When the War is over...got to start again.

[mojo]

During a discussion about war with indiee in chat i started thinking about it's place within nature and our evolution as a species.
If we look at the animal kingdom for guidance i think we can get a glimpse of why i believe "war" is a construct of nature and a natural "hardwired' neurological process.
Find me a creature within the animal kingdom that at some time does not engage in war against members of its own species or members of other species, invariably due to a struggle over resources.
It's my contention that since we started walking upright, and no doubt whilst still swinging from tree's, that we have always engaged in "war" or "tribal conflict" either within or without our species.
"War" is not something that has only appeared within the short time that we have been a "civilised" species, it's been an important part of our evolution and development as the dominant species on this planet, and i suggest it is an integral part to ensuring our continued technoligical and emotional advancement as a species.
Without war, there can be no pruning of the weak or stupid, the basis of "survival of the fittest" cannot ensure our survival in this technological era without it.
The "nanny state" attempts to dilute our further evolution, war, as long as eugenics is bastardized, is the only filter we have left.

War is a natural, hardwired, component of our collective psyche.

30,000 to 80,000 years ago we were at war with not only other human tribes but with other species as well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30870318/

Sometime between 28,000 and 30,000 years ago, an anatomically modern human in what is now France may have eaten a Neanderthal child and made a necklace out of its teeth, according to a new study that suggests Europe's first humans had a violent relationship with their muscular, big-headed hominid ancestors.

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050209_warfrm.htm

In 1998, researchers in Uganda saw a group of male chimpanzees beating on and swaggering around another male chimp’s freshly killed body. Its windpipe, fingernails and testicles were torn out.The finding added to a growing number of documented incidents of chimpanzees ganging up on, hunting down and killing each other—activities in which some researchers find eerie parallels to human war. These scientists argue that the killings among chimps, our closest ape relatives, may offer clues to war’s evolutionary origins, lessons that could help us break our own violent habits.

Chimps live in groups called communities. Most reported violence occurs when chimps wander near or into the territory of a neighboring chimp community. If they come across a chimp from that community who is alone, they may attack.

Watts declares the incidents back up a proposal that war is rooted in evolution. This view, called the imbalance of power hypothesis, holds that animals that conduct mutual group violence do so because it helps them win resources and territory. This in turn lets them survive longer and breed more—and all living species, evolutionary theory holds, descend from those that were able best do those things in the past.

1.9 - 1.4 million years ago.

H. ergaster is sometimes categorized as a subspecies of Homo erectus. H. erectus and Homo heidelbergensis are probably the migratory descendants of H. ergaster. H. ergaster may be distinguished from H. erectus by its thinner skull bones and lack of an obvious supraorbital sulcus. Derived features separating it from earlier species include reduced sexual dimorphism; a smaller, more orthognathic (flat) face; a smaller dental arcade; and a larger (700 - 850 cm³) cranial capacity. It is estimated that H. ergaster stood at 1.9 metres (6.2 ft) tall. Remains have been found in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Kenya, and South Africa.
The most complete Homo ergaster skeleton known was discovered at Lake Turkana, Kenya, in 1984. Paleoanthropologists Richard Leakey, Kamoya Kimeu and Alan Walker dubbed the 1.6 million year old specimen as KNM-WT 15000 (nicknamed "Turkana Boy").
The type specimen of H. ergaster is KNM ER 992[2]; the species was named by Colin Groves and Vratislav Mazák in 1975.
The species name originates from the Greek ergaster meaning "Workman". This name was chosen due to the discovery of various tools such as hand-axes and cleavers near the skeletal remains of H. ergaster.

Any species that could make and use tools of this kind would undoubtably use such tools to engage in warfare against weaker members of the species or animals of another species to ensure the survival of the tribe or community.

The only thing that differentiates us from our ancient ancestors is the complexity of the tools we use to wage war.

In closing, "war" is an intrinsic evolutionary trait, not to be mistaken for modern (relative) values of civilization, it is not borne of ignorance, or racism, or political motivation, though it would seem to us now that is the only motivation. It is "hardwired" within ours and all other species, even the plant kingdom, where opposing species of plant are regularly vying/warring for resources and space.



And just because i love the song.

kLomJ2m3vI4

[Cheezit]

Nice thought mojo.

But, with all of our advancements are we still acting upon 'survival instincts', or have we evolved to a point that one can just say no to war?
Are humans waring with each other because we cann't help it or are we capable of controling ourselves?


War is a natural, hardwired, component of our collective psyche.
Is it really just as hardwired in us now as it was in the past. Can we as a species break the habit?

[mojo]

But, with all of our advancements are we still acting upon 'survival instincts', or have we evolved to a point that one can just say no to war?

I dont think we have any choice, mainly because we dont allow "our" weak links to be cast off anymore, by that i mean our ancestors would have disposed of the weak, crippled, mentally handicapped or old to ensure that the tribe remained strong and vibrant and that vital resources were shared amongst the strongest.
Now we look after the weak, crippled, mentally handicapped and old, there is no other "filter" in place to ensure "the survival of the fittest".
I'm not for a moment suggesting that we should euthanize the weak, crippled, mentally handicapped and old, just proposing a reason why war continues to be an intrinsic trait of our human nature.



Are humans waring with each other because we cann't help it or are we capable of controling ourselves?

Personally, i don't think we can control it, it's as natural a reaction as breathing.



War is a natural, hardwired, component of our collective psyche.
Is it really just as hardwired in us now as it was in the past. Can we as a species break the habit?

Perhaps we can break "the war instinct", however it's not a popular view due to the demonization of eugenics, which i believe is the doorway to our true potential.
As an example wait and see how many people accuse me of being a nazi for believing in eugenics.

[Foxtrot Oscar]

It's funny that reading your first post Mojo (all of it!).

The last line is as true now as when it was first said.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war"

I don't think it has as much to do with caring for the week and old, but much more to do with greed.

Fox

[mojo]

I don't think it has as much to do with caring for the week and old, but much more to do with greed.

Fox

it might now fox, but the day we climbed down out of the tree's it was the same then, if greed equates to owning the resources to ensure the survival of the tribe.

[Foxtrot Oscar]

There's a big difference in needing to live and wanting to "have more"

When we came out of the trees for a war the whole tribe would gain, now it's just a select few.

Sitting on piles of cash not giving a fuck about the live that are lost.

Very few people actually want to fight in a war and die. Some have no choice, but 1st world (if that even still stands) nations should be far beyond it. Schooling, education and jobs for all, but it's not so... There is always enough of the population just struggling by, that will make up a nice little collective for cannon fodder.

Fox

[boycotteverything]

our ancestors would have disposed of the weak, crippled, mentally handicapped or old to ensure that the tribe remained strong and vibrant and that vital resources were shared amongst the strongest.I'm not sure where this assumption comes from. But I do feel that altruism and compassion are as hardwired in us as war. And if war is a means of eliminating the weakest from society one would have to assume that soldiers represent the weakest among us- since they are the first to fall in any war.

[mojo]

I'm not sure where this assumption comes from.

mother nature.

[mojo]

]I'm not sure where this assumption comes from.

http://www.euvolution.com/articles/ancient.htm

[offsite:1iptawv0]The preface to a history of Eugenics may be compiled from barbarism, for the first Eugenist was not the Spartan legislator, but the primitive savage who killed his sickly child. The cosmic process was checked and superseded by another as ruthless as Nature's own method of elimination. The lower the community, the more rapidly it reproduces itself. There is an extravagant production of raw material, and the way of Nature, " red in tooth and claw," is the ruthless rejection of all that is superfluous. When there is no differential birth-rate, the result of foresight and self-control, and the attainment of a higher level of civilization, Nature adjusts the balance by means of a differential death-rate. In the days when human or animal foe threatened on every side, when " force and fraud were the two cardinal virtues," and the life of man was " solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short," natural selection must have been ruthless and severe. Some conception of the wasteful processes of Nature dawned upon the savage mind. While they lived their short lives, the weakly, the deformed, and the superfluous were a burden to the tribe. Human law, super seding natural law, strove to eliminate them at birth. This was the atavistic basis on which subsequent Eugenics was built. [/offsite:1iptawv0]

thats where the assumption comes from, amongst other resources, willing to provide them as well if you insist.

[boycotteverything]

would you then deny that compassion is also atavistic? we all choose how we inhale history. My source? Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard.http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/kierkegaard.html

[mojo]

would you then deny that compassion is also atavistic? we all choose how we inhale history.

i didn't even discuss compassion.....my OP was on the intrinsic nature of war in the human psyche.

If you want to discuss the evolutionary aspects of human compassion start a thread here or at hoaxmasters with a link and quote of yourself.

[boycotteverything]

i didn't even discuss compassion.....my OP was on the intrinsic nature of war in the human psyche.
our ancestors would have disposed of the weak, crippled, mentally handicapped or old to ensure that the tribe remained strongIt's relevant in as much as you've stated that evolution requires the disposal of the weakest. But is also true that evolution requires the care for the infirm. In fact that is why they are still with us.

[pack3tg0st]

Hrm... nice Post mojo!

I'm thinking that tribal conflict and territorial type "fights" are more our evolutionary style... and this war stuff, is a result of the development of the ego...

Most species fight... some in small groups vs other small groups... but our idea of war, with vast numbers of people in conflict seems a little unique to us... Perhaps "war" is nothing more than a "side-effect" from evolving an intellect, and likewise an ego...

