Mormons Commit Mass Murder in America - Hidden History?

[Cogburn]

This article is 10 years old... anyone ever heard of this before? News to me...

I'm looking to find more recorded mass murders committed by Mormons but info is hard to come by...

[offsite=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/aug/16/julianborger:1ey07a9q]Mass grave of Mormons' victims found in Utah
Julian Borger in Washington
The Guardian, Monday 16 August 1999 02.24 BST

A mass grave has been unearthed in Utah containing the bones of men, women and children believed to have been victims of a 19th-century massacre by Mormon militiamen.
About 120 pioneers on their way from Arkansas to California in 1857 were slaughtered by the Mormons and their Indian allies at Mountain Meadows, 40 miles north of St George, Utah.

The motives for the massacre remain unclear, but it occurred at a time when the Mormons were obsessed by the possibility of an invasion by the US army, and were bitter about the persecution of Mormons in Arkansas.

The migrants were tricked into laying down their arms by a promise of safe passage, before being killed.

Only a handful of the youngest children were allowed to survive.

The militia leader, Major John Lee, justified the murders as retaliation for an order from Washington to remove the church's founder, Brigham Young, from his job as governor of Utah.

Major Lee was found guilty of the massacre 20 years later and executed. Some historians believe he was made a scapegoat for the Mormon church leadership.

The New York Times reported that the bones of 10 victims were found this month by workmen restoring a monument at the site - a wall built in 1932 around the original rock cairn erected two years after the massacre by federal army troops, who discovered and reburied 36 victims.

An archaeologist from the Mormon-run Brigham Young university in Salt Lake City said: "All evidence substantiates they were victims of the Mountain Meadows massacre."

The local sheriff, Kirk Smith, said the exhumation "just really touched me deeply. I saw buttons, some pottery and bones of adults and children. But the children - that was what really hit me hard."

A private ceremony has been planned for the reburial of the bones at the site.[/offsite:1ey07a9q]

[Kacen]

Mormons have always been scum. They've always been potential separatists. They're second on my list after Jehovah's Witnesses of minorities that need to be snuffed out.

And I'll never forgive them for birthing the godawful dreary contrived bullshit that is Battlestar Galactica.

[pack3tg0st]

A good place to start would be the Mormon Wars...

Most people don't realize this, but when the mormons refused to follow U.S. law, the white house sent troops after them... There's been a bloody history between the United States and Mormon church...

But, you'll never in a million years read that in a history textbook... Another example of "sanitizing" history...

I'll see what I can find for you as well... but During the Mormon Wars, people traveling west were routinely harassed and attacked by the Mormons. They had the feeling that the entire territory of Utah was "theirs".

Here are some time frames: 1st Mormon War (Missouri) late 1830's, The Illinois Mormon war in the 1840's and the Utah Mormon War in the late 1850's...

Sorry I can't remember specific dates... but I'm more of a believer in understanding the concept and reasons on WHY something happened... much to the education system's dismay... they like us to memorize useless data...

[skunk]

There was a special on the boob tube about mormons and the unmarked graves of babies. This was in the border region of Arizona and Utah where the fundamentals live (they're the worst kind of mormon). You'd think with 5 wives there would be a few miscarriages here and there. Sad...

I found this to be interesting:

Post Mormon: Support for people who have left the mormon church (http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/)

[pack3tg0st]

On Sept. 11, 1857, in a meadow in southwestern Utah, a militia of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, attacked a wagon train of Arkansas families bound for California. After a five-day siege, the militia persuaded the families to surrender under a flag of truce and a pledge of safe passage. Then, in the worst butchery of white pioneers by other white pioneers in the entire colonization of America, approximately 140 men, women and children were slaughtered. Only 17 children under the age of 8 - the age of innocence in the Mormon faith - were spared.

After the massacre, the church first claimed that local Paiute Indians were responsible, but as evidence of Mormon involvement mounted, it placed the sole blame for the killings on John D. Lee, a militia member and a Mormon zealot who was also the adopted son of the prophet Brigham Young. After nearly two decades, as part of a deal for statehood, Lee was executed by a firing squad in 1877. The church has been reluctant to assume responsibility - labelling Lee a renegade - but several historians, including some who are Mormon, believe that church leaders, though never prosecuted, ordered the massacre.

