Evolutiuon towards peace and veganism?

[theeindiee]

A follow up to my last posts on the topic of "When the war is over... got to start again":

I touched a bit on the subject of whether humans, while evolving towards becoming peaceful creature, are evolving also towards becoming vegetarian/vegan as well.

I would like to expand upon these two issues in a more symbiotic way, because I believe that they are both part of the same mental evolution towards compassion/empathy towards all sentient beings.

I still eat meat... mostly because I live in a household full of basically only meat derived food. I have looked into the cost of going vegetarian while in this area, and the simple fact of the matter is that it is almost impossible to affordably abstain from meat or meat derived food. Meat makes me sick, but I eat it because it's shoved in my face all of the time and I have basically given up the fight while being here. It makes me feel very guilty. I tried using the excuse that it was wasteful to allow the dead to go to waste, but I still feel extremely sad and that excuse does not work for me anymore.

I keep asking myself a simple question, which I think most people avoid asking simply because it is not necessary for them to stare an animal they are going to eat in the face beforehand. That question is this: Could I kill an animal and eat it?

Is there any REAL difference between my dog and a cow? Could I kill my dog and eat her? Could I kill my neighbor and eat him? What's the difference?

What would most of the developed world do if, tomorrow, the big industry slaughterfarms shut down and they were forced to go out and directly face the living being they would normally only see the dead flesh of?

What would even the avid hunter do if he had no gun or sophisticated bow and arrow to kill the animal with the least amount of eye contact or physical struggle possible? What if he had to physically subdue an animal while it looked him in the eye and cried out in pain as its throat was slit?

I guess this is more about the legitimacy of humans killing animals for food than it is about humans killing humans... but when you think about it, a sentient being is a sentient being regardless of its physical makeup. We all suffer the same pain, both physically and mentally. It is still war, at its root. It is still torture and genocide and slavery. As a matter of fact, It is much much worse, because we willfuly ignore their suffering at our hands simply because of their appearance of not being like us. We eat them because we have been trained to become emotionally detatched from them, viewing them as nothing more than animated food with zero awareness of its existence. So wrong that is! Haven't you ever looked into an animal's eyes and felt its awareness? Haven't you ever felt like a helpless animal sometimes in the face of some behemoth thing without a conscience? Haven't you ever felt empathy and an awareness of an animal's suffering?

Why are we better than the beings we kill and cannibalize? I say cannibalize because I believe they are as aware as we are, and they are as intelligent as we are, just in ways which we have forgotten to recognize. They are the different races of BEINGS alongside us, another different race of BEINGS, who all EXIST and who all wish for a life without pain. This is why we should not separate ourselves from them, because in reality, we are with them, and as the only beings on Earth who are capable of knowing better, it is our job to protect them and make sure they suffer as little as possible. This is what I feel in my heart, and it really really hurts to see the way us humans have lost our feelings for these other beings we barely even bat an eye at.

I feel like this is even more genuine because I was never influenced by ANYone to think this way. Matter of fact, I came from a point of awareness similar to most of the rest of Western Society... that animals were just here for us to use as we saw fit. The more I shed the illusions of this lie, the more aware of all the little furry versions of myself running around out there I become. Nobody can tell me that I am wrong, not even my own convenient ego which has fostered my ignorance for too long.

This is a completely unfair war against nature we are waging. We are not the rulers of this planet. We are the fellow beings evolving on this planet, and now that we know better, we must protect it and every single sentient creature on it... even the nasty creepy crawly ones.

I feel that knowingly killing any creatures on this Earth is the equivalent of cold blooded murder of another human being.... and will be universally rewarded as such.

I'm feel extreme sorrow for all of my ignorance and I hope that I can become a positive force for the awakening of all the rest of humanity to this world in which we are causing to suffer so harshly. It is a large burden on my conscience, and One Love means not just a love for humanity, but a love for EVERY One individual being in existence.

Ask the Buddhists... there's millions and millions of them. Seeking the release of all sentient beings from suffering is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, and it is my favorite philosophical/spiritual practice in existence today. Possibly no other "Ism" comes closer to the Truth. So sad that it must have a label and an image....