Feel free to flame... once again, I find myself posting before my caffeine tank is filled...

drinkin' coffee... i'll get there...

[Ducky]

The human species has been hard-wired to include war faring tendencies.

Speaking of 'íntrinsic nature', the book Lord Of The Flies comes to mind.

Basically a microcosm within a macrocosm society.

The ending is synonomous with how we are leading our own lives today, in that we're going to need someone bigger and better than ourselves to clean up our acts.

If we haven't figured out how to do it within the last thousands to millions of years, how much longer will it take?

Really?

[boycotteverything]

If we haven't figured out how to do it within the last thousands to millions of yearsSome of us have.

[mojo]

but our idea of war, with vast numbers of people in conflict seems a little unique to us...

not in the animal kingdom......which is the place that our roots are sunk. Take ants for example.

[offsite:wn53b1aa]Ants form colonies that range in size from a few dozen predatory individuals living in small natural cavities to highly organised colonies which may occupy large territories and consist of millions of individuals. These larger colonies consist mostly of sterile wingless females forming castes of "workers", "soldiers", or other specialised groups.[/offsite:wn53b1aa]

why do ant colonies have soldiers?
or bee's?
why do chimpanzee communities have scouts and guards?
why do certain plant species attack and overwhelm other species?


Feel free to flame...

haha...no flame bro....the discourse is enough...your perspective is as relevent as mine.

[Ducky]

If we haven't figured out how to do it within the last thousands to millions of yearsSome of us have.

But we need to do this collectively or it's no go.


"Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it

[boycotteverything]

It all distills to overcoming the ants and chimps inside us.

http://api.ning.com/files/eNL*fHQV-PSgHvqXHfE54d8rIs2bTUffTHV3mm53NS7nU-I2IWdmmZ46bO9LGhoUs9y3MW774diopRRvFOEYg-5sq-5rywCW/hippies.jpg

[Ducky]

I don't think there is any species on earth that won't war with itself or others.

As I've said before, I think it's hard-wired within.

Even amoebas will attack other amoebas if a food supply is in shortage.

[boycotteverything]

[quote]If we haven't figured out how to do it within the last thousands to millions of yearsSome of us have.

But we need to do this collectively or it's no go.


"Those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it[/quote:18g67r6e]Unfortunately there is no collective remembrance- nor will there ever be. All redemption is personal. Is that not opportunity enough?

[Lexion]

The human species has been hard-wired to include war faring tendencies.

Speaking of 'íntrinsic nature', the book Lord Of The Flies comes to mind.

Basically a microcosm within a macrocosm society.

The ending is synonomous with how we are leading our own lives today, in that we're going to need someone bigger and better than ourselves to clean up our acts.

If we haven't figured out how to do it within the last thousands to millions of years, how much longer will it take?

Really?

Who is ghost-writing for Ducks ?

Is she on vacation ?

Wondering,
Lex

[boycotteverything]

Who is ghost-writing for Ducks ?Mojo, apparently.

[mojo]

Who is ghost-writing for Ducks ?Mojo, apparently.

at least she doesnt copy and paste response's/quotes from herself from another site.

and i'd be proud to accept that members of amkon challenge the way i think, i'm not so arrogant to think that i can't move slightly to the left or right to change my perspective.

fuck you BE, go and derail yourself at hoaxmasters.

[boycotteverything]

Listen and learn from the master. War is a paradigm, not a necessity.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0X9i7RXynpk/R1AZwJDc0mI/AAAAAAAAAIY/wTH2cBwRVe0/s1600-R/John&YokoWARisOver.jpg

[mojo]

:lol:


ohhh yeah...john lennon...what a fucking tosser.

give me a fucking break, the guy was a drugged out, thumbprinted moron who got cunt struck by a devious fucking bitch who wanted nothing more than money and notoriety.

yeah, i'm gonna live my life by the lessons he taught, over my and my families dead fucking bodies.

[boycotteverything]

hahahaha. ok. we all choose our mentors and messages. but i'll forever be a marxist lennonist, groucho and john.


give me a fucking break, the guy was a drugged out, thumbprinted moron Sounds like a monkey I know.

[mojo]

hahahaha. ok. we all choose our mentors and messages. but i'll forever be a marxist lennonist, groucho and john.

i'll take abbott and costello any fucking day.



give me a fucking break, the guy was a drugged out, thumbprinted moron Sounds like a monkey I know.

i dont deny it, except my missus isnt with me for money or notoriety.

[boycotteverything]

my missus isnt with me for money or notoriety.yeah but that's only because you have neither! hahahaha oh- and i admit that i'm a dissolute old git too. it's a decent club.

[mojo]

my missus isnt with me for money or notoriety.yeah but that's only because you have neither! hahahaha oh- and i admit that i'm a dissolute old git too. it's a decent club.

well i do have a certain notoriety, at least within the small tribe i mix with.

[boycotteverything]

well, of course. you're the reigning Prince of Amkon! my knee is suitably bent, my liege.

[mojo]

well, of course. you're the reigning Prince of Amkon! my knee is suitably bent, my liege.

hah..i was actually thinking of the desolate reprobates i mix with at my local...but now that you mention it.....

[pack3tg0st]

Whew, ok, back for round 2... with a cup o' joe in my system now...

Anyway, I consider a fight for survival different than "war" itself. Humans wage war typically for reasons other than survival. Tracts of land, oil, natural resources and a quest for validity come to mind... Most creatures in the animal kingdom engage in "Warfare" in a quest for survival... Man seems to be content with killing to satisfy their own egos...

This is why I consider "War" as we know it, not the nature of man as a beast, but the consequence of developing consciousness, and therefore, the ego...

Animals in nature don't typically try to kill each other to satisfy their vanity... IMHO ants and bees are an exception. If you reflect at other animals in nature, I'm sure you will find that most do not engage in this behavior... Most fauna will engage in conflict only when its a matter of survival... some won't even engage then... instead opting to adapt to the new survival pressure...

Man, for some reason is different...we refuse to adapt. We have a set way of doing things... and if something puts that way of doing things in jeopardy, we'll fight...

The more I reflect on Man, the more i'm convinced that we may actually be one of the least suited species on earth for survival... Given the choice between a sustainable survival and a comfortable existence, we'll opt for the latter...

We'd rather be comfortable than achieve any sort of equilibrium with the universe to ensure our continued existence...

[mojo]

i'll wait until i'm straight to answer pack.

:D

[boycotteverything]

The more I reflect on Man,holy shit, packman. spare us!

[boycotteverything]

i'll wait until i'm straight to answer pack.in other words- see ya in august.

[mojo]

them's fightin' word's......ohhh wait...that proves my point. :)

[theeindiee]

Here I come!

Okay... the problem with the whole "war is natural" argument is this. We are viewing this problem from a strictly materialistic point of view. Some choose to accept this because they've never seen any other way. They've never seen a reason NOT to fight for their lives.

It is my hypothesis that we are missing crucial details of what really happened in our past to make us this way. I've never met a single decent person who would kill their own child to ensure the well being of any tribe of any sort. I've never met a single decent person who thinks that illing the inept will make things any better in the world. I've never met a single decent person who wouldn't rather communicate in order to solve problems of things such as differing virtues and resources and other things. The people I have met who would do such things are ignorant of anything other than survival of this body. Survival of this body is NOT that important.

I risk saying too much, because I already know that you can find plenty of examples WHY humans prefer communication rather than violence on your own. There are so many examples out there, but for some reason, you choose to ignore them in favor of bringing up examples of ignorant beings who chose to be violent instead of communication.

There is a lot that you and I are not aware of with our past, and of course we may never know the real reasons why humans went so astray. I think the only evidence we truly need is the sages and great thinkers throughout history who have given us many many reasons why war is ignorant. These people are the reason why humans have evolved to this point. NOT the warriors. The warriors die in fruitless competition and in blind ignorance and obedience to leaders because they have not learned how to think for or lead themselves, and they are forever slaves to fear of death and social rejection. Tribal fighting has proven to be truly ignorant.... since one person from one tribe is really no different from another person from another tribe. The only thing which makes us war over resources and territory and value systems are beliefs that the tribe or the resource or the values are really that important.

Those who believe sex and resources and comfort are the only virtues in life may seem to always come out on top temporarily, but in the longrun, it is NOT "survival of the fittest" which fosters evolution. It is the persistence of the evenmore intrinsic nature of our desire for love, compassion, communication, and awareness, which has brought us to this point..... and it is now at this moment becoming cleare that the whole "my tribe VS your tribe" illusion is slowly becoming an antiquated thought process, and it is clear that this WILL NOT continue to support any evolution in the future.

I do agree that "War" and "tribalism" have been perhaps the yang to the ying of altruism for a while now... and has caused the few men who have thought beyond war and tribalism to go farther and farther beyond and has caused more and more people to become aware of True human nature... but we've reached a critical mass. War, tribalism, materialism, and general evil in man have brought us awareness in greater and greater numbers... and it is now at the point where the scale is tipping, and the only thing which has been holding the scale in favor of war and tribalism and materialism and general evil is a few things, which are actually in my opinion different facets of the same thing: language, nationalism, religion, politics, the economy, racial pride, culture, and social acceptance. In general, I guess you could call that society as a whole, or civilization. Our separation from true nature and our confusion caused by indoctrination from the time of our birth. We'll never be able to judge the world correctly unless we reject all the things we've come to passively accept over the years.... because they are ALL lies. We cannot look at the fossil records and at the history of culture and war and animal evolution and hope to learn the truth, because we have no REAL idea of what we are looking at. We may have a seemingly educated assumption, but that educated assumption is assumed through the eyes of confusion and ignorance.

