Cogburn
05-18-2009, 09:31 PM
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/21875
[offsite:2qy2jlq4]RE: {MPML} Re-revised pseudo-MPECs for Herschel/Planck cluster (long)
> ...plus one more: as Jean-Claude Pelle pointed out, I didn't
> include his 'BoosterA' data. It doesn't link to any of the above
> objects, suggesting a _seventh_ object:
Bill, you are right.
I first announced on the list the confirmation of a 5th object
and a 6th. Then Reiner told about 2 objects he named 5 and 6.
I was fooled by his image, probably because of the parallax
that provides a different perspective as we observe from the
Southern hemisphere.
These 5 and 6 from Reiner are quite bright and have a quite
high motion away from the booster. We were searching specifically
objects with almost the same motion than the other main objects,
then first we missed the objects from Reiner although they were
a lot brighter and obvious and elongated due to their relative
motion. I realized with his second image, where he showed the
increasing distance from the booster, that was absolutely
incompatible with our objects.
In fact Reiner's objects are 7 and 8 in order of discovery or
announce.
I will send you the measures for our 6th object.
But since then, we have found a lot more.
There is something very interesting about these 'new'
and faint objects (at least some of).
In a referential frame attached to Herschel, they follow, in a
few hours a path like the lowercase Greek letter gamma, about
a dozen arcsec height, some "fatter" than other.
It is very well explained by a mix of minute differences in the
orbits (curvature of the apparent path in a fixed frame and motion)
and our high parallax due to our low latitude.
That is, in my opinion, the best proof they are real and not
some artifact, and more they are visible for more than 3 hours.
Note that WMAP, around L2 had also sometimes small loops in its
apparent path.
> Note that it's a short arc, so I doubt the orbit is very good.
> We'll have to hope for a recovery.
There are so many objects, it will become a link issue, but we
have measures for each night then I am quite confident.
> Also, you'll notice that the early observations for Planck,
> "Herschel", "Sylda", and "Booster" are excluded. It looks
> as if all four objects did small maneuvers early on. That
> seems odd to me, but I'm no expert on spacecraft.
I agree, the measures have probably a serious issue with the
timing or the astrometry or both.
> Jean-Claude is also correct in pointing out that the tumbling
> behavior of the object we've been calling "Sylda" makes it likely
> that it is, in fact, Sylda. And the brightness of the "Booster"
> makes it pretty clear that it really is the booster... which lets
> us ID Herschel by elimination.
Yes, Sylda may change by more than 2 magnitudes in 30 seconds.
Our fastest 16" take 90 seconds to rotate by 180 degrees. If a
structure like Herschel tumbled in 30 seconds it will break.
That 2 mag amplitude does not appears in the reported astrometry,
because it becomes almost invisible, and although there is a yet
a quite good estimate of the magnitude the uncertainty of the
astrometry is too large and we have not reported these faint
data points.
We have several hundreds of images then I will build some light
curves. Herschel and Planck have also some changes in magnitude
but they are far slower.
There is more about Herschel. It has a constant offset with the
preliminary orbit, and that offset changes by less than one pixel
in 3 hours. On the contrary Sylda has a significant drift, and
Planck an even larger drift. That is coherent with the way they
were in the rocket.
A few days ago, we saw a very faint dot that that seemed to leave
Sylda in direction of the booster. We estimated the relative
projected motion to about 3 m/second. one of the new objects we
found yesterday between Sylda and the booster is in that direction.
But difficult to claim the dot leaving Sylda was real or not.
Jean-Claude PELLE
Southern Stars Observatories[/offsite:2qy2jlq4]
Several strange objects are currently being tracked around the Herschel/Planck separation. A few of the objects have been tentatively identified, however there are several that remain.
These objects have been witnessed by multiple astronomers in multiple hemispheres. The astronomy newsgroups are all a-flutter.
http://www.minorplanets.org/OLS/Herschel_Planck/
This is one set of UFO sightings that has me particularly interested. So far, it's got the goods.