Now, 146 years later, Lee's descendants and the victims' relatives have been pressing the Mormon Church for an apology. The move for some official church acknowledgment began in the late 1980's, when a group of Lee descendants, including a former United States secretary of the interior, Stewart Udall, began working to clear their ancestor's name. In 1990, descendants of victims and perpetrators began urging the Mormon Church to accept responsibility for the massacre and to rebuild a crumbling landmark established at the site by United States Army troops in 1859.

The current church president, Gordon B. Hinckley - himself a prophet who says he receives divine revelations - took a personal interest in the episode, and in 1998 he agreed to restore the landmark where at least some of the bodies were buried. But even that concession turned controversial when, in August 1999, a church contractor's backhoe accidentally unearthed the bones of 29 victims. After a debate between Utah state officials and church leaders - what has been called Utah's "unique church-state tango" - about state laws requiring unearthed bones to be forensically examined for cause of death, the church had the remains quickly reburied without any extensive examination that might have drawn new attention to the brutality of the murders.

A month later, on Sept. 10, 1999, when descendants of the perpetrators and the victims gathered to dedicate a church-financed monument in what they hoped would be a "healing" service, both sides were disappointed by Mr. Hinckley's remarks. He continued to hedge on the issue of church responsibility, even adding a legal disclaimer many found offensive. "That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day," he said. This was thought by many to be an effort to avoid wrongful-death lawsuits. But the church's reluctance to apologize is more complicated.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon106.html

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

...they like us to memorize useless data...
It's not useless to them if it feeds their paradigm...

Modern drama concerning the massacre: September Dawn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473700/)

[skunk]

Go fucking figure someone from Brigham City, UT is on right now...

Everybody say hello to the mormons.

[pack3tg0st]

Hey Mormon fuckhead!

Don't fuck with these guys here...

Its me you have beef with... (Trust me... There's some history)

[pack3tg0st]

BTW, LDS is very cult like guys...

I really did have some run ins when I fucked with em before...

They're not exactly as "nice" as they make themselves out to be...

[pack3tg0st]

Hello mormon funny undies!

http://www.suspensionofdisbelief.net/www.suspensionofdisbelief.net/garment.jpg

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

That's hot!

[pack3tg0st]

god I could really go for some mormon bashing right about now...

its kinda fun...

actually, bashing any of the extremist type religions is alot of fun...

Mormons are more fun than scientologists though...

[pack3tg0st]

anyone up for crashing any Mormon forums and pissing people off?

[guinnessford]

"You'd think with 5 wives there would be a few miscarriages here and there. Sad..."

Im gonna also look to see what the inbreed ratio is there.

The most famous family from my area, know for inventing the predecessor to the helicopter, the "Gyro" was mormon, and severely inbred.

Any military people here may know about the Pitcairn family from PA. , they owned the land for the Willow Grove Naval Air Station/Joint Reserve Base.

Invented the Gyro, sold the land to the Gov., and inbred a whole generation...

Wierd crew, they are.

[guinnessford]

anyone up for crashing any Mormon forums and pissing people off?

Im always up for that.

Lets see if we can call out some Mormons on AT--s!

[pack3tg0st]

oooh that could be fun!!!

but, I shouldn't stir up shit on the same sock I fucked with before... or else I'll lose that one too LOL

Edit: Invent some sort of post... linking Springer to some sort of Mormon conspiracy... THAT would be classic :P

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Did jebus wear mormon underwear?

[guinnessford]

Ok, Ima log my sock on there, and hit up a Mormon search!
HAHA! I love fukkin with that place

[Ducky]

That is one fucked up religion :P

Just finished reading an exit letter (http://www.lds-mormon.com/jorgensenexitletter.shtml) about why this one guy left the Mormon church.

Cult? Holy Hannah...

These people are so militant in their beliefs it's not fit.

[pack3tg0st]

I hear the Osmonds joined ATS... Under the names Dbates and Nef...

[guinnessford]

shit cant remember password....

[Cogburn]

The Osmands? Incest, sure... but not mormons. :(

[guinnessford]

I see them more as Scientologists

[Kacen]

anyone up for crashing any Mormon forums and pissing people off?
I can raid some, but honestly there would be other forums on my priority list for raids.

[pack3tg0st]

Just finished reading an exit letter (http://www.lds-mormon.com/jorgensenexitletter.shtml) about why this one guy left the Mormon church.


Great find ducks!!!

I'm gonna bookmark that... I love well written resignation letters to various religions... I toss em out there when I harass religious ppl :P

[Ducky]

I see them more as Scientologists

THAT, and a smidgen of Mason rituals thrown in

[Ducky]

Just finished reading an exit letter (http://www.lds-mormon.com/jorgensenexitletter.shtml) about why this one guy left the Mormon church.