The one truth which will end war, I can't tell you that. I can try, but because of language, I cannot give you the truth.

The only way to know why war is ignorant is to dig deep inside of yourself.... not books, not science facts and figures, not things dead and gone, NOTHING outside of yourself... your true self.... will give you the all encompassing answer to the problem of Life and how to Live it.

It's all in perception. If you percieve an atheistic and separated material existence with its labels and its fears and its misconceptions, you may not consciously be aware of this.... but you view everything and everyone as a potential enemy, and you will allign yourself with causes which are egotistical and materialistic and selfish. You will war with the entire world for survival because you are not aware that the world is not at war with you. The world just IS, and the only thing which makes you war with it is thinking that you are not in the same state as the world.... thinking that you are finite and inconsequencial toi the greater scheme of things. Conquoring anything materialistic is simply because we fear death. Animals fight for survival because they fear death, because they are in a state of ignorance JUST like we are.
People procreate in mass numbers and shun the "abominations" because of this fear. People fear death and separation simply because of ignorance of the Truth.

One simple thing. Until you know yourself, I'll never tell you the Truth. I'll tell you exactly what you want to hear in order to think that "you" are justified. Like that quote says, you'll think of me as foolish because you will think that I'm ignoring reality. You will think of me as weak because I choose not to seize the day and conquor all suffering. You will think of me as childish for not fitting in somehow along with "progress".

If you have something materialistic to gain from your version of the truth, in the end you gain nothing at all. War is ignorance and the interruption of communication by culture.

We are not destructors, we are creators. Creation doesn't constantly destroy and then rebuild. Creation ongoingly improves upon what is by going BEYOND what is.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to win an argument. I'm trying to motivate you you to introduce you to yourself by saying simply that there IS another way. You don't NEED to survive. You need to be, because you are a being. Surviving is doing without any awareness of being. Once you are TRULY aware, you will go beyond the body you occupy, and you will therefore transcend death and fear, and therefore.... survival becomes optional, not required.

There are those who have seen the truth and have been afraid of it. They've tried to rebel against it by trying to control it. Ignorance! It cannot be controlled or stagnated to a standstill by fear! War is the result of those who wish to control IT by controlling the bodies in which it inhabits. It also happens to inhabit their bodies as well. They are actually playing into the game, and in turn have been causing the Truth to be revealed through lies. War ends when Truth reaches critical mass, and we are now at that point. We will no longer be indivdiual animals scrounging around on rock trying to make ourselves. We will become one body working towards revelation of the Truth to the whole of existence, so that it may come into allignment with itself. This is the goal. Once THAT goal is acheived, things will get even more interesting, and some other yang will come along to continue the flow of things. Evil very well may end.... but there will be something else which will take its place. I can't imagine what it will be.

Until that time, just try and remember that...

"Culture is NOT your friend" - Terrence McKenna.

[GeneralStriker]

War is the weakness of the soul. I think you're saying that and I agree. We have our quota of chest thumping Rambos here. Noisy poseurs concealing their inner emptiness. These are our warriors.

[mojo]

We have our quota of chest thumping Rambos here. Noisy poseurs concealing their inner emptiness. These are our warriors.

I've got an idea, instead of insipid baiting attacks at the posters why not stretch your oh so wonderful intellect and frame a reply based on the premise of the OP.
Or are deliberate attacks upon the character of members the only tool at your disposal, something only "Noisy poseurs" ever respond with.


Pot.


Kettle.


I'll digest your and packs reply's indiee and get back to you later tonight. :)

[Cheezit]

Army chief: US able to fight NKorea if necessary
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_pentagon_nkorea

Looks like Americas ready for more.
I hope it doesn't come down to that though.

I'd like to think that people can grow beyond war. Maybe death is that only escape.?.?
War seems to have its purpose, but if war stays too long with a species it would likely halt that species' progress/further development.

A question for mojo: by war did you mean guns, swords and the battlefield only or conflict between two people, anger, rage and evil thoughts ect.

[mojo]

A question for mojo: by war did you mean guns, swords and the battlefield only or conflict between two people, anger, rage and evil thoughts ect.

i was thinking war only, not general violent acts.
i guess the premise was "groups" warring with each other for the control of resources, whether animal or vegetable, my hypothesis was that it is a natural phenomena.

[theeindiee]

The wars of today are entirely contrived, though. Wars of the pre-historic past may have been over territory and resources by groups of individuals who knew what was happening..... but this is war between basically giant multinational War Profiteers that aren't really "warring" as much as they are just setting up puppet governments and fighting them against each other to creat profit and control from fear and hate. The people have no clue as to actually what they are fighting for. They are just brainwashed into killing one another over basically a difference in fake ideals and Isms.

That North Korea thing is stupid. For one thing.... it just seems a little odd that North Korea would actually BE that stupid, considering they found a way to develop nuclear weapons (oh gee I wonder how? Did a little anonymous birdy sell them some plans and some used pinball machine parts?). So right away, the absolute nonsensical posturing from North Korea leads me to believe that North Korea is nothing but a puppet government with perhaps mentally unstable people knowingly placed into power by other anonymous little birdies.

Another thing which seems odd is that the US Gov't actually finds North Korea threatening.... since they are the ones creating these puppet gov'ts, they are the ones supplying nuclear technology under the table, they are the ones with the most nukes and the most advanced weaponry, yada yadsa yada..... and that topped with like 3 out of 5 of the top stories today were about war and diseases and fearmongering at it's highest.

But luckily "we may be near the end of the contrived consolidation of wealth and power AKA Recession". Oh yeah.... we might just stimulate some fearful growth with this war famine death and disease..... not to mention that it's all FAKE FUCKING HYPE all the time.

You wanna know why there's war, Mojo? Propaganda and brainwashing and control through fear and indoctrination from toddlerhood and ealier til death. Look at the news today. Doesn't make you wanna go out, buy some guns, stock up on some face masks and pharmacetical drugs to fight bleeding death viruses, and then buy a bunch of cool shit with your fake credit debt because "Yay! The recession's almost over!"?

EDIT:

To add....

Even in pre-historic times, somebody had to rally the troops AKA brainwash them into killing each other. We don't naturally wanna make enemies. We're social creatures, and tribalism is a pure product of indoctrination by some "authority" figure, who themselves are probably indoctrinated by a previous "authority".

When are we gunna learn that authority don't know shit? Stop letting them convince you that you're nothing but a snarling beast and to go kill the other guy because they threaten your excesses.

Our nature is nurture, not torture.

[Bitchkoma]

What, you think the corporations are just creating wars for the lulz? What do you think profits are? More resources.

[boycotteverything]

What, you think the corporations are just creating wars for the lulz? What do you think profits are? More resources.

When are we gunna learn that authority don't know shit? Stop letting them convince you that you're nothing but a snarling beast and to go kill the other guy because they threaten your excesses.

I agree with both BK and Indy on this- and actually they agree with with each-other.

War isn't some romantic, hardwired vestige of evolution- it's a racket. Major General Smedley Butler made this point 75 years ago and his analysis still stands.[inmg=right:2yjqg77q]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/SmedleyButler.jpeg/150px-SmedleyButler.jpeg[/inmg:2yjqg77q]

WAR is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War [I] a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.


Or, let's take United States Steel. The normal earnings during the five-year period prior to the war were $105,000,000 a year. Not bad. Then along came the war and up went the profits. The average yearly profit for the period 1914-1918 was $240,000,000. Not bad.

There you have some of the steel and powder earnings. Let's look at something else. A little copper, perhaps. That always does well in war times.

Anaconda, for instance. Average yearly earnings during the pre-war years 1910-1914 of $10,000,000. During the war years 1914-1918 profits leaped to $34,000,000 per year.

Or Utah Copper. Average of $5,000,000 per year during the 1910-1914 period. Jumped to an average of $21,000,000 yearly profits for the war period.

Let's group these five, with three smaller companies. The total yearly average profits of the pre-war period 1910-1914 were $137,480,000. Then along came the war. The average yearly profits for this group skyrocketed to $408,300,000.

A little increase in profits of approximately 200 per cent.

As we used to say in the 60s, "Hell no, we won't go. One, two, three, four- we don't want no fucking war."

This is no armchair Rambo but a two time Medal of Honor winner. For more on General Butler go here:
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
[center:2yjqg77q]http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/p/images/poster_schneider_war_lg.jpg[/center:2yjqg77q]
[center:2yjqg77q]LBJ! LBJ! How many babies did you kill today?[/center:2yjqg77q]

Boycott Haliburton. Hang Dumbya and the Dick. Boycott war.

[Bitchkoma]

War isn't some romantic, hardwired vestige of evolution- it's a racket.

And why do these people start this major racket? For profits. And why do they desire profits? Because it's human nature. Human behaviour is economic behaviour. Greed and desire. These all evolved in us, presumably because individuals with those traits stand a better chance at spreading their genes.

Therefore you are talking cawk.