[offsite:2qy2jlq4]RE: {MPML} Re-revised pseudo-MPECs for Herschel/Planck cluster (long)
> ...plus one more: as Jean-Claude Pelle pointed out, I didn't
> include his 'BoosterA' data. It doesn't link to any of the above
> objects, suggesting a _seventh_ object:
Bill, you are right.
I first announced on the list the confirmation of a 5th object
and a 6th. Then Reiner told about 2 objects he named 5 and 6.
I was fooled by his image, probably because of the parallax
that provides a different perspective as we observe from the
Southern hemisphere.
These 5 and 6 from Reiner are quite bright and have a quite
high motion away from the booster. We were searching specifically
objects with almost the same motion than the other main objects,
then first we missed the objects from Reiner although they were
a lot brighter and obvious and elongated due to their relative
motion. I realized with his second image, where he showed the
increasing distance from the booster, that was absolutely
incompatible with our objects.
In fact Reiner's objects are 7 and 8 in order of discovery or
announce.
I will send you the measures for our 6th object.
But since then, we have found a lot more.
There is something very interesting about these 'new'
and faint objects (at least some of).
In a referential frame attached to Herschel, they follow, in a
few hours a path like the lowercase Greek letter gamma, about
a dozen arcsec height, some "fatter" than other.
It is very well explained by a mix of minute differences in the
orbits (curvature of the apparent path in a fixed frame and motion)
and our high parallax due to our low latitude.
That is, in my opinion, the best proof they are real and not
some artifact, and more they are visible for more than 3 hours.
Note that WMAP, around L2 had also sometimes small loops in its
apparent path.
> Note that it's a short arc, so I doubt the orbit is very good.
> We'll have to hope for a recovery.
There are so many objects, it will become a link issue, but we
have measures for each night then I am quite confident.
> Also, you'll notice that the early observations for Planck,
> "Herschel", "Sylda", and "Booster" are excluded. It looks
> as if all four objects did small maneuvers early on. That
> seems odd to me, but I'm no expert on spacecraft.
I agree, the measures have probably a serious issue with the
timing or the astrometry or both.
> Jean-Claude is also correct in pointing out that the tumbling
> behavior of the object we've been calling "Sylda" makes it likely
> that it is, in fact, Sylda. And the brightness of the "Booster"
> makes it pretty clear that it really is the booster... which lets
> us ID Herschel by elimination.
Yes, Sylda may change by more than 2 magnitudes in 30 seconds.
Our fastest 16" take 90 seconds to rotate by 180 degrees. If a
structure like Herschel tumbled in 30 seconds it will break.
That 2 mag amplitude does not appears in the reported astrometry,
because it becomes almost invisible, and although there is a yet
a quite good estimate of the magnitude the uncertainty of the
astrometry is too large and we have not reported these faint
data points.
We have several hundreds of images then I will build some light
curves. Herschel and Planck have also some changes in magnitude
but they are far slower.
There is more about Herschel. It has a constant offset with the
preliminary orbit, and that offset changes by less than one pixel
in 3 hours. On the contrary Sylda has a significant drift, and
Planck an even larger drift. That is coherent with the way they
were in the rocket.
A few days ago, we saw a very faint dot that that seemed to leave
Sylda in direction of the booster. We estimated the relative
projected motion to about 3 m/second. one of the new objects we
found yesterday between Sylda and the booster is in that direction.
But difficult to claim the dot leaving Sylda was real or not.
Jean-Claude PELLE
Southern Stars Observatories[/offsite:2qy2jlq4]
Several strange objects are currently being tracked around the Herschel/Planck separation. A few of the objects have been tentatively identified, however there are several that remain.
These objects have been witnessed by multiple astronomers in multiple hemispheres. The astronomy newsgroups are all a-flutter.
http://www.minorplanets.org/OLS/Herschel_Planck/
This is one set of UFO sightings that has me particularly interested. So far, it's got the goods.