The Phoenicians and the New World.

[mojo]

Did the phoenicians discover the New World, long before Columbus, the Chinese or the Vikings. It is my belief that they may have traded with Central and South American cultures sometime between 2000bc - 900bc. Unfortunately any evidence from that period is either scientifically unreliable at the present, is thought of as Pseudo science by scholars or is open to different interpretations and is therefore clogged up in debate and argument.
Here is some information on the Phoenician empire from wikipedia as well as some links from other sites to instigate some discussion.

Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia)


The Phoenicians often traded by means of a galley, a man-powered sailing vessel. They were the first civilization to create the bireme. There is still debate on the subject of whether the Canaanites and Phoenicians were different peoples or not


Strabo states that there was a highly lucrative Phoenician trade with Britain for tin. Trade routes from Asia converged on the Phoenician coast as well, enabling the Phoenicians to govern trade between Mesopotamia on the one side, and Egypt and Arabia on the other.


It is often mentioned that Phoenicians ventured north into the Atlantic ocean as far as Great Britain

Ok so it's Herodotus. :)


They also sailed south along the coast of Africa. A Carthaginian expedition led by Hanno the Navigator explored and colonized the Atlantic coast of Africa as far as the Gulf of Guinea; and according to Herodotus, a Phoenician expedition sent down the Red Sea by pharaoh Necho II of Egypt (c. 600 BC) even circumnavigated Africa and returned through the Pillars of Hercules in three years.


There are claims that Phoenician coins can be found as far inland of the United States of America as Nebraska and Oklahoma.[11] These claims have not been published in any scientific journals and, again, there is no widespread acceptance of the validity of this work in the scientific community.

(ok, this site is biased but some of the information is worth a look)

phoenicia.org (http://phoenicia.org/america.html)

The Canary's and the Azores make sense as resupply points if one was planning to sail to the America's.

Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands)


The islands were known to the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans, and are mentioned in a number of classical sources. For example, Pliny the Elder describes a Carthaginian expedition to the Canaries, and they may have been the Fortunate Isles of other classical writers

Lapalma (http://www.ing.iac.es/PR/lapalma/history.html)


It is likely that the first people to discover the Canaries were early Phoenician explorers, originating from Sidon and Tyre in modern-day Lebanon.

There is some further evidence of the Azores having been visited, i'll post that later.
Is it such a stretch to imagine that they could have reached the America's from the Canary's or the Azore's if either of these area's were used as resupply points. I dont believe that they ever attempted to colonize but merely traded with South American and Central American cultures and kept their trade routes secret as they did with all their trading. The Phoenicians are regarded as one of the most skillful and secretive mariners in history..
There are a number of other articles and sites that i have been researching but i dont want to overload this post with everything i have. ;)

Any thoughts?

mojo

[JiveTurkey]

Mr. Mojo,


Are the phoenicians and the fabled "sea kings" one in the same?

I admit, I haven't studied up on this too much, but I do recall reading a ton about the "Sea Kings" and their CRAZY ACCURATE maps dating LONG before anyone was supposed to have touched foot on the "new world"



Jasn

[mojo]

Did you mean the Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples).
I think there may be some connection but i'm in the minority on that :) .
Unfortunately there is not a lot of physical evidence regarding either the Phoenician or the Sea Peoples cultures at this time.
But the phoenicains are generally regarded as being without peer when it came to navigation and sailing skills during that era.

[JiveTurkey]

Nah, I distinctly remember "Sea Kings"


A lot of people claimed the maps were a forgery, still, they were found long before anyone had "officially" mapped out the "new world".


I'll see what I can find in relation to the stories I read way back when and get you a link in here.


Jasn

[mojo]

The 2 maps that spring to mind that are still hotly debated are the Piri Reis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis) map and a map made by a Chinese expedition under the command of Zheng He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He#The_.22Zheng_He_map.22).
See also the 1421 hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421_hypothesis).
There is also a Phoenician coin that supposedly has a world map on it, i'll see if i can find where i hid that link. :lol:

Be nice if you could find something relating to the "sea kings", i did a quick google search but all i got was helicopters, you might have better luck if you can remember a name or something related to the story you heard. :D

mojo.

[Iamsix]

I am from Oklahoma originally. I do remember there being rune stones in the southern part of the state from the vikings. I dont ever remember anything about phoenician coins. I will have to look that up. That would be really interesting.

On a side note. I was watching a program not to long ago and it was talking about how accurate the maps Amerigo had of the N and S Americas and how no one had supposedly been there yet. Could this knowledge have been passed down through the ages to the 1490's?