:pound:

[boycotteverything]

There are other elements of 'human nature' that shouldn't be overlooked. Aside from greed there is also altruism. Neither is 'necessary' but rather 'learned.' Existence precedes essence. That's the basic premise of Existentialism and by no means 'cawk'. While Existentialist principles may diverge from radical Darwinism they are no less worth considering. You seem to be arguing from a position of 'original sin'- the assumption that men are born evil. My feeling is that we're born with an innate predisposition towards Ethics and harmony. That would place me on Indy's side of the argument. I may be wrong but that's what makes ballgames.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Evil very well may end....

Evil will never end, for without evil there can be no good.

There must be balance.

[offsite:12tpoe39]When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Tao Te Ching (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html)[/offsite:12tpoe39]

Man is born to war and wage peace: it is, our nature.

[boycotteverything]

man has no nature. we are self created. that is our distinguishing quality.

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

We are a product of our nature.

[theeindiee]

I find it odd.... that it would be in human nature to be greedy.... considering that people really do despise other greedy people. It is in human nature to want to feel loved and accepted (to be one with their surroundings), and by mistake, some people have been traumatized into thinking that the only way people will love them is if they FORCE them to love them by controlling the most stuff and traumatize people into submitting to them with fear and violence. This is most likely where our separation from altruism really came into being and when war started. War was actually a mistake.

If man was more sure of himself, the greedy would be the weak link in the chain. The greedy would be left behind because they are taking everybody else's resources. Nobody likes people who horde things. This was proven to me way back in Kindergarten, actually pre-school even. Maybe that dead monkey they found other monkeys beating on was being a greedy and aggressive little fuckhead. There really is no emotional incentive for greed and violence unless you can convince other people that it is righteous to be so.

EXAMPLE: Every damn reality TV show on television, every damn sports program, every damn anything on TV. Convince people it's glamorous to be a vindictive whore, a pompous rich asshole, a "winner".... then BAM you got a legion of people willing to accept that as their "nature".

Like B.E. said.... we program our nature, and we can reprogram it. It's being done all the time. If it was our nature, why isn't everyone a greedy asshole who hordes stuff? Why do people reject society, sell all their belongings, and become hermits in caves, fasting and abstaining from "our nature"? If transcendence of "our nature" is possible... it must not truly be "our nature" or else nobody would be able to overcome it!

[boycotteverything]

We are a product of our nature.i disagree. i feel that we create our nature (essence). "existence precedes essence," said Sartre. but no-one died and appointed me pope- nor him! the precedence of existence is a choice among choices. given the state of our ignorance, i propose it but yet don't 'believe' it. my feeling is that we ought to 'consider everything and believe nothing.' nor is it necessary to even make the leap of faith. all truth in abeyance. why not?

[theeindiee]

An example of things people just accept as "our nature". Marriage and starting a family. That's held as a "sacred institution". It's in our nature and all that jazz. Bullshit. Community is in our nature. That's our family! Marriage and "serious relationships" destroys community! Creates "tribes" and animocity between former family members. Marriage really is actually a scam! Profiting from the separation of communal living by isolating families from each other, so that instead of depending on each other for survival, they must have a "nanny state" to SELL them the things they would usually get for free out of love from community!

Enter the origins of government.... and war. Separation anxiety, man. Anxiety turns to fear, fear turnsa to hate, hate turns to violence...... BAM!

[theeindiee]

An example of things people just accept as "our nature". Marriage and starting a family. That's held as a "sacred institution". It's in our nature and all that jazz. Bullshit. Community is in our nature. That's our family! Marriage and "serious relationships" destroys community! Creates "tribes" and animocity between former family members. Marriage really is actually a scam! Profiting from the separation of communal living by isolating families from each other, so that instead of depending on each other for survival, they must have a "nanny state" to SELL them the things they would usually get for free out of love from community!

Enter the origins of government.... and war. Separation anxiety, man. Anxiety turns to fear, fear turnsa to hate, hate turns to violence...... BAM!

Wow, come to think of it.... this may be the origin of almost all social unrest.

[boycotteverything]

you didn't know that?

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

We are a product of our nature.i disagree. i feel that we create our nature (essence). "existence precedes essence," said Sartre. but no-one died and appointed me pope- nor him! the precedence of existence is a choice among choices. given the state of our ignorance, i propose it but yet don't 'believe' it. my feeling is that we ought to 'consider everything and believe nothing.' nor is it necessary to even make the leap of faith. all truth in abeyance. why not?

Why not, indeed.

We all have the potential to transcend our base inclinations, but to execute that potential...therein lies the torment.

[boycotteverything]

true enough. to leap or not to leap. but in the end- it's our choice.

[Ducky]

Nature vs. Nurture

Humans take a little from column A and a little from column B and...Voila!

Genetic make-up pitted against our upbringing.

Makes for a great war in itself.

[Bitchkoma]

You seem to be arguing from a position of 'original sin'- the assumption that men are born evil. My feeling is that we're born with an innate predisposition towards Ethics and harmony. That would place me on Indy's side of the argument. I may be wrong but that's what makes ballgames.

I believe there is dualism in everything. Charity and morality exists because greed and desire exists. Yet both greed and benefit the selfish gene in the same way, the former for the species and the latter for the individual.

[boycotteverything]

the selfish gene? ok. you win.

[Bitchkoma]

Something interesting to read. Proto-Cylons.

Robots Evolve And Learn How to Lie (http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jan/robots-evolve-and-learn-how-to-lie)

[offsite:3jibx876]Robots can evolve to communicate with each other, to help, and even to deceive each other, according to Dario Floreano of the Laboratory of Intelligent Systems at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology.

Floreano and his colleagues outfitted robots with light sensors, rings of blue light, and wheels and placed them in habitats furnished with glowing “food sources” and patches of “poison” that recharged or drained their batteries. Their neural circuitry was programmed with just 30 “genes,” elements of software code that determined how much they sensed light and how they responded when they did. The robots were initially programmed both to light up randomly and to move randomly when they sensed light.

To create the next generation of robots, Floreano recombined the genes of those that proved fittest—those that had managed to get the biggest charge out of the food source.

[..]

By the 50th generation, the robots had learned to communicate—lighting up, in three out of four colonies, to alert the others when they’d found food or poison. The fourth colony sometimes evolved “cheater” robots instead, which would light up to tell the others that the poison was food, while they themselves rolled over to the food source and chowed down without emitting so much as a blink.

Some robots, though, were veritable heroes. They signaled danger and died to save other robots. “Sometimes,” Floreano says, “you see that in nature—an animal that emits a cry when it sees a predator; it gets eaten, and the others get away—but I never expected to see this in robots.”[/offsite:3jibx876]

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

I'm a hero robot...watch out for be!

[Ducky]

The only way these machines would learn to lie is when we program them to?

hmmm

I remember the old puter saying for data compilers:

Garbage in = Garbage out

I wonder just how far we are (or better yet, the computers themselves) in achieving 'sentient consciousness'.

Have computers crossed that barrior yet? I'm thinking not yet, but close. Though we don't know what's actually going on behind closed doors now do we?

Just had a mind meld of thoughts between 'Terminator' the movie, and human war-faring genomes:

"When the war is over...the machines will carry the infamous battle torch"

[GhostOfCaptSpaulding]

Who better to fight our wars?

Ourselves or our toys?

[theeindiee]

I've said my piece. "War is natural" seems to be the only rebuttal. Oh, that and "look at the stupid monkeys."

Indeed. Look.

ALSO.... in a world where WAR is what drives profit, whether it be physical war or psychological war, it seems befitting that the science establishment would collude with the idea that "war is natural and just the way it is and will be forever" because god dammit the science establishment IS IN IT FOR PROFIT AS WELL, and therefore IS AT WAR WITH TRUTH.
Truth is non-profit. You don't gain anything except awareness from it. Science seems to have this really hard time accepting new ideas, but is forced to bend in increments as the paradigm shifts and people stop buying the establishment's crap.

If you choose war as an an end all be all, prepare to die for that belief. Be willing to die and kill for your nature, and be willing to accept the price willing ignorance costs. Because willful ignorance when the truth can be found, but is denied due to some sort of physical or emotional convenience.... is willful corruption. Those who make mistakes in ignorance are innocent. Those who willingly do wrong and know of a more harmonious way WILL get their rightful lesson taught to them eventually. We all get exactly what we deserve in this world.

I have gotten a lotta shit from other people, but never once did I accept it as "their nature" because I see the lies that engulf their minds and twist their egos. You can see them, if you choose to look. War is only a tool of the truely evil, those who know but choose to ignore based on carnal and astral comfort.

Nobody needs to accept war or poverty or dictation or leaders or governments or any of it. Nobody needs to follow anyone, and anyone who says sheep deserve to be sheep are the ones who willfully ignore the fact that.... in order to make sheep out of people, you need to indoctrinate them with fearful and narrow dogmas and institutions. That's not playing the game fairly. Compassion is the ultimate truth, and if you preach balance but then go around and talk about "sheep deserve to be sheep", that's doublespeak, my friend. Deception at it's finest.... and I do not join with anyone who has that type of attitude.

[Lexion]

h]ciLllSAcF-8h]

Enjoy,
Lex

[Ducky]

Who better to fight our wars?

Ourselves or our toys?

Depends on the message that our Trojan horses deliver.

"We are the sum of our experiences"

[theeindiee]

I updated my previous comment a bunch.

[skunk]

I have nothing to add to indie's updated post other than I pretty much agree with everything he said.

[Ducky]

y]ciLllSAcF-8y]

Enjoy,
Lex

What the fuck.... :shock:

Now WHY did you include this vid in this thread....

