The Skeptics' Need to Not Know

[JiveTurkey]

During my time on various "conspiracy" themed communities, I have witnessed many a skeptic accuse a "ct'er" of believing any and everything simply because they WANTED to believe everything isn't as it seems.


While I certainly agree that there are many who fall into this category, I personally feel that there are more SKEPTICS who don't believe for the simple reason that they choose not to believe things are any different than what they are told.


Time and time again, government officials have been proven liars and traitors. Yet, the majority still believe the bullshit said officials continue to spew.

Time and time again, random members of society who just happen to oppose said officials suffer mysterious fates. Yet, the majority is very open to the most ridiculous of explanations as long as it allows them to stay in their fantasy world.



It doesn't seem to matter WHICH particular "alternative" subject one is talking about, the majority almost always falls to the "skeptical" or "official story" side while claiming those who are willing to consider the possiblity that things aren't as they seem are lunatics or any other slanderous "word of the hour".



Take 9/11 as an example.

While there may not be any HARDCORE proof of the EXACT events of that day, there is more than enough proof to support that things did NOT happen as we were told they happened.

Basically, the evidence is FAR MORE supportive of the "conspiracy" side of the 9/11 argument than the "official story" side.

Yet, this evidence is continually brushed aside and laughed at by those that simply do not want to believe our ever loving government MIGHT harm it's own citizens.


I can't even begin to count the number of times that I have been witness to a skeptic questioning, "But why would the government do that to it's own people?".

This question is, in most cases, answered promptly by the one who posed it with, "They wouldn't!".


Of course, these people tend to either forget or not believe:


MkUltra
The Tuskeegee Experiments
Agent Orange
Mysterious deaths surrounding the Kennedy assassination
CIA drug trafficking
The "Franklin Cover-up"
The "Operation Northwoods" proposal


just to name a few.



I am personally of the opinion that it is FAR more unwise to TRUST the government and those in "power" than it is to DISTRUST them.

They have a track record of being deceptive to the people and, as such, I feel that the only smart thing that we can do is TREAT THEM as if they are always lying.

I see nothing bad in being wary of those in "power" and nothing good in trusting them.



While I certainly understand that the majority of the population will NOT easily accept certain "conspiracy theories", I find it a bit dangerous to turn away from the ones that have a tremendous amount of supportive evidence that may, in the future, bring harm to them or their loved ones.



Sure, the events of 9/11 themselves may not effect you and yours. But what about the laws that are still being passed as a result?

Sure, violating the civil rights of Joe Schmoe from San Diego may not affect you and yours. But if their civil rights can be so easily violated, can the same not happen to yours?


Let's not forget those who have been victims of "torture" at the hands of certain "groups".

Who cares if Ahman Al Aziz is being waterboarded? He's a terrorist right?


What about the laws currently being passed that allow YOU to be labeled as a terrorist at the government's choosing?

If they can torture 'ol Ahman the terrorist, can they not do the same to you for that half ounce they find stashed in your car?



Sorry if the subject of this thread is getting lost on some of you guys. I hope you can dig through the mess and find the point hahaha.




Jasn

[mojo]

I tend to agree jasn. In fact it wasnt that long ago that when ever the discussion of conspiracy's came up i immediately pictured Mel gibson in his foil apartment, lol, my eye's have since been opened to a whole new world.
I stumbled across conspiracy sites by accident while looking into ancient civs, and whilst i think some CT's are lame i wont discount them until i have done the research myself.
I do think however that intelligent logical sceptics have a very important role to play in any conspiracy discussion, it would otherwise be a "good on ya" backslapping exercise and nothing would be achieved.
As far as believing or trusting politicians i think the opposite has occured in this country, i dont know whether it is just Australians but we have always taken a very dim view of our pollies, except the ones that could skull a jug of beer in less than 15 secionds.

Btw you forgot the LSD experiments that the CIA and other agency's worldwide were involved in, some of the poor bastards they experimented on are still locked away in asylums.

[Yo Mama]

A TRUE skeptic doesn't just dismiss things "because."

That's what debunkers do.

I'm a skeptic. I am willing to evaluate new information, but I haven't been convinced of anything paranormal/supernatural yet, and I simply don't have enough knowledge of some other CTs to have an opinion.

Refer to Skeptical Manifesto (http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/manifesto.html), by Michael Shermer:


But what does it mean to be skeptical? Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.� But this is not a practical position to take. Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, that involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are false. Other claims, such as hypnosis and chaos theory, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion. The key to skepticism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between “know nothing� skepticism and “anything goes� credulity. This manifesto — a statement of purpose of sorts — explores these themes further.