[Bitchkoma]

What would even the avid hunter do if he had no gun or sophisticated bow and arrow to kill the animal with the least amount of eye contact or physical struggle possible? What if he had to physically subdue an animal while it looked him in the eye and cried out in pain as its throat was slit?[..] As a matter of fact, It is much much worse, because we willfuly ignore their suffering at our hands simply because of their appearance of not being like us. We eat them because we have been trained to become emotionally detatched from them, viewing them as nothing more than animated food with zero awareness of its existence.

Maybe in modern societies where meat comes from what basically amounts to meat factories. I challenge you to say the same thing about Inuits or the Masai tribesman. Also, you should check out the Kalahari bushmen. They don't even use bow and arrows. Their strategy is to simply chase down the prey until it's just too exhausted. Then they approach the exhausted animal, say a prayer to the spirit of that animal and slit it's carotid. See: persistance hunting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting).

Also, who say's plants aren't aware? The have a sort of awareness that's not quite like that of animals, but they are definitely aware if they are under attack from pests or if there is a forest fire. Stress hormones get released. You might say that's just a reaction to so-and-so stimulant, but I ask, what's the difference from an animal's reaction to being chased down by a predator? Both are reactions designed to lead to better survivability.

Extra reading:
Study shows 'plant communication' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cambridgeshire/7809506.stm)
Clever plants chat over their own network (http://www.physorg.com/news109944832.html)

I find this "we shouldn't eat animals because they are sentient and aware" argument to be extremely retarded. Obviously whoever first came up with that to promote vegetarian diets have never had a garden or grown a plant from a little seed until it becomes a mighty tree.

Finally, I have to say that I completely disagree with your speculation that eating an all-plant diet will make us more peaceful. Look at fucking hippos. They eat mostly plants, but they're fucking nasty. And what about bulls having headbutt competitions? It can get pretty bloody. I doubt very much the use of force is correlated to how much meat in one's diet. I think it has more to do with the amount of testosterone produce by one's balls.

[theeindiee]

It's a feeling I get. It's amazing because I'm not the only one who's come to this conclusion, let alone on their own. It's the basis for a whole religion (Buddhism), and several other large sects of other religions.

If you don't have to eat meat, then WHY do it?

Plants grow their fruits to be eaten! That's the way they evenly distribute their seed.

[theeindiee]

You have to come to your own conclusion about this, man. I'm not gunna tell you why you shouldn't eat meat. It's a personal realization, and either you get it or you don't. I am interested in why people who disagree, though, are always so spiteful in the tone of their responses, though.

I could tell you why this and why that til the cows come home, but it does no good to try communicating the reasons why to someone who's already found 1000 excuses as to why any opposing viewpoint is bullshit. Off course, the majority of society supports your views. You have that going for you. Where it goes, though, is a bit questionable... in the end.

[Bitchkoma]

You lack the courage of your convictions then.

I have no problems with people wanting to go vegetarian. I myself enjoy vegetarian food greatly but I've got a condition that makes it impossible to go on a strict vegetarian diet without B12 supplements. And to the people who want to extol the virtues of a vegetarian diet from a health and fitness standpoint, I will listen.

But bring in some pseudo-morality mumbo-jumbo and my bullshit meter just goes off.


Plants grow their fruits to be eaten! That's the way they evenly distribute their seed.

And their leaves? What about their roots? What about the seeds themselves? What do you think cereals grains are?

[boycotteverything]

Finally, I have to say that I completely disagree with your speculation that eating an all-plant diet will make us more peaceful.Hitler was a vegetarian. nuff said.

[Foxtrot Oscar]

Meat is murder.

Tasty Tasty Murder.

:twisted:

Hey, theeindie, is your dog a beagle?

Fox

[boycotteverything]

Too late (as usual). He already ate his dog.

Oh- and isn't great to have Hitler to schlep out of hell every now and then to serve as an exclamation point on the end of a comment? We'd be lost without that guy. What a show stopper!

[mojo]

That question is this: Could I kill an animal and eat it?