Great find ducks!!!

I'm gonna bookmark that... I love well written resignation letters to various religions... I toss em out there when I harass religious ppl :P

lolol You're welcome!

[pack3tg0st]

I can raid some, but honestly there would be other forums on my priority list for raids.

Nah... Give it a shot...

Hack into the LDS forums (its not that tough)... those forums are for church members only...

have a good laugh at their "serious conversations"

Then start acting like a newbie and asking all sorts of questions that don't have good answers...

so, Joseph smith was the only one who ever saw these golden plates... and then they disappeared after the fact? That doesn't make sense

So if we're good, we seriously become gods of our own planets after we die? how's that work?

When do I get magic underwear?

Its really fun... ask enough questions, and they'll want to send a missionary to your house to talk to you personally... ya know, keep ya on "the path", cause after all, to be in the LDS forums, you need to be a member of the LDS church...

When the Missionary gets there... the fun has just begun...

I've done this often :)

[guinnessford]

Hey, Duck!

Hmm, that could be a possibility.

Lotsa Disney/Mason connections.

That was how they got started I beleive, any knowledge of that, Kacen?

[pack3tg0st]

Read the exit letter that ducks put up :P

One of the reasons that the guy gives is taht he discovered that Joe Smith was a Mason... and stole the ideas for the rituals from the masons...

[GeneralStriker]

definitely a crazy religion (aren't they all...) but at least they're not out murdering gynecologists for jesus.

[Kacen]

Trolling takes too much effort, I'd rather resort to gathering a group of people up, us all registering, and spamming shock images all over their forum.

[pack3tg0st]

LOL that could be fun too...

Its also fun to "join" their church and try and corrupt from the inside...

i've done it 3 times now... thus... the "history" i was talkin' bout :P

[GeneralStriker]

what's the point? they're no more fucked up than any other religion.

[pack3tg0st]

I do it for other religions too LOL

[GeneralStriker]

hahahahah well in that case- good work.

[Ducky]

LOL that could be fun too...

Its also fun to "join" their church and try and corrupt from the inside...

i've done it 3 times now... thus... the "history" i was talkin' bout :P

Omg...reminds me of the time this friend of mine was invited to home social gathering hosted by a group of LDS. A few of us were trying to figure out where he buggered off to, and found him at the home sneaking a few hot knives in the kitchen. He waited til he was pretty toasty, then went in to the living room and sat in on one of their sessions. 5 MINUTES was all he could handle in his chewed state. :P He ran out into the kitchen with a goofy smile on his face and bolted out the door.

[pack3tg0st]

It all started when I was 13... and asked to be excommunicated from my church... (I went atheist)

They wouldn't do it...

Now I join churches, and try to corrupt from the inside... lead more people to think for themselves...

Haven't done it in a while though... might join the mormon temple this weekend...

Nah, probably the Jehovah's Witnesses... they're not quite the pain in the ass the mormons are... but who knows... depends on my motivational levels later this week

[GeneralStriker]

missionaries suck- from either side. just stick with the drugs. ...as long as your teeth hold out.

[Ducky]

It all started when I was 13... and asked to be excommunicated from my church... (I went atheist)

They wouldn't do it...

Now I join churches, and try to corrupt from the inside... lead more people to think for themselves...

Haven't done it in a while though... might join the mormon temple this weekend...

Nah, probably the Jehovah's Witnesses... they're not quite the pain in the ass the mormons are... but who knows... depends on my motivational levels later this week

Whatcha gotta do is find the BESTEST atheist movies (VHS/DVD) - makes sure it's at least 2 hours worth - and wait til one of the cults arrive at your door. When they want to come in to preach, tell them that you'll promise to listen to them ONLY AFTER they watch one of your tapes first. Share and share alike.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Why lower yourselves to their level?

Eh...better things to occupy my time.

Let 'em all go to their respective hells...

[Ducky]

I love Cog's reply in one of the other theads:


You can feel sorry for them and have some fun at their expense at the same time.