The ones that say no just for the sake of no are debunkers, and not true skeptics.

[JiveTurkey]

1 - I do think however that intelligent logical sceptics have a very important role to play in any conspiracy discussion, it would otherwise be a "good on ya" backslapping exercise and nothing would be achieved.



2 - Btw you forgot the LSD experiments that the CIA and other agency's worldwide were involved in, some of the poor bastards they experimented on are still locked away in asylums.


1. Indeed! I love an intelligent and LOGICAL skeptic. Hence my love for the one formerly known as MM

2. MkUltra :)

[mojo]

1. Indeed! I love an intelligent and LOGICAL skeptic. Hence my love for the one formerly known as MM

2. MkUltra :)

re 1, yes likewise.

re 2, wipe sleep from eye's, oh yes it was the first one you posted. DOH!

:D

[Yo Mama]

Aw, you guys are sweet to say that.

Everybody knows I'm a big bully. :lol:

[mojo]

Aw, you guys are sweet to say that.

Everybody knows I'm a big bully. :lol:

Yes but your OUR bully, and we luv's ya for it. :D

[mojo]

“Me a skeptic? I hope you have proof”

[Bitchkoma]

Bumped for Great Justice?

[mojo]

lol......yes.

[averagejoe]

During my time on various "conspiracy" themed communities, I have witnessed many a skeptic accuse a "ct'er" of believing any and everything simply because they WANTED to believe everything isn't as it seems.


While I certainly agree that there are many who fall into this category, I personally feel that there are more SKEPTICS who don't believe for the simple reason that they choose not to believe things are any different than what they are told.


Time and time again, government officials have been proven liars and traitors. Yet, the majority still believe the bullshit said officials continue to spew.

Time and time again, random members of society who just happen to oppose said officials suffer mysterious fates. Yet, the majority is very open to the most ridiculous of explanations as long as it allows them to stay in their fantasy world.



It doesn't seem to matter WHICH particular "alternative" subject one is talking about, the majority almost always falls to the "skeptical" or "official story" side while claiming those who are willing to consider the possiblity that things aren't as they seem are lunatics or any other slanderous "word of the hour".



Take 9/11 as an example.

While there may not be any HARDCORE proof of the EXACT events of that day, there is more than enough proof to support that things did NOT happen as we were told they happened.

Basically, the evidence is FAR MORE supportive of the "conspiracy" side of the 9/11 argument than the "official story" side.

Yet, this evidence is continually brushed aside and laughed at by those that simply do not want to believe our ever loving government MIGHT harm it's own citizens.


I can't even begin to count the number of times that I have been witness to a skeptic questioning, "But why would the government do that to it's own people?".

This question is, in most cases, answered promptly by the one who posed it with, "They wouldn't!".


Of course, these people tend to either forget or not believe:


MkUltra
The Tuskeegee Experiments
Agent Orange
Mysterious deaths surrounding the Kennedy assassination
CIA drug trafficking
The "Franklin Cover-up"
The "Operation Northwoods" proposal


just to name a few.



I am personally of the opinion that it is FAR more unwise to TRUST the government and those in "power" than it is to DISTRUST them.

They have a track record of being deceptive to the people and, as such, I feel that the only smart thing that we can do is TREAT THEM as if they are always lying.

I see nothing bad in being wary of those in "power" and nothing good in trusting them.



While I certainly understand that the majority of the population will NOT easily accept certain "conspiracy theories", I find it a bit dangerous to turn away from the ones that have a tremendous amount of supportive evidence that may, in the future, bring harm to them or their loved ones.



Sure, the events of 9/11 themselves may not effect you and yours. But what about the laws that are still being passed as a result?

Sure, violating the civil rights of Joe Schmoe from San Diego may not affect you and yours. But if their civil rights can be so easily violated, can the same not happen to yours?


Let's not forget those who have been victims of "torture" at the hands of certain "groups".

Who cares if Ahman Al Aziz is being waterboarded? He's a terrorist right?


What about the laws currently being passed that allow YOU to be labeled as a terrorist at the government's choosing?

If they can torture 'ol Ahman the terrorist, can they not do the same to you for that half ounce they find stashed in your car?



Sorry if the subject of this thread is getting lost on some of you guys. I hope you can dig through the mess and find the point hahaha.




Jasn

If anybody would rather believe that their own govenment would kill their own people instead of a bunch of hyper religious sandy arab bastards, then that is up to them.

[skunk]

You might want to read up on your history of false flag attacks in this country.

[mur]

You might want to read up on your history of false flag attacks in this country.

