of the RCAF and National Research Council (NRC) had also interrogated some of these German engineers about this strange work.

In 1959, a book entitled, "German Secret Weapons of the Second World War," claimed the Foo Fighters were the product of Hitler's war machine. One individual who believed the Nazis had developed such, devices was aeronautical engineer John C. Frost of A.V. Roe Canada Limited. Avro, as the com pany came to be called, had succeeded in designing, building and flying the Jetliner, the first commercial, inter-city jet transport to fly in North America, back in 1949. Frost himself had been brought in from the U.K. to work on the CF-100 and now, the company was embarking on its most ambitious project, the CF-105 Arrow. A flying saucer seemed a natural progression for such an advanced high technology aeronautical firm.
Avro engineer John Frost was project director for the Avrocar. Prior to that he was a project engineer on the CF- 100 jet fighter.
Frost was made chief design engineer for Special Projects A.V. Roe (SPAR). By 1952, not to be left behind in the technological race for vertical take-off and landing vehicles, he had coauthored two technical reports for the design of a circular wing vehicle or, flying saucer. Initially the vehicle was more of a horseshoe or spade shape design. It was called Project Y. It would sit on its tail at an angle, with the pilot looking skyward, as he would if he were in a rocket. He would land in a similar fashion. This made take-off and landing rather difficult and uncertain for the pilot.
Frost abandoned Project Y and eventually settled on the complete circular wing planform. It became known as Project Y2 in 1954 and was to be developed under intense security at the Avro plant in Malton, Ont.[/offsite:3tvbb6od]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carver_Meadows_Frost

[offsite:3tvbb6od]John Carver Meadows Frost known as "Jack" (1915 in Walton-on-Thames, England – 9 October 1979 in Auckland, New Zealand) was a British aircraft designer. His primary contributions centred on pioneering supersonic British experimental aircraft and as the chief designer who shepherded Canada's first jet fighter project, the Avro Canada CF-100, to completion. He was also the major force behind the Avro Canada VTOL aircraft projects, particularly as the unheralded creator of the Avro Canada flying saucer projects.[/offsite:3tvbb6od]

[MBF]

Imagine where this 'great bird' would be today, had not the plug been pulled?

MFB? Can you find any info on what you read? Most appreciated.

I'll see if I can find the info for you. May take a couple of days because I'm kind of busy right now.

[MBF]

Found this in Wikipedia.


In 1961, the RCAF obtained 66 CF-101 Voodoo aircraft, one of the American designs the RCAF originally rejected,[19] to serve in the role originally intended for the Avro Arrow. The controversy surrounding this acquisition, and Canada's acquiring nuclear weapons for the Voodoos and Bomarcs eventually contributed to the collapse of the Diefenbaker government in 1963.[20]

I don't think the US wanted somebody else to have a superior bird to any of theirs so they worked out this deal.

[MBF]

Here is a nice little read on the bird.

http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/arrow.htm

[theeindiee]

planes, trains, and automobiles...

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

From 2004:

[offsite:3ioi0zyg]Navy to search for Avro Arrow scale models

Two Canadian warships equipped with high-tech scanners and specially trained divers will begin a search of Lake Ontario for nine scale models of the famed Avro Arrow early next month.

Navy spokesperson Mike Bonin admits it will be like looking for a needle in the haystack.

The models, three-metres long with a two-metre wingspan, are exact replicas of the Arrow, the technologically advanced fighter plane developed in Canada in the 1950s that became a national legend.

The scale models were launched on rockets over the lake during the plane's development to provide flight engineers with technical data.

* FROM CBC ARCHIVES: The Avro Arrow: Canada's Broken Dream (http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/aeronautics/topics/275/)

All nine models crashed into the lake, as expected, and sank to depths of up to 244 metres and would now be obscured by decades of silt.

Aviation enthusiasts and conservation groups have been searching for the lost models ever since. In 1999, two of them were located, but the searchers didn't have required permits.

* FROM JUNE 22, 1999: Avro Arrow model found in Lake Ontario (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1999/06/21/arrow990621.html)

Arrow fans, who believe the jet could have propelled Canada to the forefront of the aviation industry, have mixed emotions about the fact the Canadian military is now taking a lead role.

Author and enthusiast Palmiro Campagna called the navy's search an attempt to right the wrong.

Prime Minister John Diefenbaker abruptly cancelled the Avro program in 1958, citing spiralling costs. More than 14,000 workers were laid off and all Avro Arrow prototypes were destroyed.

cbcnews | Navy to search for Avro Arrow scale models (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/06/25/avrohunt_040625.html)[/offsite:3ioi0zyg]


Hmmmm.... one wonders, did they find any?


Apparently not:


[offsite:3ioi0zyg]Search for Avro Arrow models is unsuccessful

A Canadian navy team wrapped up an unsuccessful three-day search of Lake Ontario for some of the last remnants of the legendary Avro Arrow program.

What they were looking for are nine, one-eighth scale models of the aircraft. The models are believed to have crashed into Lake Ontario.

The models, each about three metres long, were launched over the lake in the 1950s to test the supersonic fighter's aerodynamics.

They were fired off Point Petre just to the west of Kingston, Ont. (The Avro was actually produced at Malton near Toronto). They were believed to have crashed at up to 700 kilometres per hour.

The navy is now trying to find and fish out the pieces -- an admittedly difficult task.