[theeindiee]

My AWOL at the moment best friend is from a family of Mormons. I find it highly suspicioous, because he told me his family had denounced the religion and that's why they moved to Illinois... BUUUUT first of all, I see that Illinois is a popular Mormon residency. Did they move away from Mormonism? I dunno, because I've heard talk that Idaho is also a popular Mormon settlement. His dad had just sold his multi-million dollar business, and right before I met him, his mother had mysteriously been allowed to return to the family and his father after disappearing for 7 years and apparently joining a "cult". So, coincidentally afterward his dad sold a MULTIMILLION DOLLAR company he FOUNDED.... and has moved his family around Chicagoland YEARLY to different residencies... suddenly, after Jesse (my friend) has a breakdown for some unknown reason, breaks up with the love of his life and fucks MY girlfriend, tells me that he did it to save my soul (?).... his HUGE immediate family (some whom lived in Arizona, some who lived in various parts of Chicagoland) ALL decide to move out to Idaho at once... including him. Another super strange coincidence... both our former drummer and third musketeer Pete and Jesse's long-time best friend from childhood... ALL decide to use all of their savings to move out there WITH HIM. So they all move out there and I hear back from Nobody (strange because we were all best friends!) except like for every few months, one of them will call and it's a very odd kind of conversation.... they're all like, just different.

I rarely hear from them. It's weird because I have their current phone numbers and I call them monthly to check up on them and see how they're livin', and they never return those phone calls. They instead call at rare out of the blue times and they just avoid telling me much about anything they're doing. It's very odd.

Cults come in all shapes and sizes my friends... and not all of them are viewed as cults by the majority of people. Mormonism is just one of the more readily identifiable of these accepted cults.

Although... I'm sure packet and I will disagree on this... but you should not completely ignore the teachings of "cults" or "religions" just because you've had a bad experience. If you have an open, yet sensical mind, there lies nuggets of golden rich truth behind all of these mental institutions... and that's WHY they are so powerfully influential over people... because they can sense the truth somewhere inside them, but are misguided by highly manipulated dogma and grammatical Bullshit meant to take that truth inside them and turn it into their invisible ego slavedriver... be it a "holier than thou" ego or a "helpless and sinful" ego....

Don't completely lose Faith, Pack. Did you know that the true definition of "faith" does not mean a belief system, but actually "knowledge of the divine through personal experience"?

No religion or cult or institution of any kind can give you true Faith. Not even those who "speak" truth with words can give that to you. Words are yet another institution. Yet another cult.

[GeneralStriker]

Why lower yourselves to their level?i have to agree. it's pointless and a waste of time, not mention- an exercise in futility. and there's also the question of whether you've got anything more profound to offer. (aside from assassinating doctors for jesus, of course.)

[theeindiee]

Same with personalities. You are the Master and the Student. Nobody/thing else!


Also.... why harass victims of Mormon dogma?

Why is it fun? Do you know anything more than them for sure?

[theeindiee]

Striker said what I said in so many words... and yes, don't you have some truth to be seeking? Why not figure it out for yourself instead of using your own dogmas against other dogmas which may be just as silly as yours? That truly is a waste of "time".

[pack3tg0st]

LOL I know people won't agree with me on fuckin' with religions... and I know people will gasp when I say this: I hate blind faith/obedience...

I hate it with a passion...

If I talk to a "believer" and ask why they believe, 95% of them will give a hollow, meaningless bullshit answer...

"It makes so much sense"

"I was raised this way"

"I don't see how it couldn't be true"

those answers are BULLSHIT... the other 5%, will give me a rational, thought out deep response as to why they believe, and what keeps them on track with their faith...

I respect that 5%... I might not respect their beliefs, but I respect their right to believe, and I respect them more as a person...

the other 95% are ignorant sheeple who probably have never even attempted to think for themselves... I want them to think for themselves... even if thinking for themselves leads to them disagreeing with me... I don't give a fuck...at least they have original thoughts in their fuckin' head... Without thinking on your own... you're nothing but a lifeless automadon, who will get absolutely no respect from me at all whatsoever...

If you're told what to think, how can you be "alive?"

I dunno... blind faith, and ignorant obedience drive me fuckin' batty... and in my mind... if it is impossible to lead someone to independent thought... they should off themselves...

Sorry, call it a character flaw... but it pisses me off to no end...

I want motherfuckers to think their own thoughts... I want people to understand what's spoonfed to them to affect their behavior and thoughts...

I want people to TRULY be free...

[GeneralStriker]

yeah, yeah- it's still futile. but if it makes you happy- by all means do it.

[pack3tg0st]

Not as futile as you think...

I've led people to think for themselves...

sometimes it leads them away from the church... sometimes it draws them closer...

I don't care... Once they start thinking, they can start living...

[GeneralStriker]

sounds like you need to examine your messianic complex.