What would most of the developed world do if, tomorrow, the big industry slaughterfarms shut down and they were forced to go out and directly face the living being they would normally only see the dead flesh of?



most of us could, we have done so for many thousands of years up until only a very short time ago. those that couldnt do it will die, the population will reduce and us omnivores will be much better off.


Why are we better than the beings we kill and cannibalize?


because we are able to.
do you seriously think a starving lion coming across you on the serengeti would pass you by, do you think it would feel empathy for you, do you think it would not attack and eat you because it did not want to hear your plaintive cries?

but, each to their own, for those that are or wish to be vegetarian i say good on you, however do not force your views upon the rest of us that prefer to be omnivorous.

what does really annoy me about most vegans and vegetarians is their constant belittling or admonition of people who have lived off the land for many generations, many of those people have a better understanding of animal welfare than any vegetarian i ever met.

[boycotteverything]

do you seriously think a starving lion coming across you on the serengeti would pass you by, do you think it would feel empathy for you, do you think it would not attack and eat you because it did not want to hear your plaintive cries?fuck, man- they'd take a pass. the kid's way too bony.

[Ducky]

what does really annoy me about most vegans and vegetarians is their constant belittling or admonition of people who have lived off the land for many generations, many of those people have a better understanding of animal welfare than any vegetarian i ever met.

That bugs the piss out of me too. Some of them are a bunch of bible thumpers when they go about preaching their convictions. I'm not saying that WHAT they are saying is wrong, but HOW they go about saying their spiel.

Though, I do agree with what vegens say on how we treat our livestock. In some cases it's downright disgusting - regarding their living conditions - as well as how we 'humanely' kill our food supply.

In any event...

Another thought just came to mind right now.

IF we all of a sudden just stopped eating meat and converted to total vegen, what would we do with the animals already in our care?

Keep caring for and feeding them? That would be a LOT of good monies going for nought.

I can't see us turning them loose. They've become accustomed to what we've already provided for them. Though nature will undoubtedly kick in, and they'll find a way to survive. However, look at the streets being overrun with chattel in countries like India. What a mess

[boycotteverything]

IF we all of a sudden just stopped eating meat and converted to total vegen, what would we do with the animals already in our care?one last humongous barbecue?

[torbjon]

it takes Life to make Life. Period. For something to live, something else Must Die. To say that "plants are cool with this" is pretty whack. I feel what people are really saying is "plants don't shed tears that I can see, or make cries that I can hear, therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to brutally murder the thing and devour it." I feel this way because many of the tree hugging V people seem to think that the consumption of seafood is "okay"... for some reason those animals "don't count".

But even the 100% V people, who only consume plant products, are missing the point (made earlier) and that is this:

RESPECT.

Placing more value on the life of a Spotted Owl than on the life of a Soy Bean is beyond whack, that just makes one a Nazi. To say that it is "okay" to kill a race of lifeforms based simply upon their racial and genetic characteristics is whack.

It's never cool to kill, with one exception: It takes Life to make Life. So, who's it gonna be? You or Me?

[mojo]

ME!


:)

[torbjon]

mojo:

are you volunteering for the stew pot? 'cause I'm Not.

I can imagine sacrificing myself in order to prolong my daughters life... but my uncles life? my cousins life? your life?

nawww.

there's not enough of a genetic bond there to compel me to give up the ghost.

[mojo]

haha..no im not volunteering, i'm pretty sure i'd poison anyone wanting to eat my flesh, or at the very least have 'em tripping pretty hard.

[boycotteverything]

Become an Airatarian. No harm, no foul. But you hafta get used to drinking your own piss.

[Cogburn]

Why do people feel guilty for eating other living things? It is our nature and our design.

War and guilt are side effects from over thinking our position in the universe.

The curse of sentience.

[boycotteverything]

The curse of sentience.The curse of sentience is Imagination. As Einstein said, "Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds." Thus the hemlock cocktail served with delight at a local barroom near us.