[mojo]

I was watching a program not to long ago and it was talking about how accurate the maps Amerigo had of the N and S Americas and how no one had supposedly been there yet. Could this knowledge have been passed down through the ages to the 1490's?

I think thats definately possible, but more than likely did not come from the Phoenicians, they were extremely secretive. It is believed that Zheng He's expedition may have mapped the America's in the early 1400's. Check out the 2 links in my previous post "Zheng He" and "the 1421 Hypothesis".

Ok let me give you a quick run down on what i believe happened.
During the prominence of the Phoenicians as maritime traders, roughly 2000bc - 900bc give or take a few century's they (a) either discovered the America's or (b) already knew where the America's were due to knowledge passed down from ancestors.

I think it might have gone something like this, the Phoenicians OWNED the mediterranean and traded right through that area also down the African coast and up the coast to Scandanavia. There is also physical evidence of the Phoenicians trading for tin in Britain, setting up trading points in the Canary's and some circumstantial evidence for them setting up a trading post/resupply point in the Azores.
Now the Azores and the Canary's are very important for any sea going culture of that time wanting to travel to the America's, it would have been difficult if not impossible for them to make that journey without the ability to resupply with fresh water, i think the evidence exists to show that they did know of these islands.
Now its not much of a stretch to imagine that once resupplied they would have been able to continue on their way to the America's from either the Azores or the Canary's.

Next comes evidence of their presence in the New World, once again the evidence is mainly circumstantial but it does start to build a picture of what occured. What needs to be remembered here is that even in area's that we KNOW the phoenicians lived, loved and worked they left very little evidence of their culture behind, it is even more difficult finding physical evidence of their presence in places where the scholars say they never existed.
What we also need to understand about the Phoenicians is that trading was what distinguished them from every other culture of the time, the Egyptians hired phoenicia to work for them, they were that good. Now because this was so important to them they were extremely secretive and superstitious, no maps of phoenician trade routes exist, they hid their travels from every other culture for obvious reasons, they didnt want competition for such a lucrative livelihood, and in the end both wars and competition from other cultures on the high seas is what destroyed their culture.

So basically i believe that the Phoenicians set up trading posts in probably South and Central America, they had resupply point in either the Azores or the Canary's, they traded extensively up and down the West coast of Africa and Europe and had a trading relationship with the Britons for tin.

My first post gives you a basic rundown on the Phoenicians and some little tidbits of information, next comes the interesting stuff. 8)

mojo

[JiveTurkey]

Cool.


I definitely need to get my ass on the ball and read up on my ancient civs.


Here is the "sea kings" maps I was referring to.....or rather a SMALL BIT of information about them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map


The Piri Re'is Map which is believed by some to be based off of maps from the time of the previous ice age.



:smokin:

[mojo]

Ahh yes the Piri Reis map, i linked to it in one of my earlier posts. It is still hotly debated but im a believer that there were definately knowledge of the America's by ancient sea faring civs.

[JiveTurkey]

Same here.

Definite believer.

[Iamsix]

Mojo....Here is a site I found about the rune stone in Oklahoma...It is a pretty interesting read, especially the part about the runes being a cryptic message.

http://www.midwesternepigraphic.org/heavener01.html

[Martian Exile]

Good Monkey, let’s wake up this thread.

It is the pillar of ethnocentric bias to believe that our ancestors were not capable of traveling the world. It is amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it, especially when there are no government ass holes to stop you, or taxes and debt to hold you back.

But herein lies the conspiracy. Any evidence of travel to the new world is suppressed by mainstream thought. Especially the so called “native americans”. They use their newfound wealth from their heathen Mafia controlled enterprises to hire harlot lawyers to steal any anthropological evidence that counters their claim that they were the first swinging dicks on this continent.

Doug Owsley is one of the few mainstream anthropologist who will openly scoff at the “Late Migration Hypothesis”, (also called the “single migration hypothesis”) which states that Man did not enter the new world until recently. Enter two obscure skeletons. (One a well preserved mummy). Neither are ethnically “injun” They are both of the Ainu race, a maritime people who traveled extensively around the Pacific rim, including the Americas. Both gentleman wandered the earth 10,000 years ago. Yet the pesky Injuns, with their ill-gotten gains, caused the expenditure of millions of dollars to suppress the study ot the remains out of fear of loosing their status of being the first ones here. Kudos to Owsley and Stanford of the Smithsonian for their perseverance.

Perhaps if the Army had given out a few more of those army blankets, the science of man would not be so suppressed.