"If the models disintegrated on impact there my only be pieces that are only a few inches high. And now with the zebra mussels and the coaga mussels ...," said Jim Garrington, an oceanic engineer on the project, who didn't hold out much hope anything would be found.

"We've been searching for about 12 years," Frank Harvey, of the Aerospace Heritage Foundation of Canada, told CJOH News. He helped build the Arrow and was on board one of the Navy ships.

"We've just been using small boats with the side-sky radar. Suddenly a large, well-equipped ship from the Navy to assist has been of great benefit to us."

Harvey's group isn't sure whether it can afford to keep looking once this latest effort ends.

CTV.ca | Search for Avro Arrow models is unsuccessful[/offsite:3ioi0zyg]

Here's another good read, ducks:

[offsite:3ioi0zyg]The Avro Arrow: Canada's Broken Dream


The Story

More than 30 years after the Arrow met its demise, "Arrow heads" across Canada are rebuilding the legend. Arrow books and movies are being written, replicas are being built, and parts of the plane are turning up after years of concealment. On CBC Radio's Morningside, Peter Gzowski finds out about the plane's popularity by talking to Arrow fans including journalist June Callwood, who believes that one Arrow may have escaped.

Did You Know?

• In 2002, volunteers at the Toronto Aerospace Museum were building a full-scale, all metal replica of the Avro Arrow. It won't fly, but it is designed to taxi along at six kilometres an hour.

• Another initiative, the "Arrow 2000 Project," hopes to build a flying 2/3-scale replica of the Avro Arrow.

• During the testing period of the Arrow's construction, nine 1/8-scale magnesium alloy models of the plane were launched from Nike missiles into the skies over Lake Ontario. In recent years, several groups have hunted for the models on the lake bottom, and at least two have been found.

• There are many legends of a lone Arrow escaping destruction. In addition to Callwood's speculation about an Iroquois-equipped arrow flying away at dawn, there are tales of an Arrow being spirited away on a covered flatbed truck. Some say that RL-202 cannot be seen in the aerial photos of the destruction, and may have been being fitted with missiles at a different location. None of these stories can be confirmed.


Debating the Arrow's legacy

Historian Michael Bliss and broadcaster and former Avro employee Elwy Yost go head to head on what the Arrow meant to Canada.


The Story

In January 1997, CBC broadcasts a four-hour miniseries called The Arrow that generates powerful reactions from Canadians who love or hate the legendary plane. Calling in to CBC's Radio Noon, historian Michael Bliss calls the miniseries "an orgy of mythologizing," arguing that Avro was a disaster and the Arrow got what it deserved. Broadcaster Elwy Yost, who worked at Avro for six years, says that's the most stupid statement he's heard in 40 years.


Did You Know?

• The Arrow was a two-part series starring Dan Aykroyd as Crawford Gordon. It co-starred Sara Botsford, Michael Ironside, Michael Moriarity and Christopher Plummer. It was shot in Winnipeg, Man. and featured a scale replica of the Arrow built in Wetaskiwin, Alta. by sales estimator Allan Jackson. It was broadcast on Jan. 12 and 13, 1997. The movie's "docudrama" format was generally well received, but irritated some viewers who wanted greater historical accuracy.

• Michael Bliss is a University of Toronto history professor. He has published a dozen books and is noted for his studies of Canadian medical history.

• Bliss tells his history students that the last Avro Arrow did indeed escape, and is stored in a barn in Saskatchewan. "It is taken out and flown once a year. By Elvis."

• Film historian Elwy Yost hosted TVOntario's Saturday Night at the Movies from 1970 to 1999. News programs aside, it is Canada's longest running television series that is still on the air.

• Yost worked in the personnel department of Avro and was involved in laying off thousands of workers. The last pink slip he issued was to himself.

The Avro Arrow:Canada's Broken Dream (http://members.shaw.ca/b.bogdan/Arrow/avro_arrow.htm)[/offsite:3ioi0zyg]

[Lexion]

If I may inject some insight.

No links, so take as you will.

The U.S. joined into an agree-
ment with Canada.

We Formed NORAD with Canada
in 1958.

The production of long range -
bombers that could drop nukes
were already developed by the
U.S.

The "threat" was handled and con-
tained by our airforce, w/o Canada
having to develop any new air-
frames.

This is off the top of my head, so
please bear with me, and correct if
I'm off-target.

B52 was developed around '53.

Back then, it was all about deployment.

When Canada entered into the NORAD
system, and we had the bombers, it was
no longer neccessary for Canada to do
this development.

They (US & Canada) focused more on the
Cold War.

NORAD was in place, the US had bombers
in place.

Fighter air-frames were an afterthought.

So...it either died...or went black.

Looking at diagrams, I think it died out,
not because it wasn't good enough, but;
it wasn't percieved as needed.

God...I'm typing too much...

Regards,
Lex

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Looking at diagrams, I think it died out,
not because it wasn't good enough, but;
it wasn't percieved as needed.

God...I'm typing too much...

Regards,
Lex


I think that's it right there...damn, you really could have saved yourself a lot of typing...

[mojo]

what lex said....plus i believe a lot of funding was funneled into this program at around about that time as well.

[offsite:3sdw4a8q]He was also the major force behind the Avro Canada VTOL aircraft projects, particularly as the unheralded creator of the Avro Canada flying saucer projects.[/offsite:3sdw4a8q]

[boycotteverything]

AVRO inventor blames shortage of duct tape for cancellation of program

http://www.wpt.org/blog/uploaded_images/redblog5-759068.jpg