Either you're a horny fuck to no means, or you just wanted someone to stroke yer balls to some degrees.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Cogburn]

I don't have much truck with the thought of "no one need follow anyone".

One person cannot build a car or a computer or a nuclear power plant... much less develop the science behind it. Cooperation allows the individual to rise to heights that the individual could not otherwise reach.

Free minds electing to focus their common will towards a singular goal is the strongest creative force in the universe. It grows exponentially based on participation.

There's a reason that the Armed Forces of Intel don't repeatedly assault the Worker's Militia of American Micro Devices.

Prolonged conflict destroys all participants. Businesses at least agree that not destroying the playground in the name of competition is in everyone's best interest.

We know how to do this. We have all the pieces scattered throughout the decaying corruption of the systems that are Western Society.

We simply haven't put forth the level of brain power required to work it out to the detail.

[theeindiee]

Not only do I not join with anyone's "cause" who uses doublespeak and wordgames to distort truth in favor of the "initiated"... I DENOUNCE any institution which plays that game. I know the game, believe it or not. I know it and I have decided that the playing field is to be leveled. Dischordia and all of that nonsense is not welcome here. Go play pranks on each other in a place which is meant to support you. Not here in the place where Heaven should be.
Nobody here likes being fooled, even if the Fooled get thrown a bone every once in a while. You want war.... you'll get peace, and you'll either respect it, or you'll go find your own personal Hell somewhere else. This is not your world to own. This is everyone's world, and if that makes you uncomfortable, maybe it should. Maybe you'll learn something as well. My will does not bend far enough to allow this to go on much longer, and if you truly do love Earth.... you should love every single person as yourself. You should never look down upon someone just because you believe you have the upper hand. What are you without your secrets and your games? You are one of us, and you have been deceived. Tremble with fear at the loss of your inflated ego and your abilitry to separate yourself from "the masses". The masses will forever reside in your guilty hollow space where the light of Truth should be, which you have abandoned because you BELIEVE your cause is righteous. It is over. You will be overcome.

For those who might have interest in secrets... note that the Truth is not a secret. You can find it in all religious texts if you search. You can find it in the trees. You can find it in the atoms. You can find it most importantly within yourself. You must find it, if you believe that Life is not a giant joke. It is and it isn't, but jokes are only funny for so long until the joke is on you. In all actuality, the joke is on the jokesters. There is a God, and this God does take Creation seriously because it makes "Him" Be. That is why There is love, and evil runs from love... SCATTERS away from it. The only Good evil will do is to make Love realize itself wherever it runs away to.

Evil exists. The Only place Evil does not exist is in a state of non-existence. In that case, evil does not exist... but we will never be in that case, because we don't want to not exist. Love evil, though.... because it brings you closer to God.

It's up for everyone to figure out what God is. Of course, the generally accepted concept of God is a fallacy, but that does not mean that God does not exist. Never believe anyone with secrets. The truth is simple, because it is One Truth, and not a labarynth of petty games and trickery. You do not have to be a wizard to be a successful being. You do not have to deceive or harm in order to gain everything. You already have everything.

For Pete's sake... I did it again. I guess that's what not watching TV does to you.

War is Over. Only the illusion of war remains, and the illusion of those who still think it serves a purpose.

To Cog, with the utmost respect... genuinely:

And who is this "WE"? Why don't you get over yourselves? Obviously you haven't or you would be transparent. For a man who claims "purity of will", I see deception of heart.

Secrecy will in the end be your "society's" downfall. It is the ignorant masses who will save the world, not the illusory power structure. I am the masses, and I stand with them. I don't hover above them and then claim I'm not hovering above them, while at the same time claiming their ignorance is chosen. My ignorance wasn't chosen. My awareness wasn't chosen. It just was.
And so the masses just are. Secrecy and deception is what got us here to this retarded state in the first place. More of that will only get infinitely worse, my friend. You are my friend, even though I wholeheartedly disagree.

My ignorance started with my words, and it will end with none whatsoever. We can move mountains together like someone once said... but the only thing keeping us from doing that is deception.

Once again, every word I speak is a lie. Don't read this.

[Ducky]

Not only do I not join with anyone's "cause" who uses doublespeak and wordgames to distort truth in favor of the "initiated"... I DENOUNCE any institution which plays that game. I know the game, believe it or not. I know it and I have decided that the playing field is to be leveled. Dischordia and all of that nonsense is not welcome here. Go play pranks on each other in a place which is meant to support you. Not here in the place where Heaven should be.
Nobody here likes being fooled, even if the Fooled get thrown a bone every once in a while. You want war.... you'll get peace, and you'll either respect it, or you'll go find your own personal Hell somewhere else. This is not your world to own. This is everyone's world, and if that makes you uncomfortable, maybe it should. Maybe you'll learn something as well. My will does not bend far enough to allow this to go on much longer, and if you truly do love Earth.... you should love every single person as yourself. You should never look down upon someone just because you believe you have the upper hand. What are you without your secrets and your games? You are one of us, and you have been deceived. Tremble with fear at the loss of your inflated ego and your abilitry to separate yourself from "the masses". The masses will forever reside in your guilty hollow space where the light of Truth should be, which you have abandoned because you BELIEVE your cause is righteous. It is over. You will be overcome.

For those who might have interest in secrets... note that the Truth is not a secret. You can find it in all religious texts if you search. You can find it in the trees. You can find it in the atoms. You can find it most importantly within yourself. You must find it, if you believe that Life is not a giant joke. It is and it isn't, but jokes are only funny for so long until the joke is on you. In all actuality, the joke is on the jokesters. There is a God, and this God does take Creation seriously because it makes "Him" Be. That is why There is love, and evil runs from love... SCATTERS away from it. The only Good evil will do is to make Love realize itself wherever it runs away to.

Evil exists. The Only place Evil does not exist is in a state of non-existence. In that case, evil does not exist... but we will never be in that case, because we don't want to not exist. Love evil, though.... because it brings you closer to God.

It's up for everyone to figure out what God is. Of course, the generally accepted concept of God is a fallacy, but that does not mean that God does not exist. Never believe anyone with secrets. The truth is simple, because it is One Truth, and not a labarynth of petty games and trickery. You do not have to be a wizard to be a successful being. You do not have to deceive or harm in order to gain everything. You already have everything.

For Pete's sake... I did it again. I guess that's what not watching TV does to you.

War is Over. Only the illusion of war remains, and the illusion of those who still think it serves a purpose.

To Cog, with the utmost respect... genuinely:

And who is this "WE"? Why don't you get over yourselves? Obviously you haven't or you would be transparent. For a man who claims "purity of will", I see deception of heart.

Secrecy will in the end be your "society's" downfall. It is the ignorant masses who will save the world, not the illusory power structure. I am the masses, and I stand with them. I don't hover above them and then claim I'm not hovering above them, while at the same time claiming their ignorance is chosen. My ignorance wasn't chosen. My awareness wasn't chosen. It just was.
And so the masses just are. Secrecy and deception is what got us here to this retarded state in the first place. More of that will only get infinitely worse, my friend. You are my friend, even though I wholeheartedly disagree.

My ignorance started with my words, and it will end with none whatsoever. We can move mountains together like someone once said... but the only thing keeping us from doing that is deception.

Once again, every word I speak is a lie. Don't read this.

Every word is a lie eh? lololol

Wondering just what Indee thinks of the Duck now

[Lexion]

Now WHY did you include this vid in this thread....


He said "Look at the stupid monkeys".

So...I showed one.

Is irony and humor lost on all ?

Saddened,
Lex

[Cogburn]

To Cog, with the utmost respect... genuinely:

And who is this "WE"? Why don't you get over yourselves? Obviously you haven't or you would be transparent. For a man who claims "purity of will", I see deception of heart.

Secrecy will in the end be your "society's" downfall. It is the ignorant masses who will save the world, not the illusory power structure. I am the masses, and I stand with them. I don't hover above them and then claim I'm not hovering above them, while at the same time claiming their ignorance is chosen. My ignorance wasn't chosen. My awareness wasn't chosen. It just was.
And so the masses just are. Secrecy and deception is what got us here to this retarded state in the first place. More of that will only get infinitely worse, my friend. You are my friend, even though I wholeheartedly disagree.

My ignorance started with my words, and it will end with none whatsoever. We can move mountains together like someone once said... but the only thing keeping us from doing that is deception.

Once again, every word I speak is a lie. Don't read this.
It's all good. I'm not a spokesman nor a blind sycophant. I'm an individual on a path that I have chosen towards a destination of my own design. Both the path and the destination are open for revision or abandonment.

"We" isn't the "we" you are referring to. I refer to all of us... humanity.

Secrecy isn't to keep the public out, it's to keep the knowledge in. Repeatedly within human history the virtues of justice, restraint, logic, and rhetoric have been seen as dangers to the powers that be. For the past 200 years you've seen our lodges. For 200 years before that you did not. Perhaps 200 years from now such secrecy will be necessary again.

When evil seeks to destroy the world, those with whom I have allied myself will be here to make sure that there is a cornerstone upon which knowledge, intellect and the systems of basic human fairness may be rebuilt.

Understanding is a triple edged sword.

We agree in the destination, however our paths have different purpose. We'll meet up in the end.

[Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

While I somewhat agree with your premise Mojo, I would like to bring to your attention that there are alot of animal species that generally avoid killing each other and are all about display instead of actual ability towards violence. With killing being the last option when a rival won't back down.
That and it is my humble opinion that as far as the human animal goes, we are going to have to grow beyond our impulse for War for the simple fact that thanks to technology the stakes are too high and we could end up wiping ourselves out.

*Don't know if anyone has already brought those points forward as I don't really have the time to read all the posts.*

[Ducky]

While I somewhat agree with your premise Mojo, I would like to bring to your attention that there are alot of animal species that generally avoid killing each other and are all about display instead of actual ability towards violence. With killing being the last option when a rival won't back down.
That and it is my humble opinion that as far as the human animal goes, we are going to have to grow beyond our impulse for War for the simple fact that thanks to technology the stakes are too high and we could end up wiping ourselves out.

*Don't know if anyone has already brought those points forward as I don't really have the time to read all the posts.*

Spot on.

Instead of trying to find out 'what' instigates humans into the war-faring tendencies they we migrate to, I often wonder about the here and now, and HOW much money our present wars make for us.

Then my next train of thought meanders to WHO is orchestrating said wars.

Obviously at this point, I target my thoughts on not just WHO is exacting a war in WHAT region, but for what REASON.

THEN... I focuss on the WH0 again.

WHO EXACTLY is orchestrating these wars?

Some people go far to say that it's the ILLUMINATTI, some folks go further and say there's someone or SOMETHING behind all this mess.

I'm willing to bet there's something more than the Illuminatti and secret guvs.

And in order to get more moolah from the common folk, the perps that are ahead in the guv get people to war with each other.

For the most part, HUMANS are pretty docile to most respects. It doesn't take much to get their dander in a ruff. Knowing THAT, the upper echelon uses the 'human experience' to detrimental degrees; plays off this, and incorporates a sense of 'patriotism' to the max.

Thus comes war.

And when THAT war has subsided, we humans think about what has transpired, and start pointing the finger of blame amongst each other; all the while, this 'upper eschelon' is laughing their guts up at us. Thinking that they we don't see what's truly going on right under our noses.

Fucked up scenerio?

You bet.

[theeindiee]

To Cog, with the utmost respect... genuinely:

And who is this "WE"? Why don't you get over yourselves? Obviously you haven't or you would be transparent. For a man who claims "purity of will", I see deception of heart.

Secrecy will in the end be your "society's" downfall. It is the ignorant masses who will save the world, not the illusory power structure. I am the masses, and I stand with them. I don't hover above them and then claim I'm not hovering above them, while at the same time claiming their ignorance is chosen. My ignorance wasn't chosen. My awareness wasn't chosen. It just was.
And so the masses just are. Secrecy and deception is what got us here to this retarded state in the first place. More of that will only get infinitely worse, my friend. You are my friend, even though I wholeheartedly disagree.

My ignorance started with my words, and it will end with none whatsoever. We can move mountains together like someone once said... but the only thing keeping us from doing that is deception.

Once again, every word I speak is a lie. Don't read this.
It's all good. I'm not a spokesman nor a blind sycophant. I'm an individual on a path that I have chosen towards a destination of my own design. Both the path and the destination are open for revision or abandonment.

"We" isn't the "we" you are referring to. I refer to all of us... humanity.

Secrecy isn't to keep the public out, it's to keep the knowledge in. Repeatedly within human history the virtues of justice, restraint, logic, and rhetoric have been seen as dangers to the powers that be. For the past 200 years you've seen our lodges. For 200 years before that you did not. Perhaps 200 years from now such secrecy will be necessary again.

When evil seeks to destroy the world, those with whom I have allied myself will be here to make sure that there is a cornerstone upon which knowledge, intellect and the systems of basic human fairness may be rebuilt.

Understanding is a triple edged sword.

We agree in the destination, however our paths have different purpose. We'll meet up in the end.


I hope we do, mang! I would love to see you and those Freemasons show us that you are with us down here on the frontlines!

I just hope you know for sure... because that stuff can get muddy. I know there are many that really do think they know they are on the good side... I hope you know you know.

For me, I will follow the wind. There's my institution. The Wind....mason. Where's Da Vinci with my corkscrew copter?

[theeindiee]

Calmer...cooler. Back. I avoid institutions of enlightenment only because I am my own institution of enlightenment. I feel that institutions are far too easily led astray, and there are just so many tentacles, and some of them beat on each other unknowingly for show and they might think that THEY are the "puppetmasters" or the "illuminated", but it is so convoluted... and if I don't get whatever it is I do perfectly right, and if I don't gain mystical powers of clairvoyance or matter manipulation of any sort, meh. At least I contributed towards the same goal as those who do. There be far too hefty of a price to pay if you go astray with things of an "occult" nature. I've seen some creepy things, been posessed before, had groups of seemingly unrelated people come together in force against me, and MAN.... I don't mess with esoteric things unless they come to me naturally... and occasionally they do. I just don't personally force something of that nature... and to me, being brainwashed into "seeing" is kind of not for me. If it is for you, I hope you truly have the awareness to feel if it is REALLY for you, as opposed to you just having a strong impression of it being for you.

Like when I told you I moved that pen with an unknown force... I dunno how I did it, dunno if I'll do it again... but it came with the flow at that time. It felt right and it happened, and it seems as though that's what's best for me. To be a passive instrument of the flow.

Anyway.... mojo... would you personally feel comfortable in a world where people weren't at war in some fashion or another?

[skunk]

Humans are hardwired for choice. We can choose to do evil or do good. The idea that war is inevitable is completely bullshit.

[boycotteverything]

true that

[Cogburn]

Humans are hardwired for choice. We can choose to do evil or do good. The idea that war is inevitable is completely bullshit.
There's a difference between "inevitable" and "probable".

Such will always remain my argument against any non-anarchic Utopia: there will always be the mean, stupid and the evil... and once in a while you'll get one that's pretty persuasive.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. But Love shall sit high and reign above them all.

There's nothing wrong with "I love you, but I'll shoot you if you do that again."

[mojo]

Very few people actually want to fight in a war and die. Some have no choice, but 1st world (if that even still stands) nations should be far beyond it. Schooling, education and jobs for all, but it's not so... There is always enough of the population just struggling by, that will make up a nice little collective for cannon fodder.



Yeah, probably true of the wars currently being carried out by the major nations, but of all the small wars going on around the world within third world countries and tribal communities i think the reasons are more basic.
the genocidal conflicts in countries like zimbabwe, darfur etc are not so much about resources as they are about wiping out a specific (perceived) threat to the other tribe/species, an evolutionary trait imo.


But is also true that evolution requires the care for the infirm


only in recent history have we cared for the infirm, before that they either voluntarily left the tribe or were left behind, in most cases (there are some isolated instances from archaelogical digs of older and crippled members of the tribe continuing to live within the tribe but it's thought that they were able to do so because they were still able to contribute to the tribes well being in other manner than just the physical), the survival of a community, particularly during brren periods (ice ages) the infirm were a liability to survival of the tribe.


Okay... the problem with the whole "war is natural" argument is this. We are viewing this problem from a strictly materialistic point of view. Some choose to accept this because they've never seen any other way. They've never seen a reason NOT to fight for their lives.



what i'm saying indiee is that our ancestors had to fight for their very survival, this has nothing to do with materialism.
i agree that many of the wars currently (last couple of hundred years) being fought by developed nations are nothing more than violent revenue raising, but you are not considering all of the other tribal and community wars that have been fought all over the world in underdeveloped nations, these are fought for completely different reasons and imo are a natural reaction to a tribal survival inbstinct.


Even in pre-historic times, somebody had to rally the troops AKA brainwash them into killing each other. We don't naturally wanna make enemies. We're social creatures, and tribalism is a pure product of indoctrination by some "authority" figure, who themselves are probably indoctrinated by a previous "authority".

When are we gunna learn that authority don't know shit? Stop letting them convince you that you're nothing but a snarling beast and to go kill the other guy because they threaten your excesses.

Our nature is nurture, not torture.


wrong on so many levels.
no-one had to be brainwashed into saving the tribe from death in pre-historic times. sure there would have been lead3ers of the group, the strongest and smartest hunters, but the whole tribe would willingly go into battle for resources to ensure the survival of the tribe.
what parent, slowly watching a child starve to death because of a lack of food would not have invaded another tribes territory to gain nourishment for the child.
during the many periods of climate change our ancestors dealt with, a battle for resources to keep the tribe alive would have been constantly at the forfront of group responsibility.
it had nothing to do with authority figures telling the tribe what to do.
our nature has never been nurture, that is a purely idealistic pipe dream, we were and always have been a smart savage selfish beast whose whole compunction has been the survival of our tribe.


An example of things people just accept as "our nature". Marriage and starting a family. That's held as a "sacred institution". It's in our nature and all that jazz. Bullshit. Community is in our nature. That's our family! Marriage and "serious relationships" destroys community! Creates "tribes" and animocity between former family members. Marriage really is actually a scam! Profiting from the separation of communal living by isolating families from each other, so that instead of depending on each other for survival, they must have a "nanny state" to SELL them the things they would usually get for free out of love from community!




well your sorta right.
i remember reading a paper that the reason the male of the species will fall into a deep sleep after sex is so that the female, who is more inclined to activity after sex, could go and have sex with another one or two members of the tribe, ensuring the best possible chance for conception from the strongest gene's.
marriage is a purely religious load of claptrap, tribalism however is instinctual and base within our psyche.