[mojo]

You'll find that there is now solid dna evidence of Polynesian mariners trading with South America as well.
I think it was either a type of fowl or sweet potato or both that has linked the Polynesians with South America, there is also a hypothesis that Australian aborigines may also have reached South America.
Ive seen the articles previously but don't have the links here atm, i'll post them when i get home.

What is also interesting is that the Sumerian civilization in Mesopotamia KNEW that the world was round, and for their time they were extremely good mariners, they were supposedly the first Ziggurat builders, or at least there's are the oldest so far discovered, now what sort of pyramids did the South Americans build. You guessed it Ziggurat's. ;)
The Sumerian civilization flourished from around 3500BC - 2000BC.
Could there knowledge of South America have been passed on to the Phoenicians.
Remember the Phoenicians traded and worked for the Egyptians extensively, and it's thought that Sumer was a major influence on the Egyptian civilization.
When Plato discusses Atlantis, he say's that Solon was shown by Egyptian priests the legend of Atlantis.
Did the Egyptians get this information from the Sumerians. And eventually shared with the Phoenicians.

[Martian Exile]

Mojo,

I spent much of my childhood rummaging around in the ruins of SA. The Oriental influence is astounding. Both my anthropologist stepfather and my anthropology professor had no doubts in their mind that mankind traveled freely in those days, (and for that matter a quarter million years ago) yet both are considered heretics for their daring free thinking.

Here in the US, the free thinkers, IE the Multiple Migration Theory school of thought, call the mainstream idiots the “Clovis Police”. The Injuns finance the Clovis Police with gambling money, and have all but stopped the digs in the US by claiming that the bones are theirs, and sacred. Hogwash. The pre-clovis people are a different race, the Ainu, who beat the Injuns ancestors to the punch by thousands of years.

Thank God the free thinkers can still dig in South America, there they are finding the camps of seafaring people dating back at least 20,000 years. Soon, the Clovis Police and their politically correct ilk will be relegated to the same ash heap as the flat earthers.

[mojo]

Thank God the free thinkers can still dig in South America, there they are finding the camps of seafaring people dating back at least 20,000 years.

Are there any links to their research, i'd love to read it. :)

[Martian Exile]

Mojo,

I find most of the internet suspect for this sort of thing, and get most of my stuff from textbooks. Hence, my lack of quoted references due to the fact that what I read has not been digitized for free access on the net, and to quote it would require typing it by hand. The problem with both cultural and physical anthropology on the net is based on the fact that the net and the new politically correct “out of Africa hypothesis” came in to being at about the same time. (Out of Africa cir. 1990) So most of what you can find for free on the net has been poisoned by by political correctness. This weekend I am making the 300 mile trek to see my wife, and hope to find some of my books. Before then, hear is a link to a resent story on Monte Verde:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_ ... CB53es0NUE (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_sc/earliest_americans;_ylt=AtQ8zOkNOyjSTkXeAjCB53es0N UE)

Monte Verde was a camp of sea faring people who lived there 14,500 years ago. The camp was abandoned after a minor flood of the river covered it in mud during occupation. It was perfectly preserved in peat. It was a sophisticated settlement in that it had wood and hide tent, and other accoutrements of comfortable life. The preservation was astounding. Tent stakes, hides, food, foot prints in the clay, and rope! As one professor put it, nature does not tie overhand knots in rope.

As I find my books I’ll write up more stuff for the forum.

[mojo]

Mojo,

I find most of the internet suspect for this sort of thing, and get most of my stuff from textbooks. Hence, my lack of quoted references due to the fact that what I read has not been digitized for free access on the net, and to quote it would require typing it by hand. The problem with both cultural and physical anthropology on the net is based on the fact that the net and the new politically correct “out of Africa hypothesis” came in to being at about the same time. (Out of Africa cir. 1990) So most of what you can find for free on the net has been poisoned by by political correctness. This weekend I am making the 300 mile trek to see my wife, and hope to find some of my books. Before then, hear is a link to a resent story on Monte Verde:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_ ... CB53es0NUE (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_sc/earliest_americans;_ylt=AtQ8zOkNOyjSTkXeAjCB53es0N UE)

Monte Verde was a camp of sea faring people who lived there 14,500 years ago. The camp was abandoned after a minor flood of the river covered it in mud during occupation. It was perfectly preserved in peat. It was a sophisticated settlement in that it had wood and hide tent, and other accoutrements of comfortable life. The preservation was astounding. Tent stakes, hides, food, foot prints in the clay, and rope! As one professor put it, nature does not tie overhand knots in rope.