False flags yes...but to this degree against Americans?

I don't believe the full truth is known about 9/11, but I won't make accusations either.

[boycotteverything]

False flags yes...but to this degree against Americans?

I don't believe the full truth is known about 9/11, but I won't make accusations either.I agree. IMO only fools toss reason in the trash. That's why this place has overcome CT nonsense.

[skunk]

False flags yes...but to this degree against Americans?

I don't believe the full truth is known about 9/11, but I won't make accusations either.

Alleged Use of False Flag Attacks by Intelligence Agencies (http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=western_support_for_islamic_mi litancy)

The above is not exclusive to the United States.

On the left side of the page is a timeline where you can choose what country's (alleged) false flag attacks you wish to view.

Alleged Use of false flag attacks by US intelligence agencies (http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=western_support_for_islamic_ militancy_tmln&western_support_for_islamic_militancy_tmln_alleged _us_false_flag%20_operations=western_support_for_i slamic_militancy_tmln_alleged_us_false_flag_attack s)

Operation Northwoods is of extreme interest. You can read a summary here (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/) and view the declassified PDF file here (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf).

The above source references events that have supposedly already occurred.

What makes it so difficult to imagine another larger, more complex false flag attack couldn't be planned and carried out on US soil?

Lusitania, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Maine, Pearl Harbor the list goes on and on and on with the amount of scape goats our country has used over the course of its existence to go to war.


I agree. IMO only fools toss reason in the trash. That's why this place has overcome CT nonsense.

CT nonsense? What do you think ufology is considered by most people?

[boycotteverything]

CT nonsense? What do you think ufology is considered by most people? The majority opinion is that the phenomenon is real and important.

http://www.freedomofinfo.org/national_poll.html

[mur]

Most of ufology is hopelessly lost.

Certainly it is possible 9-11 was a false flag.

There are many troubling questions that remain.

However to take it to the next step and declare false flag might be taking it a step too far.

I don't believe that every CT about that day is true.

[skunk]

A more recent false flag attempt by Bush and co

EXCLUSIVE: To Provoke War, Cheney Considered Proposal To Dress Up Navy Seals As Iranians And Shoot At Them (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/31/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/)

Speaking at the Campus Progress journalism conference (http://www.campusprogress.org/common/2933/2008-journalism-conference) earlier this month, Seymour Hersh — a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist (http://i4.democracynow.org/2008/6/30/hersh_congress_agreed_to_bush_request) for The New Yorker — revealed that Bush administration officials held a meeting recently in the Vice President’s office to discuss ways to provoke a war with Iran.

In Hersh’s most recent article (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh), he reports that this meeting occurred in the wake of the overblown incident (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/14/iran-speedboats-mullen/) in the Strait of Hormuz, when a U.S. carrier almost shot at (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/07/pentagon-says-us-ships-harassed-by-iranians/) a few small Iranian speedboats. The “meeting took place in the Vice-President’s office. ‘The subject was how to create a casus belli (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh?currentPage=all) between Tehran and Washington,’” according to one of Hersh’s sources.

During the journalism conference event, I asked Hersh specifically about this meeting and if he could elaborate on what occurred. Hersh explained that, during the meeting in Cheney’s office, an idea was considered to dress up Navy Seals as Iranians, put them on fake Iranian speedboats, and shoot at them. This idea, intended to provoke an Iran war, was ultimately rejected:
HERSH: There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war. The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.


Might cost some lives. And it was rejected because you can’t have Americans killing Americans. That’s the kind of — that’s the level of stuff we’re talking about. Provocation. But that was rejected.

Why are we considering false flag attacks?

Because we know they work.

[boycotteverything]

gemstone didn't work out too well for tricky dick.

[skunk]

Most of ufology is hopelessly lost.

Agreed, that was my point.

The phenomenon is real, but the study is completely bullshit.


Certainly it is possible 9-11 was a false flag.

There are many troubling questions that remain.

However to take it to the next step and declare false flag might be taking it a step too far.A proper investigation into 9/11 should have been undertaken by the global community, but everyone jumped on the team amerika band wagon afterwards. And who wouldn't given the circumstances? The US had been attacked by faceless terrorists.

No! Bush knew who it was all along! While reading his children's book upside down, he figured out that Osama bin Laden was the main perpetrator. His father's saudi royal family friend, funded by and trained courtesy of the United States.


I don't believe that every CT about that day is true.

Of course. John Lear's idea of a space weapons platform blowing up the twin towers seems farfetched as well as holograms/tv fakery, but other parts of the official story I have trouble believing.