[theeindiee]

Okay... there are some common sense things about plants to consider. The FRUITS and even the LEAVES, not as much the roots and the stems, have the uncanny ability to easily be picked off the tree. The fruits and many leaves are made...by nature.... to be eaten by animals in order to further the plant's propagation. Trimming the leaves by eating them makes the leaves which grow back the next time FULLER, therefore benefitting the plant's overall ability to absorb sunlight and create clorophyll. The fruit is eaten, and the seeds from the fruit are spread when waste is expelled from the animal whose eaten the fruit. The plant does not die. The fruits and the leaves regrow. No harm done.

Now... as to whether it is wrong to kill an animal.... I don't think that ignorance of their suffering based on conditioning counts.

As for BK and his b12, he brings up a very good point... it could very well be that generations after generations of meat eating has weakened the natural levels of b12 within our bodies.... and I get this feeling that when people use the argument that it is dangerous to your health NOT to eat meat, they don't consider the implications that meat eating has had on the genetics of the species. I wonder if BK were a persistent vegetarian for long enough, whether or not his b12 deficiency would naturally stabilize at some point. It seems like lots of people feel weak at first when the begin a vegetarian diet, but one of my friends said that it naturally corrected itself as time went on.

I have this feeling that at a certain time, we were not meat eaters. We had already evolved into herbivores because of the mental empathy we have for animals, which is natural! Doesn't that go against the meat eater's nature if (s)he's too busy empathizing with its prey to kill and eat?

People are preching veganism with vigor now more than ever because of the state of the world in which we've evolved systematic slaughter and brutal slavery of millions of animals a day just to satisfy our "desire" to eat meat. You SHOULD feel guilty about that, because it's everyone's responsibility to stop it.

It is simple. If you have enough empathy not to kill your neighbor and eat him, there are a bunch of other furry, flappy, rollypolly, and crawly neighbors out there which you should avoid killing if you can because THEY are as much here to experience their full lives and to think and wonder and grow as you are.

I've been harassed by vegans, too... before I thought this way.... and lemme tell you, the only reason I thought they were too preachy is because I didn't wanna hear it. I liked my cooked and seasoned dead flesh too much. I liked being stubborn.

There's another interesting thing. If it was "natural" for us to eat meat... why do most of us have to process it so much before we eat it?

There's more to our nature than just our physical habits. Our mental state affects our nature, and I am willing to bet that mojo is dead wrong that most people could kill to eat nowadays. If it all went south tomorrow, anyone who wanted to eat meat would probably designate certain people willing enough to go kill it to get their dead meat for them because they'd be too squirmish to do it themselves. I am very disturbed by killing animals... just as much so as killing humans. Humans are animals. If you wanna eat meat, try killing a human for meat. You're though of as a psycho and thrown into prison or lynched. Imagine if we were humble in our relation to animals. I would not feel so bad about it if we allowed natural predators the equal opportunity to hunt us as we do them.

Then, of course... there is the evolution of the mind and expansion of our ability to have compassion towards every other animal, and not just ourselves.

It's an issue of compassion... and I don't need evidence to support that. You are encouraged to go out and look at a cow in the eye and find the evidence of compassion within your own self.

Great compassion requires sacrifice these days. The Tibetan Monks being tortured and killed by Chinese Authorities are willing to die for their compassion. It is SO important to them, that they would rather die than kill. They base their "beliefs" on their awareness of more than just "survival". Survival is also a belief. The belief that you must survive at all costs is a belief that comes from a state of ignorance.

[boycotteverything]

I've been harassed by vegansthat's all we need to know. And yet there is more bullshit spewed:
I feel that knowingly killing any creatures on this Earth is the equivalent of cold blooded murder

Oh my!

[pack3tg0st]

There are a number of popular myths about vegetarianism that have no scientific basis in fact. One of these myths is that man is naturally a vegetarian because our bodies resemble plant eaters, not carnivores. In fact we are omnivores, capable of either eating meat or plant foods. The following addresses the unscientific theory of man being only a plant eater.

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

[boycotteverything]

Eat what you want and quit yer bitching.

[theeindiee]

Eat what you want and quit yer bitching.

Well... it was BOUND to be brought up sooner or later! Heh.

I'm not bitching at all, just putting my thoughts out there. Can I do that? Or is science going to kill me for it? Ha!