As I find my books I’ll write up more stuff for the forum.

Thanks ME.

What do you know of the "Fuente Magne". Not sure of the spelling. See if i can find a link and edit it in. :)

Thanks again man.

[mojo]

a thought.

the book that columbus is claimed to have derived his information regarding "the america's" was phoenician?

translation of the piri rei's map here at sacred texts (http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/pirikey.htm#XIV)

These coasts are named the shores of Antilia. They were discovered in the year 896 of the Arab calendar. But it is reported thus, that a Genoese infidel, his name was Colombo, be it was who discovered these places. For instance, a book fell into the hands of the said Colombo, and be found it said in this book that at the end of the Western Sea [Atlantic] that is, on its western side, there were coasts and islands and all kinds of metals and also precious stones. The above-mentioned, having studied this book thoroughly

this source isn't as accurate as i'd like but i do believe that the possibility of phoenician, or even older maps from the indus or sumer civilizations could have existed.
whether these fragments were copied and captured by the ottomans from various other civilizations is unlikely to be verifiable.

www.world-mysteries.com (http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm)



It appears that accurate information has been passed down from people to people. It appears that the charts must have originated with a people unknown and they were passed on, perhaps by the Minoans and the Phoenicians, who were, for a thousand years and more, the greatest sailors of the ancient world. We have evidence that they were collected and studied in the great library of Alexandria (Egypt) and the compilations of them were made by the geographers who worked there.

[cartoon]

his name was Colombo, be it was who discovered these places.the million or so folks who were already here would beg to differ with that.

[mojo]

thanks for stating the bleeding obvious that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread or the context of the previous post.

[cartoon]

just keeping the record straight. what evidence is there that Columbus either relied upon or was even aware of the Piri?

[cartoon]

also i'd note that there is evidence of Chinese visitation to the New World as long 10,000 years ago.

[mojo]

what evidence is there that Columbus either relied upon or was even aware of the Piri?
ummm none that ive provided. did you read the post and the links. its the translations from the piri reis map that state;

"For instance, a book fell into the hands of the said Colombo, and be found it said in this book that at the end of the Western Sea [Atlantic] that is, on its western side, there were coasts and islands and all kinds of metals and also precious stones."

i'm wondering if the book or map that piri reis talks about could have been an ancient map or tome from the phoenician era.
theres probably fuck all evidence of it.

also i'm also pretty sure the chinese have visited the america's about 3 or 4 thousand years ago as well but im not fucking talking about the chinese am i?

if i wanted to prove the chinese visited the america's id start a thread about it.

[cartoon]

Well maybe the Phoenicians were Chinese. I hear they ate dogs. Never mind. I'll ask Fox. Where is that sorry ass fucker when you need him?

[Cogburn]

From the diary of Christopher Columbus, Tuesday, Sept. 27, 1492:

"This day there was much calm and later it blew and they went on their way west until night. The Admiral began talking to Martín Alonso Pinzón, captain of the other caravel, Pinta, about a chart that he had sent to him on the caravel three days before, on which the Admiral had apparently drawn certain islands in that sea; and Martín Alonso said that they were in that region and the Admiral answered that so it seemed to him, but since they had not encountered them it must have been caused by the currents which always had driven the vessels northeast and that they had not traveled as far as the pilots said. And at this point the Admiral said to send the said chart to him. And it having been sent over by means of some cord, the Admiral began to plot their position on it with his pilot and sailors."

How did Columbus know to pencil in some islands on their charts and how did they know they were off course when they didn't see them?

There's a historical rumor that Columbus followed charts given to him by a Spanish merchant named Alonso Sanchez de Huelva who was in Haiti and the surrounding area nearly a 50 years before Columbus set out with his three ships.

I wonder if that's not the book to which the Piri Reis refers.

[mojo]

@ cog, i sent an email to stephen dutch, the professor who wrote the article on worldmysteries.com debunking the alien tinfoil stuff regarding the piri reis map.
not sure if he'll respond or not but ive got my fingers crossed.

[mojo]

received a reply to my email.

well at least he didn't shoot me down in flames and agreed to the possibility.

actually quite surprised that the guy took the time out to reply, within 24 hours.
very nice gentleman.



Both of the things you mention are possible but unlikely. Documents didn’t last long in ancient times. If anyone could have crossed the Atlantic, the Phoenecians could, but as you note, there’s no real evidence.

Steven I. Dutch
Professor, Natural and Applied Sciences


{edited to remove some contact details}

[Cogburn]

So here's an expert in the subject stating that the Phoenicians had the technological capability, however there's no actual proof that they actually bothered to make the journey.