[skunk]

Remember this thread?

http://amkon.net/since-todays-day-t23731.html?t=23731] (http://amkon.net/since-todays-day-t23731.html?t=23731)

Cogburn kills the thread at the end.

http://amkon.net/showpost.php?p=298878&postcount=40

[boycotteverything]

yeah- i remember you and a couple of other asshats accusing FDR of complicity in mass murder- in just the same way as you make the very same accusations against Bush.

[skunk]

Its much easier to close your ears and go:lalala:

God forbid we'd demote your idols.

[mur]

Agreed, that was my point.

The phenomenon is real, but the study is completely bullshit.

A proper investigation into 9/11 should have been undertaken by the global community, but everyone jumped on the team amerika band wagon afterwards. And who wouldn't given the circumstances? The US had been attacked by faceless terrorists.

No! Bush knew who it was all along! While reading his children's book upside down, he figured out that Osama bin Laden was the main perpetrator. His father's saudi royal family friend, funded by and trained courtesy of the United States.



Of course. John Lear's idea of a space weapons platform blowing up the twin towers seems farfetched as well as holograms/tv fakery, but other parts of the official story I have trouble believing.


I see we agree more than we disagree;)

[boycotteverything]

just as easy for a fucking moron to open his mouth and shout nonsense.

[skunk]

just as easy for a fucking moron to open his mouth and shout nonsense.

Pot to kettle. Come in pot.

[averagejoe]

You might want to read up on your history of false flag attacks in this country.

I might not.

[hp]

A lack of proper investigation, at least it seems that way, usually don't help with the truth.

[averagejoe]

I've heard the tapes from aboard the hijacked planes. We know which mentalist terrorists did the hijack. I'm not American but I find it nauseating that American people would rather believe their own gummint slaughtered 3,000 innocents for what, even though every cunt on planet Earth HATES America and would love to do it damage. Sandy arab terrorists? Yeah, I fooking buy it.

FFS.

[boycotteverything]

I've heard the tapes from aboard the hijacked planes. We know which mentalist terrorists did the hijack. I'm not American but I find it nauseating that American people would rather believe their own gummint slaughtered 3,000 innocents for what, even though every cunt on planet Earth HATES America and would love to do it damage. Sandy arab terrorists? Yeah, I fooking buy it.

FFS.That's too rational, Fr. Occam.

[skunk]

Bin Laden admits to committing 911 attacks Oct 30th 2004 (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html)

Sounds kind of odd bin laden would wait that long considering the "jihad" on the west he's been waging.

Admitting for the first time that he ordered the Sept. 11 attacks, bin Laden said he did so because of injustices against the Lebanese and Palestinians by Israel and the United States.

From fox news.

Not conspiracy central or ats.

[skunk]

I've heard the tapes from aboard the hijacked planes. We know which mentalist terrorists did the hijack. I'm not American but I find it nauseating that American people would rather believe their own gummint slaughtered 3,000 innocents for what, even though every cunt on planet Earth HATES America and would love to do it damage. Sandy arab terrorists? Yeah, I fooking buy it.

FFS.

Do you ever bother checking your receipts when you purchase a product?

[skunk]

The FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm) does not list him as wanted for the 9/11 attacks even though he is on the top 10 most wanted list.

I find that odd as well.

Maybe they don't believe he was responsible?

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

[hp]

Airplanes hit the towers. Funny how the other plane believed to be DC bound is the only one that didn't make it.

[averagejoe]

Do you ever bother checking your receipts when you purchase a product?

No, because I know what I bought.

[boycotteverything]

In November of 2001 (the date of the announcement) they hadn't yet made the case. But it wasn't long in coming, was it?

[Lexion]

In November of 2001 (the date of the announcement) they hadn't yet made the case. But it wasn't long in coming, was it?

I noticed that date, also.

It just hasn't been updated.

Who knows why.

[boycotteverything]

I imagine they wanted to get it right. And I believe they ultimately did. I'm no fan of Bush but to accuse the guy of complicity in the cold blooded murder of 3000 of his fellow citizens is beyond the pale.

[hp]

Dad gummit, if it went down as official reports then we need to get back to bombing and killing the middle east. 8 years gone by when the MIC could have leveled that place in 6 months to a year. May be they are enjoying it as they watch everyone suffer,

[boycotteverything]

Fuck man- they destroyed Iraq in less than a week. The Army did their job well. But then what? Genocide?

[hp]

Still terrorists and new ones volunteering every day. Go figure.

Bush wasn't in on it. He was in remedial reading that day and therefore couldn't have followed all the memos flying around.