[pack3tg0st]

LOL nah, not really... I'm not any sort of messiah...

Just doing that shit keeps me from going wacko... and breaking the law...

poke at em every now and again... wake some people up...

If I sat here... I'd get so pissed at the various religions working their sense of morality into legislation that I'd be no better than the guy who came at the abortion doc...

And seriously... I'm not kidding.

[theeindiee]

I think packet is right on track... actually. I ask rhetorical questions and say rhetorical things MOST of the time. Be aware of that.

[GeneralStriker]

sounds like you need to lighten up then- and contemplate Macbeth-


Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

[pack3tg0st]

I like shakespear :P

Your point makes perfect intellectual sense to me man... trust me...

Military service triggered something, or maybe shut something down inside me...

Sometimes, i catch myself wishing that a revolution DOES happen, so I can go back out and get in the shit again...

Its sick.. and I'm not proud... but, its really difficult to explain...

[mojo]

not related to mormons, but massacres were not only perpetratred by the mormons, no matter how nutty those fuckers are...anyway....

The Gallina.

Crow Creek.

Native Americans were pretty adept at killing and just as merciless as anyone when it came to women and children.

[pack3tg0st]

The Natives had reason to IMHO...

They were fighting for their very existence...

[GeneralStriker]

massacres were not only perpetratred by the mormonstrue enough. massacres of all manner have been an american pass-time for millenia. hard to see why the mormons were singled out here. but whatever makes us happy....

[GeneralStriker]

The Natives had reason to IMHO...

They were fighting for their very existence...well it's one thing to resist an invader but quite another to fillet his kids. hahahaa

[pack3tg0st]

Turnabout is fair play...

We killed Millions of them...

they killed hundreds/thousands of us...

blanket anyone?

[GeneralStriker]

well i don't know about millions- but we sure did fuck em up.

[torbjon]

*bursts out LAUGHING!!!*

Bash bash bash.

So, nobodies ever vetted me, huh? Christ, I make it sooooooo fucking easy for folks, too *sighs*

I'm a JENSEN you numbnuts, Grandma was a Tims-Day. Those inbred fuckwits you be bashing be me kinfolk *pokes*

Dad was born and raised into that hellhole, and hated every bit of it. He split when he was 17 and joined the military. They shipped him off to California where he met Mum. SHE'S no better, a Baptist from the south she was, and just as inbred. *scratches armpit*

Then came me, see, and the sixties, and drugs galore (woohoo!)

Gig is though, you can't be born and raised into that shit and not have at least Some of it rub off onto you, no matter how much you hate the thing as a whole, ya know?

Theeindiee said some smart shit up there a ways... t'aint ALL bad, what these bozos preach.

I keep a larder. Sure it's "Cultish", sure it's "end of the world doom and gloom" bull shit, but I keep one. *scratches crotch* why not?

Another tenant of the Church is "don't fuck your sister". I'm cool with that, not a problem, I fuck my brothers sister instead. *scratches ass* She looks like a fuzzy duffel bag, but hey, all in the family, right? Works fer me.

Mormons ain't no worse than blacks or jews or nazis or bitches or faggots or freeks or you or me or any other group of people that get singled out for bashing. They're just a group of people... easily bashed by any other group of people. *scratches butt again*

Tha's why I bash everybody. We're ALL fuckheads. Stupid Fuckheads at that. Live with it.

As far as the OP goes, at that point in time that part of the world was a Territory, owned by whoever had the physical power to control it. And, in the then and there, it was the Mormon fuckwits who had the raw physical POWER to control that stretch of land. Possession IS ownership. It was Theirs to do whatever the fuck they wanted to do with it. They went west to Get Away from the "united states of america" and do their own thing. When people "invaded" what they considered to be "their" territory, they killed them *shrugs* So What? That's what people DO to invaders, right? Happenin' right now, all over the world. The OP story ain't the only whites they killed. For every story like that you find there's ten more you Won't find. Not a guess, not a brag, just is. Walk the old trails with a keen eye and you can find the ol' slaughter grounds pretty easily. Despite the few quotes I saw about regrets, nobody there is really ashamed of their past much at all. They HATE the US... they hate the US more than Texas hates the US. Again, so what? It's their right. Nuthin' in the rules that sez "love it or leave it"... in fact, I believe the rules say something like, if you Don't like it, then pick up a fucking weapon and Do something about it, ya freek. (or some such)

We all say "just let us smoke our grass and leave us alone, we ain't hurting no one" and don't understand why folks don't take us seriously...

well, they just wanna fuck their sisters, and save souls for the Latter Days, and otherwise be left alone... what's the harm in that?

oh, and they wanna kill alla them niggers, too.

and the faggots

and the hippies

and keep women barefoot and pregnant...

and ban booze...

and cigarettes...

and coffee...

and rule the world....

but other than that, hey, great buncha guys, really...

they make good honey, too.