Find me something that says "Phoenicia was here".

There's still every possibility that they just didn't care to sail that way and thus never did.

[mojo]

actually he's an expert in geology i think, he just has an interest in history like myself.


Find me something that says "Phoenicia was here".


that is what i'm looking for.

there are some interesting finds that point to a phoenician presence in the america's.
the fuente magna for one. just havent had time to follow that up lately.
there's some evidence of their having visited the azores, definate evidence of them making voyages to the canaries and britain.
they sailed around africa, different circumstances i know as land was always within view.

[Cogburn]

Fuente magna? Where the fuck you been hiding that?

Holy shit that's fantastic!


A controversy arose about the cuneiform script on the Fuente Magna. Dr. Alberto Marini, translated it and reported that it was Sumerian.. After a careful examination of the Fuente Magna, linear script Dr. Clyde A. Winters determined that it was probably Proto-Sumerian, which is found on many artifacts from in Mesopotamia. An identical script was used by the Elamites called Proto-Elamite.

Dr. Winters believed that researchers had been unable to read the writing because they refused to compare Proto-Elamite and Proto-Sumerian writing with other writing systems used in 3000-2000 BC. He compared the writing to the Libyco-Berber writing used in the Sahara 5000 years ago. This writing was used by the Proto-Dravidians (of the Indus Valley), Proto-Mande , Proto-Elamites and Proto-Sumerians.

...

He [John A. Halloran] found that the Fuente Magna inscriptions are in the Proto-Sumerian script, and the symbols have several Proto-Sumerian signs joined together to represent words and sentences. He presented two figures that separate the Fuente Magna signs into their constituent parts so they could be interpreted using the phonetic values of the Vai writing he showed the separation of the Fuente Magna signs into their separate parts.

Following is a transliteration of the inscriptions on the right side of the Fuente Magna, reading from top to bottom and right to left.

1. Pa ge gi
2. Mi lu du
3. I mi ki
4. me su du
5. Nia po
6. Pa
7. Mash
8. Nia mi
9. Du lu gi
10 . Ka me lu
11 . Zi
12 . Nan na pa-I

Winters then gave the following translation:

"(1) Girls take an oath to act justly (this) place. (2) (This is) a favorable oracle of the people. (3) Send forth a just divine decree. (4) The charm (the Fuente Magna) (is) full of Good. (5) The (Goddess) Nia is pure. (6) Take an oath (to her). (7) The Diviner. (8) The divine decree of Nia (is) , (9) to surround the people with Goodness/Gladness. (10) Value the people's oracle. (11) The soul (to), (12) appear as a witness to the [Good that comes from faith in the Goddess Nia before] all mankind."

Then the transliteration of the inscriptions on the left side of the Fuente Magna is as follows: .


1. Tu ki a mash pa
2a . Lu me lu ki mi
2b. Pa be ge
3. Zi
4. lu na
5 . ge
6. du po
7. I tu po
8. lu mi du

This section was translated as follows (please see Figure 3)

" (1) Make a libation (this) place for water (seminal fluid?) and seek virtue. (2a) (This is) a great amulet/charm, (2b) (this) place of the people is a phenomenal area of the deity [Nia's] power. (3) The soul (or breath of life). (4) Much incense, (5) to justly, (6) make the pure libation. (7) Capture the pure libation (/or Appear (here) as a witness to the pure libation). (8) Divine good in this phenomenal proximity of the deity's power."

This decipherment of the inscriptions on the Fuente Magna indicates that it was used to make libations to the Goddess Nia to request fertility, and to offer thanks to the bountiful fauna and flora in the area that made it possible for these Sumerian explorers to support themselves in Bolivia.

Of particular interest is that the people of the Fuente Magna, referred to the Goddess as Nia. Nia, is the Linear-A term for Neith. Neith is the Greek name for the Egyptian Goddess Nt or Neit, Semitic Anat. This goddess was very popular among the ancient people of Libya and other parts of Middle Africa, before these people left the region to settle Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley and Minoan Crete.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

+1

[WITCH HUNT]

Mojo, i am posting this link to a book. After you click it, scroll to the bottom and look at the left photo, ... then look at the right photo. Do you see what is in the hands of the man on the sarcophagus? As many times as I have seen these photos I have never put these two together, when I saw this link it hit me like a ton of bricks!

http://www.hookedx.com/

Through out history nations and empires that border each other, trade with each other. Those that border bodies of water trade as far as they can. Not even that super-protectionist Zahi Hawass can deny this! Spices, fabrics and food are not the only things that were traded; shortcuts and replenishment locations were just as valuable. More important in fact!