As for being unscientific, I am definitely that. All too trusting in science to tell us who and what to be....

It is kind of a shame that science has created such malleable and apathetic drones.

Not calling anyone a drone or anything... just a general sweeping observation which you will probably take personally.

[boycotteverything]

i've been a vegetarian for fourty years and i still say this- eat what you fucking want and quit yer fucking bitching.

[pack3tg0st]

When we're talking nutrition and diet, science comes into play pretty heavily...

Science doesn't tell us what to eat... it tells us what our bodies need, and what we're adapted for...

You can eat dirt all day, but science shows that it has no nutritional value, and you will die from malnutrition in the long run...

[boycotteverything]

i've been a vegetarian for fourty years and i still say this- eat what you fucking want and quit yer fucking bitching.

[theeindiee]

I think using common sense would avoid the problem of eating dirt all day.

[pack3tg0st]

Maybe...

But becoming a vegan isn't common sense... it's personal preference...

I'm not knocking it, if it works for whomever, more power to 'em... but it does drive me nuts when they try to scientifically rationalize why they've become vegans...

someone might have an affinity towards eating dirt... and if they do, than so be it... but trying to scientifically rationalize why they are "dirt eaters" is obscene...

[boycotteverything]

I think using common sense would avoid the problem of eating dirt all day.everything is ultimately dirt.

[theeindiee]

BE.... you know what I meant.

Listen... I'm not telling anyone how to live right now. I'm saying that it is a trend of consciousness evolving, not a trend of preference or a lifestyle choice. It's not like "wear a white suit or wear a black suit? Live in a ranch style house or live in a mansion?". I would have probably preferred to say fuck all vegans because of the same stuff you guys are saying... but something has changed. It is not really a choice once you realize something profound within yourself to go a certain way. You just naturally begin to change because your awareness pushes you there. IT evolves you in line with something profound... which if you haven't "gotten it" yet, ya know it's not your fault. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just completely dissatisfied with sources proclaiming that eating meat is natural, when obviously if it was natural... it would be an unavoidable inherent behavior in all of us. We would see an animal and want to kill and eat it... but most of us don't view animals that way. If you do... well shit, I can't change that. I'm just suggesting that it may actually not be your nature as much as you think. I don't care if a lie has been told for 50,000 years and believed. It's still a lie. It's your choice to believe whatever you believe.

For most vegetarians and vegans I've met, their awareness of sufferring of beings other than their own rather unimportant species is what pushed them to reject animal carcass as food. It's not ignorance to care for living things and to not destroy them. It's awareness of their being.

It's really odd actually... because as this awareness within me comes more and more into being, I'm finding that eating meat tastes more and more like shit. I can literally taste the death of the animal involved.

[apeci]

I myself enjoy vegetarian food greatly but I've got a condition that makes it impossible to go on a strict vegetarian diet without B12 supplements.
Condition? You mean being human?

[Cogburn]

It's really odd actually... because as this awareness within me comes more and more into being, I'm finding that eating meat tastes more and more like shit. I can literally taste the death of the animal involved.
But not yet the plant?

It is that death for which you should dedicate a moment of silence before you eat.

"Thank you Mr. Brocoli and Mr. Pig for sacrificing your life to nourish my body. I will not allow your deaths to be worthless by living my life to its fullest every moment I am alive."

Why do you think processed food isn't as healthy as whole food?

It has no soul.

[mojo]

Great compassion requires sacrifice these days. The Tibetan Monks being tortured and killed by Chinese Authorities are willing to die for their compassion. It is SO important to them, that they would rather die than kill. They base their "beliefs" on their awareness of more than just "survival". Survival is also a belief. The belief that you must survive at all costs is a belief that comes from a state of ignorance.

hate to be the bearer of bad news but there is ample evidence of monks "killing" throughout history. whether tibetan, buddhist or other.

[theeindiee]

Good. You win. Enjoy.

[torbjon]

theeindiee:

lemme guess:

you've spent your entire life in an AMERICAN URBAN SETTING, haven't you?

You are preaching a philosophy that only an incredibly Small percentage of the worlds population can adhere to.