[hp]

This is a lesson on making lemonade out of lemons. The US elite are simply taking advantage of the situation. I'm bet the reasoning behind it's ok is 'they started it'.

[boycotteverything]

Bush was rope-a-doped. It's a strategy perfected by the Greatest Muslim of all- Muhammad Ali. That's what we get for electing a dope to begin with.

[hp]

When, as a US citizen, do I get my cut?

[boycotteverything]

Your cut is the same as every other citizen's- death by a thousand cuts.

[hp]

More salt please.

We've come a long way. Hard to believe we a still alive but we are working on overcoming this staying alive situation.

[boycotteverything]

hahaha yeah- might not have to wait much longer now.

[boycotteverything]

I can't shake that cloying feeling that Binny and his Boyz have the death blow in the works for the Great Satan. He has his own NWO vision and we're not part of it.

[skunk]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread342338/pg1





Originally posted by biggie smalls
There have been countless threads implicating Bin Laden and the CIA.

We know from the Afghan war that the US supported the Mujahadeen. That is fact. Was he still on the payroll prior to 911? Well, that is what we are here to find out. The CIA met with him in July of 2001 a few months prior to the 911 attacks. They must have known something was up then.




http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/osama_alias.gif


Osama Bin CIA Agent (http://www.public-action.com/911/ob_cia.html)

When Osama Bin Laden was 'Tim Osman' (http://educate-yourself.org/cn/2001/riconosciutoandtimosman8nov01.shtml)

Same article as above, different source (http://911review.org/brad.com/archives/Bin-Ladin_Tim-Osman.html)

Meeting Riconosciuto and Gunderson at the hotel were two representatives of the mujahadeen, waiting to discuss their armament needs. One of the two was named "Ralph Olberg." The other one was called Tim Osman (or Ossman).

"Ralph Olberg" was an American businesman who was leading the procurement of American weapons and technology on behalf of the Afghan rebels. He worked through the Afghan desk at the U.S. State Department, as well as through Senator Hubert Humphrey's office. Olberg looked after the Afghanis through a curious front called MSH - Management Sciences for Health.

The other man, dressed in Docker's clothing, was not a native Afghan any more than Olberg was. He was a 28-year-old Saudi. Tim Osman (Ossman) has recently become better known as Osama Bin Ladin. "Tim Osman" was the name assigned to him by the CIA for his tour of the U.S. and U.S. military bases, in search of political support and armaments.

Who is Osama Bin Laden? (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html)

US taxpayers send billions to our enemies in Afghanistan (http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2001/tst110501.htm)

1998 interview with Osama (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html)

Bin Laden's CIA roots (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1245.htm)

CIA agent allegedly met Bin Laden in July 2001 (http://www.tenc.net/misc/lefigaro.htm)

Same article as above, different source (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism)

Osama bin Laden falsities (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/binladen_9-11_index.html)



0UGXVic15ho

[hp]

I can't shake that cloying feeling that Binny and his Boyz have the death blow in the works for the Great Satan. He has his own NWO vision and we're not part of it.

That may well be the same feeling the top dudes in the gobment have.

[boycotteverything]

no doubt that's the case. we sit here and wait for what we know will come.

[boycotteverything]

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matthew may have been on to something!

[mojo]

the reason so many americans (and others) believe their government was complicit in 9/11 is the keystone cops nature of their response and investigation surrounding it.

did the us govt have a hand in the attacks.....no.

did certain members or agencies within the us govt have a hand in the attacks or know that the attacks would take place.....possibly.

is the us govt profiting from the death of thousands upon thousands of innocent people since 9/11.......without doubt.

[Oblivion]

Pot to kettle. Come in pot.

not the killer type i hope :o



http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread342338/pg1

got tim ossman?

http://rc-racing.inghams.net/rc-racing/anim-avatar-bkground/got%20security.jpg

[Oblivion]

the reason so many americans (and others) believe their government was complicit in 9/11 is the keystone cops nature of their response and investigation surrounding it.

did the us govt have a hand in the attacks.....no.

did certain members or agencies within the us govt have a hand in the attacks or know that the attacks would take place.....possibly.

is the us govt profiting from the death of thousands upon thousands of innocent people since 9/11.......without doubt.

its also all the shit they spewed afterwards to push for the war.

remember the tora bora deep underground base that resembles what most would call a d.u.m.b.

they have wmd's, they may have wmd's, oh waddya know, they dont have wmd's.. so off to afghanistan we go !

i doubt it was bush.. but i suspect it was a false flag op generated from deep within.

[skunk]

Bump...

[anarch]

also bumped