For me the real question is who was first? First to come to the Americas, and map it!

Damn you Mojo, I was trying to get to bed early tonight! Oh well, another night spent on google!:lol:

[mojo]

Fuente magna? Where the fuck you been hiding that?

haha....dude i have soooooo fucking much stuff on my hard drive its not fucking funny.
i just aren't very good at organising it properly.
the fuente magna is probably the most solid piece of evidence of old world visitation, whether its phoenician or mesopotamian or elamite or whatever.

i was thinking of indexing all of the evidence, numbered and annotated to suggest its evidentiary value. ie, verified, unverified, circumstantial, anecdotal, etc etc.

i've got some other cool bits i havent thouroughly vetted yet.

the coin mark mcmenniman found with the map of the world on it. ( i think this guy might have some relationship to BYU so i havent followed it up with much interest but maybe i should.

[GeneralStriker]

The Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Polynesians, the Persians all had pretty good boats in ancient times. Were they here too? Musta been quite a party- a shot right out of the bar-room scene in Star Wars.

[mojo]

The Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Polynesians, the Persians all had pretty good boats in ancient times. Were they here too? Musta been quite a party- a shot right out of the bar-room scene in Star Wars.

well its been proven that the polynesians visited the new world. as for the others i wouldnt be surprised.

[mojo]

@witch hunt. heres a coast to coast interview with that author regarding the hooked X.

i4d0GJ-C3-I

[mojo]

imho the fuente magna cuneiform looks remarkably similar to sumerian cuneiform or proto sumerian cuneiform.
very difficult to deny the similarities.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/mojo4sale/FUENTE-CUNEIFORM.jpg

[skunk]

Looks identical. Has the fuente magna been verified as authentic?

[theeindiee]

What about Jesus? According to John Smith, Jesus was a Native American too.

[skunk]

http://ancientx.com/images/fuente_magna.jpg

There's several different languages on the fuente magna.

http://ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=52&z=1

[theeindiee]

All written by Jews.

[mojo]

i dont think its several languages skunk im more inclined to believe its some sort of proto-cuneiform from the mesopotamian region.

[Cogburn]

Well it obviously contains two distinct languages, as also noted by the website skunk linked.

The fact that established ancient writing styles were actually useful in deciphering the meaning of scribbles should end the argument completely.

The statistical improbability of a language so complex as cuneiform developing nearly identically at two different places and times is simply astronomical.

http://www.motivationalpostergallery.com/posters/Never%20tell%20me%20the%20odds.jpg

Sounds like proof to me.

[skunk]

The link isn't the best...I only shared it because that's where I found the enlarged picture of the fuente magna.

If you look at the top, you will see there's a link to information on planet x :)

[Cogburn]

Hahah, fair enough.

However, one can still see two distinct patterns of writing: one with the triangular sections closed, and one that leaves them opened.

[mojo]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/02/the-others-could-travel-by-sea/



Crete has been an island for more than five million years, meaning that the toolmakers must have arrived by boat. So this seems to push the history of Mediterranean voyaging back more than 100,000 years, specialists in Stone Age archaeology say. Previous artifact discoveries had shown people reaching Cyprus, a few other Greek islands and possibly Sardinia no earlier than 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.
The oldest established early marine travel anywhere was the sea-crossing migration of anatomically modern Homo sapiens to Australia, beginning about 60,000 years ago. There is also a suggestive trickle of evidence, notably the skeletons and artifacts on the Indonesian island of Flores, of more ancient hominids making their way by water to new habitats.
…
The 130,000-year date would put the discovery in a time when Homo sapiens had already evolved in Africa, sometime after 200,000 years ago. Their presence in Europe did not become apparent until about 50,000 years ago.
Archaeologists can only speculate about who the toolmakers were. One hundred and thirty thousand years ago, modern humans shared the world with other hominids, like Neanderthals and Homo heidelbergensis. The Acheulean culture is thought to have started with Homo erectus


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/science/16archeo.html?8dpc

Early humans, possibly even prehuman ancestors, appear to have been going to sea much longer than anyone had ever suspected.
That is the startling implication of discoveries made the last two summers on the Greek island of Crete. Stone tools found there, archaeologists say, are at least 130,000 years old, which is considered strong evidence for the earliest known seafaring in the Mediterranean and cause for rethinking the maritime capabilities of prehuman cultures.