You're saying that these people should eat Fruit:
http://www.elvincountry.com/travel-images/21510681.jpg

You're saying that this kid should eat Seeds and wrap Leaves around her body to keep warm:
http://www.alaska-in-pictures.com/data/media/21/cute-eskimo-girl_3485.jpg

ya, fuck them and their culture, they don't really count as "people" anyway, right? the freeks.

of course, the people who live here should really be eating those scrubby little thorn infested bushes, and Not the tasty, succulent, oh so precious little Bambi's in the background:
http://www.torbtown.com/maro0633.jpg

I'm sure the Salad Bar is THE place to hang out for the folks who live here:
http://www.angio.net/~reagan/images/pa-wasteland.jpg

I lived in this barn for two years.
http://www.torbtown.com/media/old/pasture2.jpg
Note my neighbors. I watched them be born. I raised them. Fed them. Cared for them. Named them. (Henry was the bull, red, profile, Josephine was the black one, Henrietta is next to her, looking into the camera, her daughter Bridgette is grazing next to her, etc.)

I slit their throats with my bare hands, cut them up into little bitty pieces, and ATE them.

Those critters were some of the best fucking Food I've ever had

YES, slaughter house SHIT tastes like slaughter house SHIT.

Guess What?

Industrial farm SHIT tastes like industrial farm SHIT, too.

So, do yourself, and the rest of us, a favor, and clarify your argument / philosophy a bit more, 'kay?

'cause all I'm seeing right now is "don't eat canned spam, eat canned corn instead, it's more betterful"

bah.

[Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Life feeds on life.

[mojo]

Good. You win. Enjoy.

its not about winning anything indiee, just a statement of fact.


The Epicurean Monk.

[offsite:25lxd4vs]Emperor Wu of China asked Bodhidharma: "What is the most holy principle of Buddhism?"
Bodhidharma responded: "There is no holiness, only great emptiness."[/offsite:25lxd4vs]


[offsite:25lxd4vs]Buddhism is frequently placed, and particularly by socialists, in the category of warm-and-fuzzy-sentiments, mostly due to mistaking Buddhist attitudes of non-violence for pacifism.
'Non-violence' in a Buddhist context is I think correctly interpreted as 'try to do no harm,' which does not discount a necessary violence or choosing 'the lesser evil.' Reality does not fit an ideal, often it is not possible to avoid using violence without causing a much greater harm.[/offsite:25lxd4vs]

here's another good book for anyone interested.

dont have a link sorry, you should be able to find it in your local library.

The Teeth and Claws of the Buddha: Monastic Warriors and S?hei in Japanese History. By Mikael S. Adolphson.

the point is indiee that no matter what belief system, caste, race, sex etc etc violence has had its place, nothing throughout history has gone untouched by the red hand, even the most peaceful of men have dealt or participated in violence either willingly or unwillingly imho.

[Cogburn]

Glad someone brought up Shaolin.

Oddly enough, pack and I discovered we study two veins of the same martial art, aikido.

Ai-Ki-Do = The Way of Harmonious Energy

The Martial Art of Non-Violence

[google:2wtzvokr]3200145913123453079[/google:2wtzvokr]

There are peaceful ways of dealing with the mean, the evil and the stupid.

[mojo]

have you read the "Teeth and Claws of the Buddha" cog, its a really well written book, very informative.

[torbjon]

Honestly Express Yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orA2iCkEpI
s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orA2iCkEpIs]

[Bitchkoma]

I myself enjoy vegetarian food greatly but I've got a condition that makes it impossible to go on a strict vegetarian diet without B12 supplements.
Condition? You mean being human?

Turns out I've got a bit of a gluten intolerance. Kind of amplifies the lack of B12 in the diet, giving me 3 months before I pass out from low BP instead of 6 months. Such a shame. My favourite grains are high in gluten.

Thankfully, I'm an omnivore and I've got other choices. I certainly would not want any human to evolve to have no choice. If that were to happen, our race is doomed like those useless Pandas or Koalas. Endangered, because they're just too specialized in their diet. Really, when you get right down to it.