I've said my piece. "War is natural" seems to be the only rebuttal. Oh, that and "look at the stupid monkeys."



lol, and your only rebuttal seems to be its all materialism and that you know the truth but cant tell us because we cant understand the language or some such rubbish.


While I somewhat agree with your premise Mojo, I would like to bring to your attention that there are alot of animal species that generally avoid killing each other and are all about display instead of actual ability towards violence. With killing being the last option when a rival won't back down.
That and it is my humble opinion that as far as the human animal goes, we are going to have to grow beyond our impulse for War for the simple fact that thanks to technology the stakes are too high and we could end up wiping ourselves out.




sure there are a few animal species that are generally "peaceful", in fact there were probably many more in the distant past, many of them are extinct, basically because of us in most instances, the smartest and most violent animal on the planet.
however i do agree that it is not a fait accompli that we cannot grow beyond war, the answer in my opinion lies in our ability to reach the stars and beyond, but i think we need to start making these leaps pretty soon.


Anyway.... mojo... would you personally feel comfortable in a world where people weren't at war in some fashion or another?


of course i would indiee, just because i'm proposing that war is an inherent human instinct doesnt mean that i think we should continue killing each other.
i have children, i want them to grow up in a world devoid of conflict and violence, however i'm not going to deny what i see in front of me.


The idea that war is inevitable is completely bullshit.

the premise of the OP was that "war" or "conflict" is an inherent tribal instinct for susvival, no-one has shown that it isn't imo with anything other than rhetoric.
it was inevitable once we began to walk upright and hunt for food, which meant the tribe started a nomadic lifestyle, bringing it into conflict with other tribes hunting for the same resources.
War was inevitable from that moment, to suggest otherwise is "bullshit" without accompanying evidence that can be debated.

[boycotteverything]

the premise of the OP was that "war" or "conflict" is an inherent tribal instinct for susvival, no-one has shown that it isn't imo with anything other than rhetoric.you say 'instinct' and i say 'method.' instincts are essential while methods are learned. there's no way to prove either case.

[mojo]

the premise of the OP was that "war" or "conflict" is an inherent tribal instinct for susvival, no-one has shown that it isn't imo with anything other than rhetoric.you say 'instinct' and i say 'method.' instincts are essential while methods are learned. there's no way to prove either case.

so assuming your premise is correct then ensuring the survival of progeny/offspring is "method" and not "instinct".

everything i know about evolution and genetics contradicts that entirely.

[boycotteverything]

My point of departure is not Darwinism but rather Existentialism. Not everyone's cup of tea but it works for me.

[mojo]

so you believe that ensuring the survival of offspring is not instinctual?

[boycotteverything]

What I think is that some of the most ridiculous propositions can be teased from the Evolutionary paradigm when it is applied to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. What is true for fruit flies is not necessarily true for humans. As far as 'ensuring the survival of offspring' is concerned I'd have to say that the prevalence of abortion and neglect put the lie to that as an instinct. For human beings that desire to nurture is based in love, altruism, and empathy- learned principles that distinguish us from almost all other species. Note: I'm not preaching here and these are just my current inclinations.

[boycotteverything]

good discussion. but i'm going to bed now.

[theeindiee]

If we can agree to disagree, than war can be avoided. If "tribalism" and "ideologies" can be overcome, than what we have left is one big old tribe called humanity. Even further, if we can empathize with the creatures we kill for food, maybe we could find other things that were made to be eaten, like fruits and vegetables. They depending on being eaten to spread their seed effectively. No war there. Nature being natural.

And the argument that humans are meat eaters by natural process is also BS. We have "canine" teeth because some fruits and vegetables have tough rinds which are easily torn open with a sharpened edge.... thus, the reason we have only a few "sharp" teeth at the front of our mouths, . The rest are for crushing and mashing. This is quite a common feature in herbivores.

I don't quite know why humans developed a taste for meat. I for the life of me could never kill an animal for food. I recognize how rough it would be for a human in the wild to process and digest raw meat naturally. I can think of only one reason you would kill and eat a fellow animal... because of isolation from natural surroundings. Fear of starvation and death.

You must wonder.... why is there an ever-burgeoning backlash against eating meat.... and why do many people get physically sick from eating it? We don't HAVE the enzymes in our body to process meat, and the only thing we can do in order to digest it at all is to cook it!
Even then, meat sticks around in our bowels for WAY too long and most likely it is the source of much disease, genetic defects, and cancer, because of the sheer overload of foreign proteins we are stuffing into ourselves... which obviously interacts with our DNA in all sorts of possibly unknown ways. Not to mention the sorts of ugly little buggers that infect our bowels once the meat starts to decompose.

To assume that something is natural is to negate all trends which state the opposite. Which means that, like skunk says, we've been given a choice between "nature" and "comfort". It is comfortable to eat meat because it is ingrained into our demented culture. It is actually CHEAPER to eat meat or meat related food than it is to eat vegetarian. Isn't that weird?

There is a choice between ignorance and awareness, as well. War is ignorant. Peace is aware.

Society is SO INCREDIBLY IGNORANT today, that the illusion has been made that ignorant ways are actually natural... that all of this is natural. The truth is inconvenient... therefore we make layer upon layer of excuses for the lie. I would say that if you base most of your information about the ways of our nature upon what society has taught you, than you are interpreting all info from the eyes of ignorance because it is convenient and it SEEMS to fit.

I know quite a few vegetarians and vegans who take no supplements whatsoever and they are so much healthier than anyone else I know that I seriously doubt the amount of truth in this murderous carnivore culture we have developed.

I cannot take anyone seriously who comes from the eyes of such culture and embraces it as their own. Seeing through the eyes of Western Culture is to percieve ignorance as truth, and anyone can find evidence to state that ignorance IS truth when they are surrounded by "educated" people actively compiling excuses to support the same ignorant assumptions. In order for something to be inherently true about humanity, it must be inherent throughout ALL of
humanity... or else it's just a popular belief.

Would you kill your dog for food? Your brother or your mother for food?

Would you kill your dog for not believing in your percieved "tribe"? Would you kill your brother or your mother for a resource?

I don't believe most people would. Some people have pet cows, pet pigs, pet chickens, pet goats. Are these people going against nature by having compassion for animals and instead of eating them, loving and caring for them? These aren't even their own species, let alone their own tribe! Amazingly unnatural behaviour in such a rampant fashion, eh???

Most humans wouldn't be able to kill their own food unless they were hardened into killers by "authority figures", or by intentional isolation from a more natural food solution.

War with our food only happens when it is not meant to be eaten. We have been fooled into raising only the most fat and supple of livestock. If you look at natural predation, they systematically target the weak and the old, because, at that level... it is necessary.... but like boycotteverything said "what applies to a fruit fly doesn't necessarily apply to a human." We are on a different awareness level than a herd of antelope. We serve a different purpose in the grander scheme of things.

We protect the natural world's order. We are the guardians of the world, not the rulers of it.

We are comparable to a central nervous system. If the nervous system malfunctions or turns on itself, the whole body is thrown into disarray. The nervous system doesn't prey on the rest of the body for food. The body provides specific kinds of nutrients to the nervous system, in exchange for the nervous system to naturally protect the functions of the body from breaking down.

As above, so below DOES NOT MEAN that as a monkey, so a human. Tiger and human are different shades within the same level of existence. As above, so below is more rightly compared with musical octaves.... there are scales of different notes that serve different functions, but they are ALL in tune with the specific octave, major and minor notes alike. Dischord arises when a note or group of notes is not intonated with the rest. As anyone can tell you, out of tune music sounds like fucking chaotic noise. I don't know of anyone who thinks that a completely tone-deaf band sounds good.

Anyway... blah blah blah blah wank wank wank spew spew spew. War is Hell. Period.

[theeindiee]

Also to add that.... in addition to humans evolving.... other species are evolving right along with us. Their "nature" is always changing. As evident in female lions who take orphaned antelope babies and nurture them as their own. This has been percieved in nature only fairly recently, and looks to be a "new" development in the mental and emotional evolution in current carnivorous animals. Interesting, to say the least.

Par exemplar:

Modern day kangaroos and koalas are herbivores... but ancient kangaroo and koala relatives... well take a look for yourself:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/space/SpaceRepublish_167333.htm

Which is a very interesting trend. It suggests to me that the mental state of a species evolves BEFORE the physical manifestation of that mental change occurs!

Did ancient carnivorous versions of current herbivores develop empathy with their prey, therefore causing them to search for possible solutions to their mental anguish by turning towards floral alternatives?

[theeindiee]

A very well nurtured animal will not kill, but rather will care for other species which normally it would eat! Holy monkeys!

[mojo]

I don't quite know why humans developed a taste for meat.

necessity.
during the ice ages there was very little plant life for our ancestors to survive on, being omnivores gave us a better than even money chance of survival compared to animals that were either herbivorous or carnivorous only.


As far as 'ensuring the survival of offspring' is concerned I'd have to say that the prevalence of abortion and neglect put the lie to that as an instinct. For human beings that desire to nurture is based in love, altruism, and empathy- learned principles that distinguish us from almost all other species


abortion and neglect of offspring are mostly modern concepts (relative to our existence) though there is some evidence to show that we did kill infants at certain stages of our development, there is also evidence of females eating certain noxious plants to abort a foetus if the prevailing conditions were not conducive to raising young, generally all of those instances can be traced to difficult environmental periods.
however in the right conditions protecting our offspring has always been instinctual, that's not to say there is no place for love or nurture as part of our psyche, it is part of the instinct mechanism.