Even more intriguing, the archaeologists who found the tools on Crete noted that the style of the hand axes suggested that they could be up to 700,000 years old. That may be a stretch, they conceded, but the tools resemble artifacts from the stone technology known as Acheulean, which originated with prehuman populations in Africa.
More than 2,000 stone artifacts, including the hand axes, were collected on the southwestern shore of Crete, near the town of Plakias


But archaeologists and experts on early nautical history said the discovery appeared to show that these surprisingly ancient mariners had craft sturdier and more reliable than rafts. They also must have had the cognitive ability to conceive and carry out repeated water crossing over great distances in order to establish sustainable populations producing an abundance of stone artifacts.



Imo any suggestion that the Phoenicians or an even earlier culture would not have been able to sail to the America's a few thousand years ago is now completely redundant.
There should be no doubt whatsoever that humans were particulalry skilled up to 100,000 years ago to build and navigate craft across open sea's.

[mojo]

Bump for Lex. Cant reply in wits thread because he's a chickenshit little bitch.




Crete isn't that big an island.

I wonder why this hasn't been
found, before.

The discovery was made a while ago lex, my original post was back in march i think and i believe the initial discovery was a good 18 months prior to that.
imo the most amazing thing about the discovery is the possibilities it raises regarding ancient humans maritime abilities.
i found the above article while looking for information on ancient trans oceanic voyages.

[Lexion]

Excellent bump.

[boycotteverything]

and this from the same guy who advised us never to drag horny wombats home by their legs cuz their pussies fill up with dirt?

[Lexion]

Good advice, I think.

[boycotteverything]

yeah. that's why we keep the guy around.

[WITCH HUNT]

For the new members; Everything you wanted to know about the Phoenicians, but were too busy looking for Porn to find out!

Z-U8wM3Gp9g

Also here: http://history-world.org/phoenicians.htm

[skunk]

Bump for Lex. Cant reply in wits thread because he's a chickenshit little bitch.

I asked him to take you off ignore, I think I even said please lol.

[mojo]

i dont want him to take me off ignore tbh skunk.
90% of his threads are just copy and paste shit anyway, and like the other thread about 3 year old news.
if by chance he does post something worth discussing i'll just revive someone elses thread where its already been posted. :)

[KIWI]

i dont want him to take me off ignore tbh skunk.
90% of his threads are just copy and paste shit anyway, and like the other thread about 3 year old news.
if by chance he does post something worth discussing i'll just revive someone elses thread where its already been posted. :)

where the fuck have you been??? ... no xmas phone-call???? .. no drunken abusive call at New Years ????????? ... jeeeeziz, Um getting worried! ;)

any -hoo, have a look at this .... its a great bit of Aus adventure in its own right, but check out the rock-drawings(?) at the 3:41 mark (and the few shots just prior) , it looks fresh but wtf is it? , aborigine geometry? ..
nothing is explained but I wonder if maybe they are describing the journey this expedition was undertaking in their native symbolic way????? .... seen anything like this before?

y3NfoPuTdPI

[mojo]

where the fuck have you been??? ... no xmas phone-call???? .. no drunken abusive call at New Years ????????? ... jeeeeziz, Um getting worried! ;)

any -hoo, have a look at this .... its a great bit of Aus adventure in its own right, but check out the rock-drawings(?) at the 3:41 mark (and the few shots just prior) , it looks fresh but wtf is it? , aborigine geometry? ..
nothing is explained but I wonder if maybe they are describing the journey this expedition was undertaking in their native symbolic way????? .... seen anything like this before?

y3NfoPuTdPI

hey mate. xmas spent with kids, boxing day extremely drunk, fell off my kids rip stick and face planted the pavement.
new years i spent off the grid with a friend.
just back into the swing.
you know you could have called too!! :) j/k

@ the rest of your post theres a place in queensland, not sure where, that some have suggested contains evidence of phoenician settlement.
pretty difficult to find any concrete evidence, lots of that stuff hasd been "claimed" to have been debunked.

[KIWI]

hey mate. xmas spent with kids, boxing day extremely drunk, fell off my kids rip stick and face planted the pavement.
new years i spent off the grid with a friend.
just back into the swing.
you know you could have called too!! :) j/k

@ the rest of your post theres a place in queensland, not sure where, that some have suggested contains evidence of phoenician settlement.
pretty difficult to find any concrete evidence, lots of that stuff hasd been "claimed" to have been debunked.

the rip-stick!! .. man those little fuckers are lethal!! ,... good effort :D

queensland huh? ... I will nose about, ..... I think Aus and its outback are undersold in the field of ancient mystery,.. Im still keen to find that "stonehenge" area Len Beadell found while surveying for A-bomb sites ... did you ever speak to your granny about your dads bizzo with Len? ... happy new year to you and yours btw :cool:

and give Rich a slap when you see him next! ..cheers!:rasta:

[boycotteverything]

and also either empty out those wombats or get yourself a leather condom.