"mormon massacres" HA! what a riot.

thanks fer the flash back.

would git some kin in here to liven things up, but, well, most of 'em just can't read or write too well...

[pack3tg0st]

By most accounts... 80% of them man...

In 1976, geographer William Denevan used these various estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people, and more recent estimates range widely. On an estimate of approximately 50 million people in 1492 (including 25 million in the Aztec Empire and 12 million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due to disease of 80% at the end of the 16th century (8 million people in 1650)

Thats just by disease... and before we started actually TRYING to kill them...

by 1900 there were only around 350,000 by most accounts... the lowest census of Natives...

As of the 2000 census... there were only 2,475,956 accounting for .9% of the overall population...

We fucked those guys hard man... harder than textbooks like to admit... They had every right to think we were the devil... they had every reason to believe that if they didn't kill us and our offspring, they would be wiped off the map...

To them, it was a struggle for sheer survival.

[torbjon]

massacres were not only perpetratred by the mormonstrue enough. massacres of all manner have been an american pass-time for millenia. hard to see why the mormons were singled out here. but whatever makes us happy....

correction:

massacres of all manner have been a HUMAN pass-time since the git go...

yes?

[pack3tg0st]

sort of...

at one point in time it was all about Beer and Bread...

[Cogburn]

I'm a JENSEN you numbnuts, Grandma was a Tims-Day.
Could you translate that for those of us in the great unwashed?

[mojo]

Turnabout is fair play...

We killed Millions of them...

they killed hundreds/thousands of us...

blanket anyone?

those 2 examples were of them massacring each other pack, not fighting whitey. :)

Both interesting stories, The Gallina and Crow Creek. The Gallina massacre/genocide occured around 1000AD from memory and the Crow Creek massacre around about 1350AD.

[boycotteverything]

By most accounts... 80% of them man...

In 1976, geographer William Denevan used these various estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people, and more recent estimates range widely. On an estimate of approximately 50 million people in 1492 (including 25 million in the Aztec Empire and 12 million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due to disease of 80% at the end of the 16th century (8 million people in 1650)

Thats just by disease... and before we started actually TRYING to kill them...

by 1900 there were only around 350,000 by most accounts... the lowest census of Natives...

As of the 2000 census... there were only 2,475,956 accounting for .9% of the overall population...

We fucked those guys hard man... harder than textbooks like to admit... They had every right to think we were the devil... they had every reason to believe that if they didn't kill us and our offspring, they would be wiped off the map...

To them, it was a struggle for sheer survival.

In the interest of non-hysterical accuracy, this from that same Wiki- but relating to the massacres- which is what we were discussing-

Determining how many people died in these massacres overall is difficult. In the book The Wild Frontier: Atrocities during the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee, amateur historian William M. Osborn sought to tally every recorded atrocity in the area that would eventually become the continental United States, from early contact (1511) to the closing of the frontier (1890), and determined that 9,156 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Native Americans, and 7,193 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Europeans. Osborn defines an atrocity as the murder, torture, or mutilation of civilians, the wounded, and prisoners.

While there's no doubt that the European invasion of America resulted in the collapse and annihilation of the native peoples, it was certainly not due to 'massacres.' Blankets notwithstanding.

[pack3tg0st]

Still, massacres or not... If white people show up one day... and tons of people get sick...

a non informed culture could assume that white people brought them death...

Think of it from their point of view...

I would consider giving them smallpox laced blankets as an atrocity though...

edit: Don't you fuckers ever sleep? LOL

[mojo]

this might also shed some more light on the "hysteria" surrounding "euoropeans" annihilating indigineous populations. many indigineous populations were pretty good at exterminating their own kind, even before european contact.

here's a good site with information on the Crow Creek massacre.