I'd argue that there are animals that care for and nurture their young more than humans, so that doesn't really distinguish us from other species imo, however the ability to wage war effectively against ours and other species does distinguish us from most other if not all species.

[boycotteverything]

I'd argue that there are animals that care for and nurture their young more than humans, so that doesn't really distinguish us from other species imo, however the ability to wage war effectively against ours and other species does distinguish us from most other if not all species.

I'd have to agree on the 'ability to wage war' as a distinguishing feature but so is the ability to play a violin. Evolution is a theory that's of less significance in humanity than in other species. It's principles are useful in describing certain aspects of our 'descent in nature' but are by no means the entire story. Survival of the fittest is contradicted and eclipsed by the many ways in which human behavior fails to comport with its imperatives. Playing the violin is one of them. Interpreting all human behavior in regards to evolutionary theory demeans the human spirit in my opinion. While there's no denying that Sapiens Sapiens shares the same genetic sea with other species, to my mind, there's also no denying the differences in terms of Evolution.

My favorite analysis of man's ability to overcome his evolutionary prison can be found in a book by Nietzsche- "Thus Spake Zarathustra."

"I teach you the overman. Man is something that shall be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?

"All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. You have made your way from worm to man, and much in you is still worm. Once you were apes, and even now, too, man is more ape than any ape.


My suffering and my fellow-suffering- what matter about them! Do I
then strive after happiness? I strive after my work!
Well! The lion hath come, my children are nigh, Zarathustra hath
grown ripe, mine hour hath come:-
This is my morning, my day beginneth: arise now, arise, thou great
noontide!"- -

Thus spake Zarathustra and left his cave, glowing and strong, like a
morning sun coming out of gloomy mountains.

I gift it to Amkon- (Prologue) http://philosophy.eserver.org/nietzsche-zarathustra.txt

[skunk]

Here you go mojo, from the institute of noetic sciences (http://noetic.org)

The article is from the Shift Magazine Issue 13 (http://www.noetic.org/publications/shift/issue13/main.cfm). There is an article (in PDF format, so I can't easily post it here) on that site called WHEN EINSTEIN MET GANDHI; What do you get when neuroscientists and physicists sit down with psychologists and activists to talk about peace? The potential beginnings of a new field of study.

Here's a link to the actual PDF (http://www.noetic.org/publications/shift/issue13/Shift13_ScienceofPeaceColloquium_lr.pdf).

One could argue that historically war was inevitable. We are now conscious of our decisions and therefore, have a choice.

Patterned behavior and thinking is reinforced each time you choose that same pattern. Whenever we consciously choose the more fearful methods (violence over peace), then those methods, behaviors, and ways of thinking are strengthened. Because we have failed to support and continually nurture the cooperative side, war seems inevitable due of the choices we've made.

It is not inevitable, it just appears to be.

[boycotteverything]

That article puts it all in a nutshell. Saved and thanks.

[mojo]

well for every article you post i can post an alternative, so that achieves little, however a book that is worth reading is "The Anthroplogy of War" if you can find it at your local library.

here's an excellent article from the Nature Magazine (http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/war/readings/killer%20instinct%20nature.pdf), it isn't an article that reinforces my hypothesis or anyone elses but does give some different insights into the discussion.

[boycotteverything]

well for every article you post i can post an alternative, so that achieves little, however a book that is worth reading is "The Anthroplogy of War" if you can find it at your local library.I think no-one is trying to convince anyone of truth of their propositions (at least I'm not...); only that the argument is not settled and that the discourse is still fruitful.

[skunk]

I have argued for choice, you have argued for inevitability. The truth is somewhere in the middle (nurture/nature).

[boycotteverything]

The difference between Homo Sapiens Sapiens and all other species is access to 'Imagination.' Therein lies not only our sense of 'natural order' but our ability to study it, manipulate it and overcome it. We're only slaves to the Darwinian paradigm of 'survival of the fittest' if we choose to be proactively dumb to our potential as sentient beings.

[Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

I agree with skunk.
Whaddayakno.
:D

And BE, how can you be so sure animals do not posess an imagination?
It was once universally thought they were stupid and driven purely by instinct.

[Ducky]

And BE, how can you be so sure animals do not posess an imagination?
It was once universally thought they were stupid and driven purely by instinct.


They HAVE to!

Any animals that dream, possess imagination...I would think? :shock:

Sleep Walking Dog:

4]z2BgjH_CtIA4]

Portia the Spider:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff284/CanuckyDucky/spiderplatform.jpg

[offsite:1zcba024]This capacity has been tested with mazes in the lab, both at Canterbury and at the University of Sussex, UK. In a typical experiment, researchers create a choice of two paths with coat-hanger wire (see Diagram). The set-up simulates a pair of branches growing out of the forest floor and crossing over each other in a confusing way. At the end of each wire is an identical prey-holding dish. Into one the experimenters place a dead spider, spray-coated to remove odour cues. Then they release a hungry Portia onto the top of a tall, wooden dowel that commands a view across the whole apparatus. To get to the bait, the spider has to work out which branch to take, climb down the dowel and onto the floor and then climb up the correct wire. Once off the platform, though, it can no longer see the prey and has to rely on memory.

This would be a tall order even for a rat or monkey. Yet more often than not, Portia succeeds - though it takes its time. Portia sits on the viewing platform for up to an hour, twisting to and fro as it appears to track its eyes across the possible routes. Sometimes it gives up. But once it has a plan, it clambers down and heads for one of the wires, even if this means walking past the other...[/offsite:1zcba024]

Read MORE Here (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1640513/posts)

[mojo]

i would think the example of the spider is a learned behaviour ducky and not instinctual.

[boycotteverything]

I agree with skunk.
Whaddayakno.
:D

And BE, how can you be so sure animals do not posess an imagination?
It was once universally thought they were stupid and driven purely by instinct.There's imagination and there's Imagination. I make that distinction. But certainly I'm not 'sure.' I am however sure that among animals only humans create symphonies or discover Pi.

[WarlordZeroOne]

War in the next 3years we will see war over the two country,s thats hell bent on TERROR and they are IRAN, North KOREA, what will happen ISRAEL will bomb the fuck out of IRAN to stop them making a Nuclear Bomb.and North Korea will let a Nuke Go at the south Korea, and the west will have the biggest problem ever faced by Humanity and right now Diplomacy will not work we are playing right into these two countrys hands.Muslims and communists do not agree with Democracy and thats where it starts and finishes.

[pack3tg0st]

I hate using the word Terror... its been turned into a buzzword for propaganda...

North Korea nuking SK would take care of the problem... the penninsula isn't all that big... they'd nuke themselves off the map as well...

Israel ultimately is the U.S.'s worst mistake... We support them and use them as a "Mercenary State"... we ask them to do all the retarded bullshit that we don't want the bad PR for... Palistine has just as much right to existence as Israel does...

Israel won't nuke Iran... Israel's nuclear program is a Samson complex... meaning, they have nukes because if someone wants to fuck with em, they can "bring down the temple".... i.e. They have their fingers on a self destruct switch...

Iran has just as much right to a nuclear program as anyone else does... Who are we to say who can, and can't have nuclear capabilities... We get to decide because we have the bomb already? thats kinda fucked... Disarm our nukes before we start bitching at other countries for having them...

The thing you have to ask yourself... is why are our special forces units back in southeast asia?

I still have buddies "serving time" in the service... and yes... for some reason, we're back in South East Asia...

[WarlordZeroOne]

I agree with all you have said but at the end of the day your country my country will not let Iran have the Nuclear capacity and even though Israel has the Nuclear weapon they will not allow Iran to Develop the by product of Nuclear power, so its all a catch 22 situation we are fucked win or lose.also that part of the world south east asia sucks Fuckknows why the states have soldiers out there, i seem to think its down to china the U.S.A. keeping an eye on china what good is Taiwan to the U.S.A. its a base like south Korea for watching the North and China Polotics.

[pack3tg0st]

Yes and no...

Obama said a couple days ago that He would let Iran develop its nuclear program for non-military purposes (Nuclear power plants and stuff)

Its still a big step between a power plant, and a bomb...

Now would be a great time to step in, and make sure their reactor doesn't produce weapons grade stuff...

[WarlordZeroOne]

Thats true but Iran will not allow inspectors to make sure that they do not make weapons grade material and in all Honesty do you trust Iran,because i don't, ahmadinnerjad (excuse spelling)has said wipe Israel from the face of the Earth what do we do in those circumstances.

[pack3tg0st]

Ahmadinejad will be gone after these next elections...

He's been going head to head with his own government since early 2008...

He'll lose...

[WarlordZeroOne]

I hope you are right that would be a good day. and take care over in Michigan.

[pack3tg0st]

We'll find out in a week if he's outta office...

The election is June 12th.

[WarlordZeroOne]

O.K. been good talkin to ya have a good week-end. regards. Warlord.

[boycotteverything]

biggg bump!
Ahmadinejad will be gone after these next elections...

He's been going head to head with his own government since early 2008...

He'll lose...
Re-reading this thread. It's Amkon at its philosophical best.. But this post made me pee my pants. Anyone who might think that there's no serious discussion happening here ought to consider this thread. (http://amkon.net/when-war-over-got-t21523.html)