[KIWI]

and also either empty out those wombats or get yourself a leather condom.

yeah! ... like back in your day a man! :D

QT20SjCrlBI

[mojo]

i think i may have covered parts of this article in another thread in regards to the settlement of the indonesian archipeligo by homo erectus across open water. nonetheless it adds to the growing circumstantial evidence that not only homo saps but our ancestral cousins were also making open water voyages many hundreds of thousands of years ago.
imo the idea that such skillful mariners like the phoenicians could not have reached the new world pales in comparison.

http://amazingdata.com/homo-erectus-crosses-the-open-ocean/


Robert G. Bednarik and the First Mariners Project of the International</SPAN> Institute of Replicative Archaeology in Australia have conducted exceptional research to find the earliest mariners. Bednarik studies H.erectus in Indonesia and the origins of marine navigation. He has published widely in both peer reviewed academic journals and venues aimed at the general public.
H.erectus has long been known in Indonesia on the island of Java, with earliest fossils dating to 1.51-1.10 million years ago. H. erectus could walk to Java on the Sunda Shelf, that now submerged continental land mass that connected the Malay Peninsula, Kalimantan, Borneo, Sumatra and Java with broad valleys. Sundaland, which is an extension of continental Asia, and the Sunda Continental Shelf did not extend further east than Java. When lower sea levels allowed Sunda to be dry land over a vast area, Australia and New Guinea were also joined by a large shallow land bridge to form the continental land mass known as Sahul

Nonetheless, areas of open ocean remained between the eastern edge of Sunda and the western edge of Australasia throughout the late Pliocene and Pleistocene. Typical Southeast Asian wildlife does not extend beyond the Wallace Line. The Lesser Sunda Islands had distinctive animals that included both full size and dwarf elephants. In these waters there are islands that were always surrounded by ocean during the time period of H. erectus. If there is evidence for H. erectus on these ocean islands more than 500,000 years ago, then we have found history’s earliest mariners.
The Wallace Line marks the edge of the Asian and Sunda continental shelf. It lies between the islands of Nusa Tenggara (Lesser Sunda Islands) such as Borneo, Sulawesi (Celebes), Bali and Lombok. This natural boundary was first noticed by Alfred Russel Wallace, a British Naturalist who conceived a Theory of Evolution coincident with that of Charles Darwin. Considering that the water distance between Bali and Lombok is only 35 km, the ‘hardness’ of the Wallace Line is impressive.

[13erk0witz]

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[mojo]

Excavations in the cave of Ghar Dalam, in the south-eastern corner of Malta, carried out by Dr. Giuseppe Despott, curator of the Natural History Museum of the University of Malta, working for a research committee of the British Association, has brought to light the remains of Neanderthal man in that island, thus extending the distribution of this species to another continent;


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v101/n2543/abs/101404a0.html

How would Neandertals reach Malta. If they were capable of open sea crossings then that is just more evidence to suggest that early humans and in particular phoenicians much later were capable of making the crossing from europe/africa to the america's.

[mojo]

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html


The Los Lunas Inscription is an abridged version of the Decalogue or Ten Commandments, carved into the flat face of a large boulder resting on the side of Hidden Mountain, near Los Lunas, New Mexico, about 35 miles south of Albuquerque. The language is Hebrew, and the script is the Old Hebrew alphabet, with a few Greek letters mixed in.



In 1996, Prof. James D. Tabor of the Dept. of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina - Charlotte, interviewed the late Professor Frank Hibben (http://www.adamsguns.com/hibben.htm) (1910-2002), a retired University of New Mexico archaeologist, "who is convinced that the inscription is ancient and thus authentic. He reports that he first saw the text in 1933. At the time it was covered with lichen and patination and was hardly visible. He was taken to the site by a guide who had seen it as a boy, back in the 1880s." (Tabor 1997) (http://www.unitedisrael.org/loslunas.html) At present the inscription itself is badly chalked and scrubbed up. However, Moorehouse compares the surviving weathering on the inscription to that on a nearby modern graffito dating itself to 1930. He concludes that the Decalogue inscription is clearly many times older than this graffito, and that 500 to 2000 years would not be an unreasonable estimate of its age.