I was only 25 years off. :)

[offsite:160id3et]What do you think about when you see the bones in the picture? Some people think the picture looks like "the Killing Fields" of Cambodia in Southeast Asia during the late 1970's. The picture reminds other people of the Holocaust in World War II when many people were killed in the concentration camps. Actually, the bones are from an archaeological site in central South Dakota along the Missouri River. Nearly 500 people were the victims of a massacre that occurred early in the 14th Century, around 1325 A.D.[/offsite:160id3et]
http://www.usd.edu/anth/crow/crow1.html

while its certainly true that white settlement of other countries was never all that peaceful or benign most "politically correct" historians would have us believe that indigineous populations ran around hand in hand playing the flute and hand feeding bambi up until we arrived and began slaughtering them by the millions.

sorry for dragging the thread slightly off topic.


lol.


not really.

[pack3tg0st]

Cool page on Crow Creek!

I'm not saying that life was a disney movie before the white guy shows up... I'm just trying to say that the indians had every reason to believe we were evil...

Life in a history textbook tells us a disney version of history... and of course, the mutually amicable relationship culminated in thanksgiving!!! right?

They don't tell you that the original "pilgrims" resorted to cannibalism... They dug up indian graves and ate the recently deceased for food... And there were plenty of graves, as the indians were already dying of european diseases...

There wasn't the orgy of elation the textbooks show us...

[boycotteverything]

I'm just trying to say that the indians had every reason to believe we were evil... and they were right.

[pack3tg0st]

I'm just trying to say that the indians had every reason to believe we were evil... and they were right.

The State of Alaska has the right idea...

During my time in Alaska I was pretty amazed at how well the state takes care of their native population...

[boycotteverything]

During my time in Alaska I was pretty amazed at how well the state takes care of their native population...have they considered giving it back to the rightful owners?

[mojo]

During my time in Alaska I was pretty amazed at how well the state takes care of their native population...have they considered giving it back to the rightful owners?

if we started giving land back to the original owners of most countries on earth, even some of the "generally accepted indigineous populations" would have to move out.
how far back do you go in time to decide the original owners?

[pack3tg0st]

Alaska is so huge that they never took much from the rightful owners to begin with...

[boycotteverything]

how far back do you go in time to decide the original owners?January 26, 1788 of course. I thought everyone knew that.

[torbjon]

Cog: Jensen, Tims, and Day were / are original Utah Mormon pioneers:

http://www.xmission.com/~nelsonb/pioneer_search3.htm

type any of those surnames into the search box, them folk be my kith and kin.

Not a real slam or anything, but c'mon dude, maybe look before you leap, ey? Googling "mormon surnames" prolly woulda answered yer question a 'ell of a lot faster than waitin' fer me to reply, ya know?

for the record, if a topic don't stay in the "recent topics" or "recent posts" list at the top of the page, chances are I ain't gonna look for it or revisit it later... soooo, best not to wait around for this ol' bozoboy.

Pack:

I was in the South East part of Alaska, tribes there were Tlingit and Haida. I never noticed "The State" "taking care of" the natives. All I ever noticed was that "the State", and more importantly, "the Fed" pretty much just left them alone to do their thing. They could hunt and fish whatever whenever, endangered or not, in season or out, that was kinda cool. Only way to get "legal" eagle feathers was from a native, which I always thought was kinda stupid... all birds Molt every year (loose alla their feathers and grow new ones) so there's eagle feathers laying on the ground all over the place... whitey pick one up offa the ground, federal offense, big fine, jail time. Native pick one up and hand it to you? All cool *rolls eyes* how whack is that? *laughs*

They were given land to call their own, but none of the natives I knew and worked with really dug on that concept of "ownership" of land... we're just passin' through this life and this land was the basic concept I got from them... use it but don't abuse it kind of thing....... So that "rightful owners" line just don't sit well with my experiences... folks didn't really "take away" a possesion that they "owned"... what folks did was just sorta Stop 'em from "passing through"...

Russian and Norwegian commercial fishing did a REAL number on them... natives had real sophisticated hunting / fishing techniques, they made good nets and good boats and alla that, but the whole concept of stretching a gill net across the mouth of a river and harvesting ALL of the fish that returned to that river to spawn NEVER crossed their inbred cultish whacked out state of mind... almost as bad as them mormons... remember the mormons? ya, the OP was about the mormons... and here I be chattin' fish *laughs*

OP's are a waste of time and space anyway... about like them mormons... the freeks.

Did I mention that the mormons are a buncha freeks?

Ya, I can say that, they be my kin... you all are just a buncha bashers... non mormon mormon bashers... bashers are freeks too, like the mormons, the freeks.

we're all bozos on this bus. No one is clean.

'cept Nola, she just had a bath.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Did someone mention Bozo?

Watch what you be sayin' 'bout my kin.... :clown:

[torbjon]

I met Bozo The Clown when I was a kid. He called me a "bozoboy". I wore the title Proudly for a while, took some shit from the kids as I grew a bit older, then re-embraced the title as I grew older and decided I really don't give a rats ass what the other kids say or think....

so, perhaps I'm not a bozo by birth, but I was bequeathed the title by the official guy....

kinda like being Knighted,... only better. *shrugs*

(sorry 'bout yer kin... curious if a "bad hair day" equates to "nice looking hair")

[Kacen]

http://custer.over-blog.com/article-11602057.html

[Cogburn]

LOL torb I did try to Google those names directly and got bubkis.

Context is always a good thing, thanks!

[torbjon]

Cog:

bubkis? more like overkill, yes? Those are pretty common names, out of context they generate a bazillion search results...

but ya, lookin' at the names In Context (as related to the OP) it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a few of me forefathers partook in said "massacre"

and you know what?

that doesn't bother me one bit.

Go back a few more generations and me family tree turns into almost 100% Norwegian back to Erik and Lief and before... my kin got a looong history of "massacring" and raping and pillaging and looting and alla that fun kind of stuff... as does everybody elses kin if you trace if far enough. *shrugs*

so what?

So ya, I come from a long line of bloody inbred cultish morons *yawns*

at least My peoples found the "new world" looong before that Chris guy.

the gig with the OP is that there seems to be this generally accepted (though entirely inaccurate) concept that as soon as those numbnuts signed the declaration of independence we all of a sudden became one big happy united family or some such... And I can't find anything to really Support that thought. Prior to the civil war we were at best a "union" composed of rival states that Hated each other. After the civil war things just got worse. I mean, Honestly? The south has every right to pissed off by that. They WANTED OUT, they got their ass kicked, and became a conquered peoples, forced to cowtow to the whims of a far off dictatator... sounds like a broken record, right?

This oh so happy and unified 'nation' was so fucked up that folks were fleeing westward in droves... partly to make a buck, but partly to get away from the Bull Shit.

As near as I can tell, things haven't gotten much better... only now there is no more "westward" to flee to *sighs* (I'm more than a little bum bout that... gimme a frontier to run to and I'm OUTTA here baby, faster than you could say 'Bowie Knife".

[GeneralStriker]

Damn- I came to love the Mormons after living among them for a year in Sandy. I watched a family with about 20 kids build a huge house in about two weeks. Old men in bee-keeper regalia wandering around. Young jacks hanging in clubs in Orem and Provo contemplating life. They struggle like we all struggle. What's not love?

[torbjon]

What's not to love?

well, I'm not too wild about 'em following me around, pounding on me door, askin' me to join the church (and pay my tithe).. that's right up there with telemarketing. *shudders* I hate that shit.

In general though, ya, I got no problems with them or anyone else. Folks can do whatever the 'ell they want, just leave me out of it.

Start fucking with me or my kid, and I'll fuck you back *shrugs* Tha's how it Should be, yes?

[GeneralStriker]

well, I'm not too wild about 'em following me around, pounding on me door, askin' me to join the church (and pay my tithe)been there too. but what difference does it make? it never bothered me. not to mention that the Choir was always free.

[mojo]

at least My peoples found the "new world" looong before that Chris guy.



and most probably just after some norwegian dudes, after some phoenician guys, who found it not long after some sumerian dudes, who may have found it not long after some polynesian dudes who probably found it after some other bunch of dudes who.........ummmm...who's place is it anyway?
not the clovis dudes thats for sure.

[GeneralStriker]

.who's place is it anyway?Xenu's?

[torbjon]

BE/GS:

I just don't like to be interrupted by people pushing products I'm not interested in, tha's all...

Mojo:

Exactly.

"LIFE" found "this place" first, and "this place" is "owned" by the "life" that occupies it... until it dies.... then some other "life" will occupy it. I don't put humans anywhere near the top of the "life chain". There's nothing special about us.

And possession IS ownership.

My landlord my like to Think they "own" this space I am in Possession of, but it's MINE to do whatever the hell I want to do with until some power greater than me Forces me to do otherwise, right?

seriously, the argument "gee no officer, that bag of contraband in my pocket is not mine" just doesn't fly, right?

[GeneralStriker]

yeah. our little lives are suffused with exotic liens. fuckit. jes' passin' through, marse.

[Cogburn]

Ownership is theft.

[boycotteverything]

nah- it's consecrated theft.